Supreme Court Legalizes Gay Marriage

[crystal_pidgeot]

OK, with all due respect @crystal_pidgeot, please actually do some research into religion and the like! As a disclaimer I'm not part of any religion, I'm not going to say that I'm not religious because I have religious beliefs, but I'm my own set of ideals.

I do a lot of research on religion and how it plays a role in America. Also I've been hearing a lot about non religious, religious people.

First of all, you have said multiple times that Christians living their lives over something which isn't proven beyond a doubt is worrying. Well for many Christians His existence is actually proven.

Where's the paper that was peered reviewed at? I would love to read it. The things about the Sun is we can all see it. If something like our eternal soul was on the line, clear, crystal evidence should be enough to prove it. nothing short of God showing himself would do.

The most convincing argument in my opinion (of course this is subjective which the "best" argument is) is the teleological argument. The teleological argument states that the world we live on right now is so intrinsically designed that it must have been just that -- designed.

Okay, I'll do this with you. 60% of the Earth is uninhabitable by human life. What we can live on is it, the remaining 40%. Everything on Earth wants us dead but we survive because we build a system in which we can thrive. We "designed" our world so we can live. Look at America versus some third world country.

To be designed it must have had a designer, and the only thing powerful enough to create the universe is God. Thus God exists. It also comes with an analogy: Let's say you find a watch lying on the ground. It is full of complex clockwork and difficult design, so it would be completely foolish to think that this piece of machinery just came together by chance, wouldn't it? The universe is like that watch.

Oh, the Watchmaker Argument, I like this one. The universe is chaotic and has no order. Sure it looks that way but there isn't none. The Universe we live it is do deadly, how life happened is beyond me. If I find a watch on the floor, I know it was design with intelligence (human) because we live in a world where everything is made. Same goes for a painting must have a painter and a building must have a maker, if you're going to go there next. A universe however has no proof there was a creator involved because in order to create something as complex as a universe, the maker must be more complex right? If that the case, who made God? Who made the God that created God? Was it a Super God? Then who made the Super God, a Super, Super God. That meant the God that made the God must be more complex right?

Lets use a 3DS for this example, would you assume it came together by chance? No you won't because the internet exist. You can Google "Nintendo" and see patents for that model, see other picture, ect, just like you can do with the watch. If the watch I find is a Rolex, I can search it. There is plenty of information available to me to search on and find out its origins. Have you heard of Occam's Razor? If not, please look it up, this is a teaching lesson here but in a nutshell is states "what is the most likely answer" That the universe could come into existence by explainable laws (there is lots of evidence of this) or that a spaceless, timeless Omnipotent God created everything with foreknowledge that his perfect plan would fail do to a talking snake and then follow through it anyway?

For me personally I don't believe in a God like what is spoken of in a specific religion, but it is quite a convincing argument, no? Obviously there are counter arguments like natural disasters and evil in general, but then again Christians teach that that was let unto the world when Adam and Eve ate the forbidden apples in the Garden of Eden. This argument isn't foolproof else everyone would believe in God, but it's not half bad, and for that many Christians combine arguments like the above with their own faith and decide that there is enough proof to definitely say a God exists.

A few things things. A God is not convincing. With the amount of problems in the world such as death, natural disasters, disease, birth defects, hunger, ect would be a perfect counter argument since God can remove these without effort. After all we can deal with most of these. Another thing is evil is completely subjective and is different from person to person. My version of Evil may be different from yours, though we have a common rule of what works for a modern society. In the Garden of Eden, Adam knew not to eat from the Tree of knowledge of Good and Evil bu Eve did not receive that instruction, since she was created after God told it to Adam. Even if Adam did eat from the tree, he did not know what "good and evil" was before that so why punish a being that did not have a concept of it?

The Pokedex is also a very good tool and proof of the existence of Pokemon. If an ignorant people somehow came across a Pokedex from Walmart and used it and has no idea what the natural world is, to them Pokemon would exist but because they think they do, it does not make it so.

There are other specific examples relating to Christian beliefs. For example, when I was younger (4-7 years old) I had a dangerously cancerous tumour on my kidney or thereabouts, I don't remember exactly rn. I was in and out of hospital endlessly and all the time both my Mum's side of the family and my Dad's side of the family and basically everyone they knew would prey for me at church (for reference they are Mormon and Church of England respectively). One day, I had some more routine scans and the doctor came out and said "this is funny; the tumour's gone!" and to this day both sides of my family still think that their praying saved my life. If I weren't interested in religion I could well think that a God saved my life too, buuuuuut I'm a bit of a loose cannon so I don't stick to traditional Gods like that. The point is that many Christians have these "miracles" and these affirm their faith in God, proving his existence to them.

So because it went away that means a God did it? There are no other explanations for this at all? These things have been recorded to just go away and no one know why but why save one life when a tidal wave kills thousands? Did you take any medication, change your diet, etc?

Other Christians also say that it would be extremely bad for God to prove himself. If you've ever seen Bruce Almighty, you'll know that God is not allowed to take free will away from anything. In a way, God coming down to Earth and proving himself beyond a doubt would be taken or rights to believe in atheism and polytheism away from us, which is not what God should do.

The thing about Free Will is its completely wrong. God revealed himself to Noah, Moses and other people. If you're a Mormon, then God AND Jesus reveled themselves to Joseph Smith, yet their free will wasn't changed. What about the Tower of Babel? All the workers of it had their free will violated when God destroyed the tower and then changed each of their languages so they could not understand each other. Going back to Moses, God told him to go to Egypt to free the Jews, yet God made the Pharaoh tell Moses no, he would not free then.

If God did choose to reveal himself, we still have the choice to worship that God or not and based on the bible, I would say he wouldn't be worth my time. Sure I won't be an atheist anymore since there is now proof but not much would change. God showed himself all through the bible, why not now when one can argue the world need him now more then ever.

My point is that you really need to do some research into your beliefs, because right now your opinions seem extremely narrow and closed-minded, no offense meant.

I have done the research. I just wish others did as well.

And please think about what you are saying. For example, this:

is total speculation. bbninjas knows about this topic more than you do. Growing up in a Mormon family I can say that I know about this topic more than you do. I have been able to be taken to my Mum's house instead of going to church many times. Do you actually know many Christians IRL?

I was very religious, up till I was about 13. I do to this day have many religious friends and now I actively talk to Mormons. Did you know that Blacks in the Church of the Latter Day Saints of Jesus Christ could not hold the priesthood and if they wanted it (as well as go to heaven) they had to be servant to a white man? Of course if they wanted to get their tax exempt status, they had to remove that rule but it just so happened that God told him to abolish it the next day (or some day around that time). Did you also know that all black people alive today are destined for hell because they remained neutral in the conflict between Jesus and Satan? If you're a Mormon anyway. In other parts of Christianity, black skin is the sign of Cane. You can Google it though.

Also I found it strange when you said two things in this post:


I support feminism (read: not feminazism) and I'm male? You can support whatever the hell you want lol. I support not culling badgers (which I could do another whole separate rant about but I'll spare you) and I'm not a badger...

Well I said this because I don't know what its life to be gay so I can support it in that regards but I support those who are involved in it. I also don't support feminism, because they dont want equality. I support equal rights for all no matter your age, race, gender or religious beliefs.

Geez, don't take Philosophy and Ethics/Religious Education in school, you won't enjoy it.

I have taken a Business Ethics class in school and it was one of the best classes I've ever taken. It was simply amazing to see so many different views. Philosophy is also another favorite of mine. I have not taken a religion clash but I'm sure I would enjoy it as well.

Also, what do you consider makes a fact "proven"? Earlier this year we taught in school that smoking cannibis (and strangely only cannibis as opposed to other drugs) more often than not leads to depression. I know that this is untrue, and actually my teacher made it clear that she also thought it was untrue (though not outright saying it because she would have been fired), but it must be taught because some scientists somewhere came to the conclusion through a bit of data that it is a fact. This is the only time I've ever actually been taught anything that's untrue, and I can see why they would want to dissuade kids from taking drugs, but even still, it's teaching lies. Should that be being taught? There is apparently ample scientific data to back it up.

There is a difference between proven, testable facts versus biased agenda. Cannabis as illegal because at the time when racism was around, this was outlawed to oppress the community that used it (blacks and Hispanics). The whole War on Drugs things was just misinformation and lies. Looking at any scientific papers on the substance would quickly debunk this but those who were told it was bad grew up with those ad campaigns ran (your parent generation). Unbiased sources for information should be taught.

I did not want to drop this because it was completely irrelevant but it was asked so I answered.

 

[crystal_pidgeot]

I pretty sure you're venturing into unknown. You said that you won't take offense, so I feel I have right to say this: you need to do your research. I know a lesbian couple from church. They praise God and I feel they have every right to (no this doesn't mean I accept it). Effectively you are saying this couple (basically who you are arguing for) has no right to go to church, name themselves Christian or praise God.

I do a lot of research on this and sure, I can always do more, we all can. I also know there are homosexual religious people. What I'm saying with my current reasoning is why would someone support an idea that is completely against them from conception.

The Bible is open to interpretation. How you interpret it is ultimately up to you. Please refer/consider to the post marking my involvement in this thread if you wish to discuss the topic of the Bible further with me.

I read it as its printed since in most cases its pretty clear.

This simply means Creation (no, this is not 'Creation Science'. If you are indeed an Atheist who knows the Bible you will know what I am talking about) is taught as believed by the majority of Christians. Whether that clashes to what you/other people think Evolution is, that is up to you.

Well Evolution is a proven fact, Creation is not. I know people think this does not clash but it does.

Homophobia will be evident everywhere, same with racism even after 100 years, in Public and Private schools alike. I have seen it. Religion does not change wtv-phobia. Also, if as an Atheist you don't care about this, than I kindly ask you to refrain from discussing further as it feels hollow and unworthy of my time.

This like this is almost exclusively religious in nature and what I meant about Atheist not caring was suppose to mean that to use, we don't care if someone is homo or hetero as it does not directly affect us.

Disclaimer: Post above is not meant to be offensive to any person and has been written in a harder tone under the assumption crystal_pidgeot will not take offense as he stated previously.

I did not take offense to any of it.

 

[Chaos Jackal]

You can't claim to be a Christian and not care about the teachings and such. That doesn't make since to me. I'm an atheist because I question and researched my religious beliefs. I'm an atheist because I respect mankind. I don't love people I dont know but I can respect them. I respect people enough to fight for their rights to be protected (yours as well).

Do excuse me for taking so long to reply, but it was already late and I had to sleep.

I don't think you understood what I said. I was baptized as a baby; I never had a choice in the matter. What happens with that is that I am, technically, part of the Orthodox church. That by default means I accept anything and everything the church says? Or does it prevent me from not believing? I don't believe in a god, and a dip when I couldn't even talk won't change that.

Why is that? They haven't demonstrated that Hell even exist to be threatening people with it. In their eyes they have something the rest they do. You do know there are some Christians who think you're going to Hell too right? I believe that we should live the life we know for sure we get and make the lives of others as good as they can be.

I obviously know some think I'm going to hell. I'm a non-believer. What can I say, I hope they serve beer in hell and that it has nice concerts, if it exists. Maybe even a sinner girl or two. But that, again, doesn't mean they don't have the right to believe in hell, or think that you and I will burn. As you said, we should live the life we know we have in the way we think we should. If that life is directed by future punishment or reward, it's their choice. And they have every right to tell you that you're wrong and they're right, just as you have. As long as neither of you is trying to beat up the other, an opinion is an opinion. They say you'll burn. You say they're idiots. All's well. We can agree you disagree.

My question is why would someone be offended at all by a gay parade? Outside of religious beliefs, would they still feel that way? If they said no then it means they are more moral than their God and only say such things because of religion and if they say yes (in most cases they have to) then that mean they are doing so because they have to protect their belief systems. There is no reason to despise a homosexual relationship, just like there is no reason to despise a blue car, unless some bias exist towards it. (some one they knew was hit by a blue car). I don't despise the thought of following a religion, people can do what they want but what I don't get are those who follow those belief systems, have their own personal belief and read the bible (I personally don't think they have) and see where it clearly says what to do and not to do, yet still chose to belong to the religion know it conflicts with their beliefs.

You don't have to be a religious person to despise gay relationships. I don't know how religious Americans are, but here most people definitely aren't religious. However, it doesn't mean they're gonna accept homosexuals. From their view, it's abnormal, a mistake. A man goes with a woman, period. You can despise a blue car because you don't like blue; similarly, you can despise gay relationships because you consider them downright wrong. Even if the Bible didn't exist at all, there would still be discrimination against homosexuals. Maybe not as much, but quite a lot. For most, religion is just an excuse; the truth of it is that they simply can't accept something so different and weird to their eyes.

Like I said before, you can support or defend the right of the LGBT community but that means nothing if you subscribe to a religion that teaches and preaches the exact opposite.

Religion can evolve and adapt with the times. You can belong to a religion, support the LGBT community, and try to change archaic views that may be contained within it. The world changes.

I don't think it was derailed. I feel its very relevant to the topic. The only reason this is a controversial as it is is because on one hand, we give rights to a large group of people and on the other, it conflicts with religious rights.

It doesn't conflict with religious rights. It's a different belief. And we're all entitled to our beliefs.

As I've repeatedly said, I'm not religious and I have no problem whatsoever with homosexuals, as long as they're not insisting on hitting on me (which, with my character and average looks, is pretty much impossible). But like you, I consider myself someone who upholds human rights, and right now I believe you aren't doing the same. You don't see the matter as broadly as you should, and you've found a punching bag in religion. It's not religion, it's the people. Religion is a man-made invention to explain the unexplained and keep people in check with the promise of candy if they behave or fire if they don't. It's a means to justify some things as well as trying to uphold morality (when properly used). But religion or no religion, people will still fear and dislike the different. You don't need a book to tell you you're right and they're not; you wrote the book because you believed that in the first place.

 

[bbninjas]

I do a lot of research on this and sure, I can always do more, we all can. I also know there are homosexual religious people. What I'm saying with my current reasoning is why would someone support an idea that is completely against them from conception.

This is the only part I'm going to bother with, as every other is other unrelated to the thread topic or is effectively me restating what I've already said, and thus holds not discussion value (many of CJ's points above I agree with anyway).
When you take stereotype Christianity from the mix, you will understand that by calling yourself a Christian you are not automatically forced to succumb to whatever a person has translated from the Bible, whether that be accepting homosexuality or not. The Bible is open for interpretation as much as you may disagree, but I do think there was an original intention that someone cannot state as fact (or this is what this means), which is why there is the option of interpretation.

 

[crystal_pidgeot]

Do excuse me for taking so long to reply, but it was already late and I had to sleep.

I don't think you understood what I said. I was baptized as a baby; I never had a choice in the matter. What happens with that is that I am, technically, part of the Orthodox church. That by default means I accept anything and everything the church says? Or does it prevent me from not believing? I don't believe in a god, and a dip when I couldn't even talk won't change that.



I obviously know some think I'm going to hell. I'm a non-believer. What can I say, I hope they serve beer in hell and that it has nice concerts, if it exists. Maybe even a sinner girl or two. But that, again, doesn't mean they don't have the right to believe in hell, or think that you and I will burn. As you said, we should live the life we know we have in the way we think we should. If that life is directed by future punishment or reward, it's their choice. And they have every right to tell you that you're wrong and they're right, just as you have. As long as neither of you is trying to beat up the other, an opinion is an opinion. They say you'll burn. You say they're idiots. All's well. We can agree you disagree.



You don't have to be a religious person to despise gay relationships. I don't know how religious Americans are, but here most people definitely aren't religious. However, it doesn't mean they're gonna accept homosexuals. From their view, it's abnormal, a mistake. A man goes with a woman, period. You can despise a blue car because you don't like blue; similarly, you can despise gay relationships because you consider them downright wrong. Even if the Bible didn't exist at all, there would still be discrimination against homosexuals. Maybe not as much, but quite a lot. For most, religion is just an excuse; the truth of it is that they simply can't accept something so different and weird to their eyes.



Religion can evolve and adapt with the times. You can belong to a religion, support the LGBT community, and try to change archaic views that may be contained within it. The world changes.



It doesn't conflict with religious rights. It's a different belief. And we're all entitled to our beliefs.

As I've repeatedly said, I'm not religious and I have no problem whatsoever with homosexuals, as long as they're not insisting on hitting on me (which, with my character and average looks, is pretty much impossible). But like you, I consider myself someone who upholds human rights, and right now I believe you aren't doing the same. You don't see the matter as broadly as you should, and you've found a punching bag in religion. It's not religion, it's the people. Religion is a man-made invention to explain the unexplained and keep people in check with the promise of candy if they behave or fire if they don't. It's a means to justify some things as well as trying to uphold morality (when properly used). But religion or no religion, people will still fear and dislike the different. You don't need a book to tell you you're right and they're not; you wrote the book because you believed that in the first place.

Not going to reply to all of the post because I agree with a lot that you said but Christianity is a religion that made claims on how the natural world works and if you read the bible, you'll know thats false. This isn't simply a book but a way of like and the literal word of God. Changing things in it to fit the time is very dangerous because you can put in an remove what you want. This directly affects the beliefs of those subscribe to the religion. Who to say one day the bible is changed to say something like "and it was told that the future will have transcend the heavens to see what God had created for them and explore"? 2000 years down the line that verse will be very hard to disprove and because we can travel space, that would almost prove God.

For the last part, most see homosexual marriage as an attack on what marriage is and this tends to only come from the religious side. Not saying non religious people can't think this way but most don't even care about. I would say like 1% of the non-religious people dont care. No proof of that or anything buts thats about how small that number is.

 

[crystal_pidgeot]

This is the only part I'm going to bother with, as every other is other unrelated to the thread topic or is effectively me restating what I've already said, and thus holds not discussion value (many of CJ's points above I agree with anyway).
When you take stereotype Christianity from the mix, you will understand that by calling yourself a Christian you are not automatically forced to succumb to whatever a person has translated from the Bible, whether that be accepting homosexuality or not. The Bible is open for interpretation as much as you may disagree, but I do think there was an original intention that someone cannot state as fact (or this is what this means), which is why there is the option of interpretation.

Don't you see a problem with that? No other book acts this way. There are many passages in the bible that are clear as day. The part that says not to cut your hair or shave your beard, whats that really mean because to me, its pretty clear. The part about stoning unruly is pretty clear since we know what stoning is. Is love thy neighbor up for interpretation? I'm a little confused here. Now I'm not bible scholar but there are experts that fully understand it and they would love to speak with you.

When it comes to our laws and some basic human rights being involved and these things being based on the bible, I don't want to hear people read what they want.

 

[Chaos Jackal]

All religions make claims as to how the world works. It's part of their purpose. And it's not the literal word of God. It's the word of men. Regardless of that, the Bible (more specifically, the New Testament, since that's the teachings of Christ that make the religion) has some general truths as well as some things from a time long gone. A religion's purpose is to provide morality and meaning to the lives of people, and as such can and should change with the times, or else it will be left behind and laughed at, as it has happened for quite a while. Few religious people truly believe that we are a pile of mud with the breath of God in us, or that all blacks should be slaves because Noah cursed his black son and his descendants to serve the descendants of the other two. But they need something to believe in. The idea of another, better life is always something people dream of. As long as religion can provide this and uphold morality, no change is bad. The world changes, people change. If religion is man-made, it should change and evolve as well, as all man-made things do. And if a God truly exists, well, I certainly think that if he is half as benevolent as they say he will accept a few changes in His word if it means we truly get closer and understand each other.

And yeah, religious people see it as an attack on marriage, because the mystery is indeed made for a man and a woman; that much is true. There doesn't have be to be a religious marriage however (and according to you, a religious homosexual person is really hard to find and is a horrible contradiction). And most who are against homosexuals getting married are against homosexuality in general.The marriage is kinda like the icing in the cake and perhaps provides an excuse, but the real problem for most of those against is the relationship in itself.

 

[Majestic Absol]

A same-sex attracted person was already equal before the law prior this ruling: such a person had the same freedom to find an opposite sex spouse as anyone else. You can be treated equally by the law but in being treated equally, find you have options that you have little to no desire to actually exercise...

Yes, you’re right, homosexual people were equal in the fact that they could find an opposite sex spouse just like everybody else. They were no more unequal than their straight counter-parts. It is men and women who were unequal before this ruling. Before this ruling one had to be a man in order to marry a woman, and one had to be a woman in order to marry a man, and that is unequal. That is sexism. That is sexism because in order to marry a woman, you had to be a man (and vice versa). Just as it would be sexist to tell a woman she can’t vote just because she is a woman instead of a man, it is also sexist to tell a woman she can’t marry a woman because she is a woman, and not a man. That is why it is unequal.

 

[crystal_pidgeot]

All religions make claims as to how the world works. It's part of their purpose.

Yes, this is true, they do make claims but do you think that if they are able to change the bible and other religious text to keep up with modern understanding and science, is this not lying? According to the bible, the world is flat held up by something. Since we go thats not the case we can dismiss the book altogether since it fails and basic science. Now if they go back and change it to the world is spherical and obits the sun do to gravity (the bible does not say this) this can be see as correct to people 2000 years later right? The bible fails at explain the natural world, which is understanding since the people who wrote it did not have scientific understanding.

And it's not the literal word of God. It's the word of men. Regardless of that, the Bible (more specifically, the New Testament, since that's the teachings of Christ that make the religion) has some general truths as well as some things from a time long gone.

That's how the bible is explained to me by those who believe it. Divinely inspired and written through man. Since we know God is all powerful, there is no way error can occur. As for truths, sure, the bible has truths. Harry Potter also has truths.

A religion's purpose is to provide morality and meaning to the lives of people, and as such can and should change with the times, or else it will be left behind and laughed at, as it has happened for quite a while.

If I would list the morality of the bible here, I would more than likely be interacted for I won't do so but we did live the morality of the bible, we would be dead or in jail. As for meaning in life, well what meanings were ever explain. I read "do as I say". I have a moral system and thats to be fair to others and respect them...treat them how I want to be treated. Its very simple to me and I don't need a God or a book to tell me whats right or wrong. My life also has meaning, because I give it so. Life in general has no purpose but if you give it one, its worth living.

Few religious people truly believe that we are a pile of mud with the breath of God in us,

Well, where do you think life comes from because depending on what you say, you are arguing against the origin of Man. Did Adam and Eve exist or not.

or that all blacks should be slaves because Noah cursed his black son and his descendants to serve the descendants of the other two.

So this had nothing to do with the way blacks were treated in America and forced into slavery? Nothing at all right?

But they need something to believe in. The idea of another, better life is always something people dream of. As long as religion can provide this and uphold morality, no change is bad.

Believe in what? I would much rather place my faith in something tangible, like science which has proven time and time again to work, like everyone else should since that and math are the only things considered as "true". People can have beliefs for whatever they what but I find believing as many true things as possible is the best way to grow. Yes, people want better lives but most religious people live for the afterlife, which is something not proven to exist so why not live this life (the only one we know for sure we get) to the fullest? Like I said before, the morality of the bible is not great and to uphold that would turn America into North Korea and other nations like it.

The world changes, people change. If religion is man-made, it should change and evolve as well, as all man-made things do.

Times do change and as our understanding of the natural world grow, we change with it. I have no problem with that since progress is good for the human race, however if the bible can make claims about the world, like it does and claim to the the truth or the word of God, it changing to fit the natural world would be lying to the people of the religion. Take a look at Pokemon ORAS, it is now considered the definitive version of Pokemon Ruby/Sapphire/Emerald, changing the story because of Mega Evolution. Pokemon is changing with the times, which is expected for a company that wants to make money. The difference with Pokemon and the bible is Pokemon makes no claims at all about the natural world, like the bible does so the bible changing to keep up with times is something that just cant happen.

And if a God truly exists, well, I certainly think that if he is half as benevolent as they say he will accept a few changes in His word if it means we truly get closer and understand each other.

If God does exist we have problems. The bible says God is eternal and unchanging. God would never go back on his word. If God hates gays, he will always hate gays. To say this means one does not understand the nature of God. Keep in mind I was not the one to define this.

And yeah, religious people see it as an attack on marriage, because the mystery is indeed made for a man and a woman; that much is true.

What proof do you have of this? How is it an attack on their marriage? Keep in mind humans are the only species on Earth that marry. Also, do you think this statement is the reason for the homosexual hate and not having the same rights as others?

There doesn't have be to be a religious marriage however (and according to you, a religious homosexual person is really hard to find and is a horrible contradiction).

Yeah, you're right about this but the problem is the religious claim almost exclusivity of marriage as "a union with God". Marriage is a contract with you, your mate and God. There is no such thing as a non religious marriage because to them, there is only one marriage and if its anything but, its not a true contract with God. As for your second part, I'll explain it again. If, for example I was removed from a store and was told blacks aren't allowed to shop here, I would never shop at their store again, would not support any other company owned or subsidized by them and I would spread the word about them. I expect the LGBT community to do the same as well, since religion was used to justify hate towards them. What I find are people completely willing to dismiss this and continue to support what was used to discriminate against them. To me, this is a logical inconsistency.

And most who are against homosexuals getting married are against homosexuality in general.The marriage is kinda like the icing in the cake and perhaps provides an excuse, but the real problem for most of those against is the relationship in itself.

Now, what group of people by large are against homosexuals?

 

[Chaos Jackal]

Yes, this is true, they do make claims but do you think that if they are able to change the bible and other religious text to keep up with modern understanding and science, is this not lying? According to the bible, the world is flat held up by something. Since we go thats not the case we can dismiss the book altogether since it fails and basic science. Now if they go back and change it to the world is spherical and obits the sun do to gravity (the bible does not say this) this can be see as correct to people 2000 years later right? The bible fails at explain the natural world, which is understanding since the people who wrote it did not have scientific understanding.



That's how the bible is explained to me by those who believe it. Divinely inspired and written through man. Since we know God is all powerful, there is no way error can occur. As for truths, sure, the bible has truths. Harry Potter also has truths.



If I would list the morality of the bible here, I would more than likely be interacted for I won't do so but we did live the morality of the bible, we would be dead or in jail. As for meaning in life, well what meanings were ever explain. I read "do as I say". I have a moral system and thats to be fair to others and respect them...treat them how I want to be treated. Its very simple to me and I don't need a God or a book to tell me whats right or wrong. My life also has meaning, because I give it so. Life in general has no purpose but if you give it one, its worth living.

Once again, you're tunneling and not reading. Pay attention please. I never said to follow the Bible. What I said is that the Bible has its good points and its bad points. I never said you should follow it blindly, or use it as a scientific document. I really don't know what you're arguing against. I actually said that a lot of the things there are old ideas and not fitting in the modern age. The book is just a collection of stories that some people give it divine origins. That doesn't mean we should copy everything in it, and I never said that.

Well, where do you think life comes from because depending on what you say, you are arguing against the origin of Man. Did Adam and Eve exist or not.

Umm... no? No they didn't? I don't even understand where that question came from.

So this had nothing to do with the way blacks were treated in America and forced into slavery? Nothing at all right?

Read above. I said that few people believe it now. I listed it as an example of things old and out of age.

Believe in what? I would much rather place my faith in something tangible, like science which has proven time and time again to work, like everyone else should since that and math are the only things considered as "true". People can have beliefs for whatever they what but I find believing as many true things as possible is the best way to grow. Yes, people want better lives but most religious people live for the afterlife, which is something not proven to exist so why not live this life (the only one we know for sure we get) to the fullest? Like I said before, the morality of the bible is not great and to uphold that would turn America into North Korea and other nations like it.

You and me both, but that's why religion exists. Some people need to believe in something greater. Answer me, if that's not true, then why the hell did we make so many religions?

Times do change and as our understanding of the natural world grow, we change with it. I have no problem with that since progress is good for the human race, however if the bible can make claims about the world, like it does and claim to the the truth or the word of God, it changing to fit the natural world would be lying to the people of the religion. Take a look at Pokemon ORAS, it is now considered the definitive version of Pokemon Ruby/Sapphire/Emerald, changing the story because of Mega Evolution. Pokemon is changing with the times, which is expected for a company that wants to make money. The difference with Pokemon and the bible is Pokemon makes no claims at all about the natural world, like the bible does so the bible changing to keep up with times is something that just cant happen.

Again, I never said take the Bible at face value.

If God does exist we have problems. The bible says God is eternal and unchanging. God would never go back on his word. If God hates gays, he will always hate gays. To say this means one does not understand the nature of God. Keep in mind I was not the one to define this.

God loves all, if we believe the Christians. God is eternal and unchanging, but humans aren't, and He knows it, if he's really omniscient. And forgiveness is pretty big in the New Testament. I'd take my chances.

What proof do you have of this? How is it an attack on their marriage? Keep in mind humans are the only species on Earth that marry. Also, do you think this statement is the reason for the homosexual hate and not having the same rights as others?

For those who use the teachings of the Testament as a reason to be against gay marriage, it is. Read about marriage, I think Paul mentions most of the stuff. With the idea that God made man and the woman from him, marriage is the way to bring these two halves back together according to religion. To put it too simply, God made Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve.

Yeah, you're right about this but the problem is the religious claim almost exclusivity of marriage as "a union with God". Marriage is a contract with you, your mate and God. There is no such thing as a non religious marriage because to them, there is only one marriage and if its anything but, its not a true contract with God. As for your second part, I'll explain it again. If, for example I was removed from a store and was told blacks aren't allowed to shop here, I would never shop at their store again, would not support any other company owned or subsidized by them and I would spread the word about them. I expect the LGBT community to do the same as well, since religion was used to justify hate towards them. What I find are people completely willing to dismiss this and continue to support what was used to discriminate against them. To me, this is a logical inconsistency.

To you, it's a logical inconsistency because you're generalizing. It's not religion, it's the people. There are Christians who are willing to accept the LGBT community; it's not "company policy" to be against them. As for marriage, well, those who are too fond of their marriage won't recognize your marriage as true before God. So what? It's still legal for the state and you don't believe in religion anyway.

Now, what group of people by large are against homosexuals?

As I said, I dunno how big Americans are on religion. What I do know is that there quite a lot of people that don't really care about religion but dislike homosexuals, because they are different.

 

[crystal_pidgeot]

Once again, you're tunneling and not reading. Pay attention please. I never said to follow the Bible. What I said is that the Bible has its good points and its bad points. I never said you should follow it blindly, or use it as a scientific document. I really don't know what you're arguing against. I actually said that a lot of the things there are old ideas and not fitting in the modern age. The book is just a collection of stories that some people give it divine origins. That doesn't mean we should copy everything in it, and I never said that.

I know you said that but I'm saying a lot of people in America do. Based on your comments, I dont even know if you live in the states or even know religious Americans are. 88% of America is religious or believe in a higher power. A lot of these people don't know what the bible says and do follow it blindly. Just so you, and other people who thank your post know, only about 19% of Christians read the bible (about 3 times a year or so) and about 6% read it everyday. This is very low. If I claim to be something, I will at least know what its about. These numbers are based on polls so not the best source but it shows most people of religion don't read their holy books and just blindly follow it, almost exclusivity word of mouth, which is how hate can be spread.

Umm... no? No they didn't? I don't even understand where that question came from.

You said "Few religious people truly believe that we are a pile of mud with the breath of God in us". You'll be surprised how many take the story of Adam and Eve as canon. While this number is getting smaller due to Evolution, the number is not as small as you claim it is.

Read above. I said that few people believe it now. I listed it as an example of things old and out of age.

Yeah, not many hold this mindset now but the bible still supports it and the bible is very common in American culture.

You and me both, but that's why religion exists. Some people need to believe in something greater. Answer me, if that's not true, then why the hell did we make so many religions?

Religion has historically been used as a means control people. How do you get a large amount of people to do what you want. Keep in mind that people back then were not as educated as we are today. most did not know how to read and were told via word of mouth. They made the rules and created a God and said, do this or God will do X to you. Look at the Norse gods. Their afterlife has to do with feasting and fighting. I wonder why that is... maybe it has to do that viking did these two things all the time. Now Thor is a cool god, just look at the Avengers and there is nothing wrong with believing in something bigger but why aren't any new religions being made?

Again, I never said take the Bible at face value.

Well I don't take the bible seriously but I find it important as a Atheist to know the bible for sake of argument. Just another poll but 3 in 4 americans believe the bible is the word of God.

God loves all, if we believe the Christians. God is eternal and unchanging, but humans aren't, and He knows it, if he's really omniscient. And forgiveness is pretty big in the New Testament. I'd take my chances.

Yet if you read the bible, you'll see this is quite the opposite.

For those who use the teachings of the Testament as a reason to be against gay marriage, it is. Read about marriage, I think Paul mentions most of the stuff. With the idea that God made man and the woman from him, marriage is the way to bring these two halves back together according to religion. To put it too simply, God made Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve.

God made Steve too...

To you, it's logical inconsistency because you're generalizing. It's not religion, it's the people. There are Christians who are willing to accept the LGBT community; it's not "company policy" to be against them. As for marriage, well, those who are too fond of their marriage won't recognize your marriage as true before God. So what? It's still legal for the state and you don't believe religion anyway.

Yeah, people suck but secular people in general don't hate gays. We dislike people for reasons that directly affect us or a group on a large scale. Secular people have no reason to dislike someone because their sexuality is different from ours. Marriage is the ultimate goal for a relationship but in case you did not know, there is only one marriage. There is no religious or non-religious marriage. Its the same to the Law BUT most in charge are very religious and use their religion to prevent homosexual couples from getting married.

Now my question to you, which is the most relevant to this thread's topic is Why in the world was same sex marriage illegal in the first place?

As I said, I dunno how big Americans are on religion. What I do know is that there quite a lot of people that don't really care about religion but dislike homosexuals, because they are different.

Are you American? If not, I don't think you qualify to speak on such a subject. I hope this doesn't offend you but in America, like I said above is about 88% religious with about 80% being exclusively religions based around Jesus so in a word, very religious.

 

[Chaos Jackal]

I know you said that but I'm saying a lot of people in America do. Based on your comments, I dont even know if you live in the states or even know religious Americans are. 88% of America is religious or believe in a higher power. A lot of these people don't know what the bible says and do follow it blindly. Just so you, and other people who thank your post know, only about 19% of Christians read the bible (about 3 times a year or so) and about 6% read it everyday. This is very low. If I claim to be something, I will at least know what its about. These numbers are based on polls so not the best source but it shows most people of religion don't read their holy books and just blindly follow it, almost exclusivity word of mouth, which is how hate can be spread.

I've stated at least twice that I don't know how religious Americans are. If that wasn't clear enough, then let me properly say it. I am not American.

For one, you cannot blindly follow something you don't know, because, well, you don't know it. From what you say, it's like a misinterpreted version of the Bible has been passed down the last generation of Americans, in which case again you can't blame religion, since people don't even know it, but the people themselves, who simply want to hate on something and create all manners of smokescreens and distractions to do so, thus enforcing what I've said before about religion being simply an excuse

You said "Few religious people truly believe that we are a pile of mud with the breath of God in us". You'll be surprised how many take the story of Adam and Eve as canon. While this number is getting smaller due to Evolution, the number is not as small as you claim it is.

If they are as many as you imply, then yes, I am extremely surprised. You're pretty much telling that one of the greatest nations in the world runs on superstitious people who can't accept evolution and blindly follow a decorated story of a talented religious Jew who lived two millenia ago. I expected more to be ready to have sex in a car at the side of the highway rather than condemn it. And there I thought the world was just bad.

Yeah, not many hold this mindset now but the bible still supports it and the bible is very common in American culture.

You stated before that not even a fifth of religious people read the Bible. I wouldn't call that common. And once again, you fail to understand what I said. It's an example of an old, outdated point in the Bible; a point that belongs in a different time.

Religion has historically been used as a means control people. How do you get a large amount of people to do what you want. Keep in mind that people back then were not as educated as we are today. most did not know how to read and were told via word of mouth. They made the rules and created a God and said, do this or God will do X to you. Look at the Norse gods. Their afterlife has to do with feasting and fighting. I wonder why that is... maybe it has to do that viking did these two things all the time. Now Thor is a cool god, just look at the Avengers and there is nothing wrong with believing in something bigger but why aren't any new religions being made?

Of course it was used as a means to control people. That doesn't disprove what I said, it confirms it. It can be used to control people because people are willing to believe in some greater power and a reward in an afterlife that's better than their current one. Sure, they were uneducated, but still willing. Like you said, the reward is something that appeals, and that's why people wanna follow it. You live a life of hardship and difficulties, with a few happy moments. Especially in an age where there's no science, it's very easy to believe that one day all this will end, and you will eternally relax in a sunny green field, or in palace with seventy-two virgins, or in the halls of Valhalla eating and drinking. It seems right and fair. Those who wanted to control people exploited their desires for a better tomorrow. Religion is a product of humanity's hope for something better.
And new religions are being made all the time. Heresies, self-proclaimed saviors and demonic cults are common. They can't overshadow the old religions that are so widespread, but they do get their followers, at least for some time.

Well I don't take the bible seriously but I find it important as a Atheist to know the bible for sake of argument. Just another poll but 3 in 4 americans believe the bible is the word of God.

You don't though, and I never said it was. Again, I can't see the point of this answer.

Yet if you read the bible, you'll see this is quite the opposite.

Pardon? Judaism is based on the Old Testament, but Christianity is based on the New. I haven't read either in quite some time, but I seem to recall Christ saying that not seven times, but seventy times seven times you should forgive. Besides, we're all sinners based on Christianity, yet God is willing to give us a chance. I'm pretty sure He won't mind a bit of modernization in service of redemption.

God made Steve too...

If you failed to understand the phrase, it means "God made a man and a woman as two parts of a whole, not a man and a man or a woman and a woman." Marriage is the mating of these two halves, and obviously homosexuals don't fulfill the requirements. You say you know the Bible and the religious texts; then I'll once again direct you to the words of Paul.

Yeah, people suck but secular people in general don't hate gays. We dislike people for reasons that directly affect us or a group on a large scale. Secular people have no reason to dislike someone because their sexuality is different from ours. Marriage is the ultimate goal for a relationship but in case you did not know, there is only one marriage. There is no religious or non-religious marriage. Its the same to the Law BUT most in charge are very religious and use their religion to prevent homosexual couples from getting married.

Well, since apparently you live in an extremely religious environment, let me explain the reactions of an environment mostly non-religious. They don't like homosexuals. These people have barely read the Testament once in their lives, go to church on Easter and Christmas if they're not too bored and their general opinion on religion is "old fairy tales". But they don't like homosexuals. They don't like blacks. They don't like Asians. And that's because they're different, and they can't or don't want to understand them.
Let me explain this via an example. A person with a deformed face or an obvious mental condition walks into a train and takes a seat. I don't know how Americans would react, but I've sure as hell seen this situation multiple times and the reaction is always the same. People stare for a moment in horrified surprise, then turn around so they can't see and stay away from them. They don't want to have anything to do with them.
Was Hitler religious? I think not. But we're talking of the most extreme discrimination on different skin tones and Jews that has ever tainted human history. He viewed them as different and lesser, and through propaganda many followed suit, because there was already ground for the thought "They're different, so I'm better.".
We're talking of a society where calling someone gay is an insult. Things have begun to tone down somewhat with my generation, but most people older than 35 will scoff at a homosexual, especially a man. He won't get any sort of understanding, only libels. And the people who shoot those libels use Christ's name the most in "F*** your Christ and your family.". Religion is an excuse.
And at least here, there are two marriages. You can simply go to the town hall and sign, and you're officially a couple. The church doesn't approve, but it's not like anyone gives a damn.

Now my question to you, which is the most relevant to this thread's topic is Why in the world was same sex marriage illegal in the first place?

Religion, for one, is a part of culture, so when marriage at many ages was directed by religion (which was much more powerful in a world not as scientifically advanced) and with the government and the church being much closer than they are today (because priests were actually politicians) it's natural that there would exist no marriage for homosexuals. And before you rush to say that it's religion's fault then, let me finish. That's in the past. The fact that the USA have made it legal means that you're trying to leave behind a past that's overstayed its welcome. There are however many countries in the world much less religious than the America you describe to me who have yet to make same sex marriage legal. And you can't blame religion there. People just won't accept it.

Are you American? If not, I don't think you qualify to speak on such a subject. I hope this doesn't offend you but in America, like I said above is about 88% religious with about 80% being exclusively religions based around Jesus so in a word, very religious.

I'm not American, but Americans are still humans. Religion may play a much greater role in your lives than I can imagine, but I find it very hard to believe that it's the main reason. Homosexuals are discriminated against in the majority of the world. I don't think the reasons of most Americans behind disliking homosexuals are that much different than the reasons of Europeans or Australians. We will always try to suppress the different. It's in our nature.

 

[crystal_pidgeot]

I've stated at least twice that I don't know how religious Americans are. If that wasn't clear enough, then let me properly say it. I am not American.

For one, you cannot blindly follow something you don't know, because, well, you don't know it. From what you say, it's like a misinterpreted version of the Bible has been passed down the last generation of Americans, in which case again you can't blame religion, since people don't even know it, but the people themselves, who simply want to hate on something and create all manners of smokescreens and distractions to do so, thus enforcing what I've said before about religion being simply an excuse

Well, this is what most religious people. If most dont understand the tenets of their faith and read from the book they hold dear, you can see how a problem such as homophobia can be passed down.

If they are as many as you imply, then yes, I am extremely surprised. You're pretty much telling that one of the greatest nations in the world runs on superstitious people who can't accept evolution and blindly follow a decorated story of a talented religious Jew who lived two millenia ago. I expected more to be ready to have sex in a car at the side of the highway rather than condemn it. And there I thought the world was just bad.

Many others say the same thing as well. My challenge to you would be to do a quick google search about american politics and religion. You can also watch videos as well. You'll see how ingrained it really is.

You stated before that not even a fifth of religious people read the Bible. I wouldn't call that common. And once again, you fail to understand what I said. It's an example of an old, outdated point in the Bible; a point that belongs in a different time.

I understood you. Like I said in my post, saying the book is the word of God hold much weight. That never gets outdated, unlike the second amendment. God knows all events that will ever happen. Sure to us it is but to ever 3 in 4 Christians for example, it isn't.

Of course it was used as a means to control people. That doesn't disprove what I said, it confirms it. It can be used to control people because people are willing to believe in some greater power and a reward in an afterlife that's better than their current one. Sure, they were uneducated, but still willing. Like you said, the reward is something that appeals, and that's why people wanna follow it. You live a life of hardship and difficulties, with a few happy moments. Especially in an age where there's no science, it's very easy to believe that one day all this will end, and you will eternally relax in a sunny green field, or in palace with seventy-two virgins, or in the halls of Valhalla eating and drinking. It seems right and fair. Those who wanted to control people exploited their desires for a better tomorrow.

There is a say "A fool and his money are easily separated". Its easy to take advantage of uneducated people. This is the reason religion is taught at such an early age. They start young and grow then they wont question their beliefs. You're not wrong here but their faith is placed in the wrong things. Wanting something doesn't make it so.

Religion is a product of humanity's hope for something better.

Humanity should put its hope in science, since its the reason we are where we are now.

And new religions are being made all the time. Heresies, self-proclaimed saviors and demonic cults are common. They can't overshadow the old religions that are so widespread, but they do get their followers, at least for some time.

Well I rather call those cults. All religions start that way.

You don't though, and I never said it was. Again, I can't see the point of this answer.

I was just saying 3 in 4 Christians do take the bible seriously. That was the point of the answer.

Pardon? Judaism is based on the Old Testament, but Christianity is based on the New. I haven't read either in quite some time, but I seem to recall Christ saying that not seven times, but seventy times seven times you should forgive. Besides, we're all sinners based on Christianity, yet God is willing to give us a chance. I'm pretty sure He won't mind a bit of modernization in service of redemption.

Its all the same thing. Christians also quote the old testament and are taught it. According to the bible, we are to listen to God's word, not man's word. God wouldn't want any revisions, since his word is perfect.

If you failed to understand the phrase, it means "God made a man and a woman as two parts of a whole, not a man and a man or a woman and a woman." Marriage is the mating of these two halves, and obviously homosexuals don't fulfill the requirements. You say you know the Bible and the religious texts; then I'll once again direct you to the words of Paul.

I know what it means. I was just making a joke.

Well, since apparently you live in an extremely religious environment, let me explain the reactions of an environment mostly non-religious. They don't like homosexuals. These people have barely read the Testament once in their lives, go to church on Easter and Christmas if they're not too bored and their general opinion on religion is "old fairy tales". But they don't like homosexuals. They don't like blacks. They don't like Asians. And that's because they're different, and they can't or don't want to understand them.

I have a hard time believing that. A top 10 list shows countries that are pretty religious that hate gays. I just don't see this is secular countries. Not saying it cant happen but what are they basing their hate on?

Let me explain this via an example. A person with a deformed face or an obvious mental condition walks into a train and takes a seat. I don't know how Americans would react, but I've sure as hell seen this situation multiple times and the reaction is always the same. People stare for a moment in horrified surprise, then turn around so they can't see and stay away from them. They don't want to have anything to do with them.

Yeah, people are scared of things they don't understand and the most extreme lash out. Not saying I won't look but I would at least offer to talk to the guy.

Was Hitler religious? I think not. But we're talking of the most extreme discrimination on different skin tones and Jews that has ever tainted human history. He viewed them as different and lesser, and through propaganda many followed suit, because there was already ground for the thought "They're different, so I'm better.".

Adolf Hitler was a Roman Catholic. I'll leave it at that.

We're talking of a society where calling someone gay is an insult. Things have begun to tone down somewhat with my generation, but most people older than 35 will scoff at a homosexual, especially a man. He won't get any sort of understanding, only libels. And the people who shoot those libels use Christ's name the most in "F*** your Christ and your family.". Religion is an excuse.
And at least here, there are two marriages. You can simply go to the town hall and sign, and you're officially a couple. The church doesn't approve, but it's not like anyone gives a damn.

The same is happening with my generation. The reason for this is the world is (at least America and other first world nations) are becoming more secular. Once the last generation (our parents generation) dies off, the would will get much better but it will take a few to change it for the better.

Religion, for one, is a part of culture, so when marriage at many ages was directed by religion (which was much more powerful in a world not as scientifically advanced) and with the government and the church being much closer than they are today (because priests were actually politicians) it's natural that there would exist no marriage for homosexuals. And before you rush to say that it's religion's fault then, let me finish. That's in the past. The fact that the USA have made it legal means that you're trying to leave behind a past that's overstayed its welcome. There are however many countries in the world much less religious than the America you describe to me who have yet to make same sex marriage legal. And you can't blame religion there. People just won't accept it.

There are countries more religious than America. Iran is pretty much all religious and the penalty for just being gay is death. Uganda for example, American christian emissaries went to spread the word of God and because of that, being gay can get you 14 years in jail or even put to death. This did not exist before Americans went there. This is very recent, no later than like 2012 or so.

I'm not American, but Americans are still humans. Religion may play a much greater role in your lives than I can imagine, but I find it very hard to believe that it's the main reason. Homosexuals are discriminated against in the majority of the world. I don't think the reasons of most Americans behind disliking homosexuals are that much different than the reasons of Europeans or Australians. We will always try to suppress the different. It's in our nature.

Like I said, those who don't grow up with religion are less likely to hate for things a person can't control since they never had that influence. You have to remember that Europeans are religious and Australia government is completely christian. I mean, people suck in general but there is always a underlining reason for it.

 

[Rusty Sticks]

Remember when this thread didn't involve that much reading? I miss those days.

 

[professorlight]

Well, this forum was long overdue for an interesting discussion, I say.

Although, I would certainly appreciate it if it was just a tiny bit more concise. Goodness.

 

[Shining Raikou]

We're veering slightly off topic again, remember to keep marriage in mind and how that relates to what you are discussing. Also, in order to make sure we are not just talking in circles, please cite sources in order to make your arguments more convincing. Just make sure the websites/videos/etc. are appropriate for the forums. Personal experience is fine and all but if you're going to talk facts at least show us what you are referencing. There is a lot that could be said by providing a few links.

Lastly, if this thread continues to have problems, it may be locked. You all can discuss/debate in a kind, informative, and intelligent way, so do it.

 

[Chaos Jackal]

My apologies. This is the last long one, I promise.

Well, this is what most religious people. If most dont understand the tenets of their faith and read from the book they hold dear, you can see how a problem such as homophobia can be passed down.

Many others say the same thing as well. My challenge to you would be to do a quick google search about american politics and religion. You can also watch videos as well. You'll see how ingrained it really is.

I understood you. Like I said in my post, saying the book is the word of God hold much weight. That never gets outdated, unlike the second amendment. God knows all events that will ever happen. Sure to us it is but to ever 3 in 4 Christians for example, it isn't.

There is a say "A fool and his money are easily separated". Its easy to take advantage of uneducated people. This is the reason religion is taught at such an early age. They start young and grow then they wont question their beliefs. You're not wrong here but their faith is placed in the wrong things. Wanting something doesn't make it so.

Humanity should put its hope in science, since its the reason we are where we are now.

You make four statemenents explaining to me how deeply religion is ingrained, but then you reply with the last one? If religion is so deeply ingrained, then why the hell did it become so deeply ingrained? You're saying it's not that people need something greater to believe in. But you also say it's not that people use it as an excuse for their hatred towards certain groups. Then I ask again, why is it so deeply ingrained? Unless the meaning of the last statement was "Yes, you're right in saying that people follow religion in their hopes of a better tomorrow, but they shouldn't.", well, yeah, but they do. Life is often so bad for some that having a even a vague hope of a better afterlife may just be good for them (I can't say I completely agree; I see hope as a boon as much as a burden, but the argument still exists). Religion exists because of these people, and while this has been exploited over the years it doesn't make religion in itself something bad. It's the people who exploit it once again.
I'm not saying that this way of thinking that created religion in the first place is right. I'm just saying it existed and exists still.

Well I rather call those cults. All religions start that way.

Well, it's not that easy to gain ground when the big old religions are so widespread. It's kinda like if you started campaigning for president.

I was just saying 3 in 4 Christians do take the bible seriously. That was the point of the answer.

Well... OK. I still don't quite understand what this has to do with my initial point, so I'll leave it at that.

Its all the same thing. Christians also quote the old testament and are taught it. According to the bible, we are to listen to God's word, not man's word. God wouldn't want any revisions, since his word is perfect.

It's not exactly the same thing. The Old Testament is God's law given to the nation of Israel in preparation for the Messiah's coming. The teachings of it are thus obsolete in Christianity, as seen in the following passages of the New Testament (http://biblia.com/bible/esv/Gal 3.23–25, http://biblia.com/bible/esv/Rom 10.4, http://biblia.com/bible/esv/Eph 2.15) and only the word of Christ is the law Christians should follow. The God of the Old Testament is a God of wrath and punishment, but the God of the New Testament is a God of mercy and forgiveness. Apparently even God isn't that unchanging. I'm sure He'd understand.

I know what it means. I was just making a joke.

My apologies then.

I really hope that about Hitler was a joke more than anything else. Hitler was brought up as a Roman Catholic, but what he did had little to do with him being a Roman Catholic. Argue all you want about it, but I'll never accept that his being a Roman Catholic was the main reason for his crimes against humanity. And similarly, neither was religion the main reason German people were so ready and easy to concede to such ideas. It was despair combined with the belief that they deserved better than what they were given after WWI and they sure as hell deserved better than those stingy, stinky Jews or those weird people with the impossible language and the skin not being white, as the skin of humans should be. People fear the different. Really, you're going a bit too far when you blame Hitler on the church.

A summary of all things I've said up until now (to also answer the rest of the lastest part of your post).

I never said that religion isn't to blame for the discrimination against homosexuals. I accepted this right from the start. What I've been trying to tell you through all these posts is that it's not only the fault of religion. As I've said many times, for many religion is just an excuse, and there are those who don't believe in religion altogether. Yet discrimination can be found everywhere. Religion may enforce this hatred at cases, but it often doesn't need to. By blaming everything on religion, you're dicriminating against those who properly worship their God of love and don't use their religion as an excuse for hatred, as well as all those who are willing to make the next step and accept something that seems to be against their religion for the sake of being properly respectful to others. Religion is a set of ideas and beliefs. In a way t's, excuse me believers, a tool. And a tool on its own isn't good or bad. Good or bad are the reasons it's used for and the people behind the reasons.

You did accept that people are scared of what they don't understand. Then tell me, how much do you think a guy who's dreaming of the chick next door will understand the guy who's dreaming of the dude across the street? Does it have to do with religion that much? Or does it happen anyway?

I'm afraid I haven't convinced you, but that's about all I can say. We can agree to disagree if you want. Just... if you are so much a defender of rights as you've claimed to be, take a look at yourself right now and try to realize that you're tunneling instead of seeing the whole picture.

 

[crystal_pidgeot]

We're veering slightly off topic again. In order to make sure we are not just talking in circles, please cite sources in order to make your arguments more convincing. Just make sure the websites/videos/etc. are appropriate for the forums. Personal experience is fine and all but if you're going to talk facts at least show us what you are referencing. There is a lot that could be said by providing a few links.

Well I gave statistics and other researching points any could just Google but I guess I could link as well. I though I was doing a good job of that but...

http://listverse.com/2013/12/30/10-countries-that-completely-hate-gay-people/
http://www.gallup.com/poll/170834/three-four-bible-word-god.aspx
http://priceonomics.com/america-is-becoming-less-religious-secular/
http://www.evilbible.com/hitler_was_christian.htm
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...ntigay-conservative-evangelicals-9193593.html
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_and_politics_in_the_United_States
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/nigel-barber/why-religion-rules-americ_b_1690433.html


Source for my reasoning...
http://www.tfpstudentaction.org/pol...-marriage-is-harmful-and-must-be-opposed.html

The bible:
Leviticus 18:22
Leviticus 20:13


A lot of this stuff if off the top of my head and I can find more sources if needed but I'll link to them when making an argument.

 

[crystal_pidgeot]

You make four statemenents explaining to me how deeply religion is ingrained, but then you reply with the last one? If religion is so deeply ingrained, then why the hell did it become so deeply ingrained? You're saying it's not that people need something greater to believe in. But you also say it's not that people use it as an excuse for their hatred towards certain groups. Then I ask again, why is it so deeply ingrained? Unless the meaning of the last statement was "Yes, you're right in saying that people follow religion in their hopes of a better tomorrow, but they shouldn't.", well, yeah, but they do. Life is often so bad for some that having a even a vague hope of a better afterlife may just be good for them (I can't say I completely agree; I see hope as a boon as much as a burden, but the argument still exists). Religion exists because of these people, and while this has been exploited over the years it doesn't make religion in itself something bad. It's the people who exploit it once again.

America was religious from the start, even though it was founded on secular means. People in families continue the religion. People were less educated back then than they are now and the ability to read was a luxury. There is a saying I like id it goes something like "Good people do good thing, bad people do bad things, religion makes people do bad things". A perfect example of this is 9/11.

I'm not saying that this way of thinking that created religion in the first place is right. I'm just saying it existed and exists still.

Science has been the one consistent thing to improve lives. We live longer because of it.

http://longevity.about.com/od/longevitystatsandnumbers/a/Longevity-Throughout-History.htm

Other animals such as the Great Horned Owl live at most 20 years in the wild but can live up to 60 in captivity. This is why humans need to focus on ways of improving our human condition, expanding and exploring space. We need to create new technologies that can help us live longer and help the world. Science has done so much for us while religion hasn't. All it did was hold back progress. Look up anything about Ken Ham. Better yet, watch some videos about the creation museum. They are teaching this to kids.

Well... OK. I still don't quite understand what this has to do with my initial point, so I'll leave it at that.

You said no one takes the bible to be literal, I was saying that 75% of americans do.

It's not exactly the same thing. The Old Testament is God's law given to the nation of Israel in preparation for the Messiah's coming. The teachings of it are thus obsolete in Christianity, as seen in the following passages of the New Testament (http://biblia.com/bible/esv/Gal 3.23–25, http://biblia.com/bible/esv/Rom 10.4, http://biblia.com/bible/esv/Eph 2.15) and only the word of Christ is the law Christians should follow. The God of the Old Testament is a God of wrath and punishment, but the God of the New Testament is a God of mercy and forgiveness. Apparently even God isn't that unchanging. I'm sure He'd understand.

Convenient right? Now depending on which version you read, some Christians believe God and Jesus are the same person, other believe they are different beings.

My apologies then.

I really hope that about Hitler was a joke more than anything else. Hitler was brought up as a Roman Catholic, but what he did had little to do with him being a Roman Catholic. Argue all you want about it, but I'll never accept that his being a Roman Catholic was the main reason for his crimes against humanity. And similarly, neither was religion the main reason German people were so ready and easy to concede to such ideas. It was despair combined with the belief that they deserved better than what they were given after WWI and they sure as hell deserved better than those stingy, stinky Jews or those weird people with the impossible language and the skin not being white, as the skin of humans should be. People fear the different. Really, you're going a bit too far when you blame Hitler on the church.

You can research it yourself. I provided a link but there are other sources you can see for yourself. Like Bush, he believed he was on a mission from God.

I never said that religion isn't to blame for the discrimination against homosexuals. I accepted this right from the start. What I've been trying to tell you through all these posts is that it's not only the fault of religion. As I've said many times, for many religion is just an excuse, and there are those who don't believe in religion altogether. Yet discrimination can be found everywhere. Religion may enforce this hatred at cases, but it often doesn't need to. By blaming everything on religion, you're dicriminating against those who properly worship their God of love and don't use their religion as an excuse for hatred, as well as all those who are willing to make the next step and accept something that seems to be against their religion for the sake of being properly respectful to others. Religion is a set of ideas and beliefs. In a way t's, excuse me believers, a tool. And a tool on its own isn't good or bad. Good or bad are the reasons it's used for and the people behind the reasons.

I don't like the word discriminating here. When a person subscribes to an idea (knowing or not knowing about it) they take on the beliefs of that system. Since the bible say these things to this day (whether or not they read it) they are pretty much saying I support this.

You did accept that people are scared of what they don't understand. Then tell me, how much do you think a guy who's dreaming of the chick next door will understand the guy who's dreaming of the dude across the street? Does it have to do with religion that much? Or does it happen anyway?

I don't understand this question. Please restate it.

I'm afraid I haven't convinced you, but that's about all I can say. We can agree to disagree if you want. Just... if you are so much a defender of rights as you've claimed to be, take a look at yourself right now and try to realize that you're tunneling instead of seeing the whole picture.

Well to be honest, you haven't presented anything factual. Simply saying I believe in this without some kind of evidence holds no weight what so ever and what makes people feel good doesn't prove the existence of or support any claims being made. Feeling good did not send man to the moon or put a plane in the sky. Anyway I'm going to be done with this until someone can provide sources and evidence for the claims they made. I did the best I could with statistics and researchable information.

 

[Chaos Jackal]

Xenophobia (or fear of the unknown or whatever else you wanna call it) is proven to exist. It is a fact. Religion may or may not enforce it, but it exists anyway. And that's the only fact I need to tell you that religion is not to blame wholly, but is more like a tool and an excuse that people use to justify their hatred. Everything else after that stems from the fact that you are unwilling to accept that religion isn't the only thing that causes problems out there. You say you don't like the word discriminating, but in the same paragraph you state that since someone is Christian, he supports the Bible by default. The hell? Being Christian automatically translates to being an idiot due to loss of all critical thinking, making someone completely and totally support the history of the Jews two thousand years ago told by the perspective of a religious leader's followers? Being a Christian automatically means that you view all blacks as lesser, all homosexuals as damned and all non-believers as trash? Every Christian accepts these by default? What's not discriminating about saying that?

Same with your statement about science. I'm all for it. I'm all for logical thinking, experimenting, and progressing. I'm all for unlocking the real mysteries of the universe instead of attributing them to some invisible, supreme entity. But not all are. And it's their right to do so. And yet again, going to the previous point, if someone is Christian, does it mean that he should reject all science? There are millions of Christians who consider a good part of the good book to be mere symbolisms, and are also all for progress and a better world, for they believe that man should take his own steps rather than wait for God's hand to come down and push him. But even for those who do not, it's their right to leave everything to their almighty God, whether you think it's right or wrong.

Not all Christians are members of the Westboro Baptist Church. Not all Muslims are part of ISIS. Not all people in 1500 Spain belonged to the Inquisition. Religion can be good, or can be bad. It depends on the people. The people aren't supporting a view by default by subscribing to a religion. They have every right to keep only what matters to them and discard the rest. Just because Hitler took advantage of Pius and used the pope's lust for power and control as a means to further enforce his own doesn't mean that every Christian alive now and then cheers for the Holocaust (Hitler also allied with Japan, and had a non-attack treaty with Stalin, by the way. But he relentlessly hunted communists and to his eyes, short yellow-skinned people were not much better than black. Everything is a means to an end.). Just as a fanatic priest will say that God rained fire and sulphur on the sinners of Sodom and Gomorrah and killed every innocent firstborn of the Egyprians as divine retribution and we should do the same to all we don't like, so will the guy across my street say that Christ forgave the prostitute and even the very people who crucified him, and as such we shouldn't just label someone a sinner and burn them. Putting the guy across the street on the same level as Hitler or the crazy priest is the discrimination you say you're not to be blamed of.

For the last time: yes, religion plays its part in the discrimination against homosexuals. But not all Christians are the same by default, neither is religion the only thing behind this discrimination.

I have nothing else to say to you.