The ORAS OU Metagame Discussion Thread

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It also gets STAB Iron Head. It doesn't seem amazing to me, but I could see scarf Bisharp having use surprising people who aren't expecting it.
 
Equinox said:
Yeah there are better things that could get a choice scarf. I think it's kinda lolsy to lock yourself into one move just to go around Sucker Punch's speed. Weavile is pretty much superior if you're going for a fast Dark-type; it's fast, can switch moves, gets priority Ice Shard, and hits practically everything Bisharp does except Fairies. The only other thing that Bisharp really does that Weavile can't is pressure Defog users.
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yeah These are just the things that Bisharp has to make you choose it over Weavile and mostly it works. Defog is so common and Fairy Pokemon are everywhere. Weavile can't stay for long and set up while Bisharp can.
As for CS Bisharp these are the things that I think it suppose to do: (Being Jolly)

Against CS Tyranitar:
252 Atk Bisharp Low Kick (120 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Tyranitar: 468-552 (137.2 - 161.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Against Mega Charizard Y:
252 Atk Bisharp Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Charizard Y: 520-612 (175 - 206%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Against SD Talonflame:
252 Atk Bisharp Stone Edge vs. 120 HP / 0 Def Talonflame: 564-664 (172.4 - 203%) -- guaranteed OHKO
And of course:
Against Latios:
252 Atk Bisharp Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Latios: 372-440 (124.4 - 147.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
 
I'm starting to see to much SR TW Clefable more than CM variants. Seems to be pretty effective as a good backbone that can spread paralysis and keep SR up.
 
BP Celebi + any Fighting-type / Pokemon to take incoming Pursuits is a great core. My favorite partners are probably Lopunny and Keldeo. Lopunny is better if you want a great late game cleaner thanks to its natural high speed, while Keldeo is great for checking a lot of Celebi's threats (Scizor, Tyranitar, Heatran) more consistently than any other possible partners. Celebi is definitely a great compliment to the popular Keldeo / Metagross core.
 
Hoopa and Hoopa-Unbound are both released in Japan now!

Please feel free to discuss your experiences battling with these new Pokemon in OU.

Hoopa-Unbound is the obviously superior Pokemon between the two. The offensive stats are awesome and it really hurts balance and stall teams. However, it really struggles against offense due to its low base speed. Whether or not this makes it broken or not will be the focus of many debates in the weeks to come.
 
Alternatively, it gets Thunder Wave. If you can get a free switch, you can Thunder Wave their Hoopa-U check (which, I can guarantee, uses its speed to check it as nothing walls Hoopa) and cripple it forever. It can essentially open up a sweep.

I'm not sure yet what team style Hoopa fits on yet. It's kinda slow for offense and it's too frail for balance. I'm running it on offense right now as it really helps a lot of offensive Pokemon pass their checks (looking at Hippowdon and Skarmory right now). I'm using Thundurus-I / Lando-T / Mega Lopunny / Hoopa-U and enjoying it.
 
While I haven't tried Hoopa yet (I don't play much these days), its low Speed definitely hinders it when it comes to offense. While offensive teams would rejoice at the appearance of such a powerful wallbreaker, this one has its share of problems revolving around its fitting in a much faster team. Of course, one could argue that the walls Hoopa will face don't pack any sort of Speed either, and that one could face opposing offensive teams by using something like Mega Lopunny or Thundurus-I, as PP already seems to have done. Guess it remains to be seen.
 
PG24 said:
Sets like mixed LO, Nasty Plot, or a stallbreaking set consisting of Knock Off, Toxic, and Taunt / Magic Coat can possibly be effective against slow stall teams. The 80 base speed is pretty shitty, but just enough that it outspeeds most relevant walls. As powerful as these sets are, they're held back by major 4mss (lack of room for Gunk Shot makes Fairy-types a pain, but you really can't fit it in on most sets) and its inability to do much against more offensive teams because it can't switchin or outspeed. These sets will probably still be used, but I doubt they'll be effective outside of complimenting another sweeper by removing stall.

The sets that sound more relevant are the varying scarf sets (physical, special, and mixed). These are the only sets, outside of a SubPunch set, that fix its most crippling weakness in speed. With increased speed, its weakness to more offensive teams is limited, while it still can wreck some stall teams with its access to Trick, The major problem I see is a lack of firepower compared to other sets since you're forced to run a +speed nature. Too lazy to pull up calcs, but I assume you'll miss out on a few important KOs the other sets would normally net.

I don't know if it's broken by just theorymoning what it can do. Going by history, there's never really been something as offensive with low speed and defense banned (inb4 wobbufett family). It reminds me a lot of pre-OU Black Kyurem where it looked good on paper but ultimately was less threatening when put into practice. I think there's way too many grey areas where we can just claim it as broken just by looking at the statistics and intangibles.

Daily reminder that speed is the only stat in Pokemon that is arguably the most simplistic yet important in terms of viability.
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I made this post in the Hoopa thread we had a few months back. A lot of my opinions from then still stand today. The thing that's keeping this thing from being broken is the fact that it's very matchup dependent. Scarf sets can actually take kills vs offensive teams, but it lacks the power to break stall and semi-stall. The sets that forgo Scarf are amazing versus defensive teams and cores, but it can easily be killed by an offensive team.
 
I don't think anyone thought Hoopa-U would be that good. WOW, this thing really becoming a supreme threat in the OU metagame. Its signature attacks with their fantastic ability to overcome Protect and Sub combined with gigantic offensive power are simply amazing..
 
As I've distanced myself quite a lot from competitive, I'm not really into recent developments. What's Hoopa's main purpose now that it's out?
 
Life Orb Wallbreaker/All-out attacker sets. At least from what I have seen so far. Mixed attacker. I guess you can compare it to Kyurem-B only better.
 
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Eh. I dunno. Its lackluster speed has made it pretty manageable for most of the teams I have. Pretty much anything with even the slightest possibility of running u-turn is an immediate threat that forces it out. It gets kills, no doubt, but I'm usually able to sacrifice something I'm sure I won't need for the rest of the match. And it's biggest STAB honestly isn't /that/ powerful. I agree with TDL, it seems like a very matchup dependent mon to me.
 
One Approved said:
Pretty much anything with even the slightest possibility of running u-turn is an immediate threat that forces it out.
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mfw every hoopa-u i have faced have died to my 0 atk jirachi's u-turn

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I would actually consider Hoopa top tier if it were not for its Speed.

...and its lack of resistences.
...and its poor physical bulk.
...and its matchup dependency.
...and its low base power movepool.
...and its weaknesses.
...and its 4mss.

Give the new toy hype time to cool down. In a few months, it'll be about mid tier competing with Black Kyurem as a slow mixed / dedicated wallbreaker.
 
PG24 said:
mfw every hoopa-u i have faced have died to my 0 atk jirachi's u-turn

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I would actually consider Hoopa top tier if it were not for its Speed.

...and its lack of resistences.
...and its poor physical bulk.
...and its matchup dependency.
...and its low base power movepool.
...and its weaknesses.
...and its 4mss.

Give the new toy hype time to cool down. In a few months, it'll be about mid tier competing with Black Kyurem as a slow mixed / dedicated wallbreaker.
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I think it's a lot better than Kyurem-B though. Simply because of the amount of moves Hoopa-U can have and the fact that it has huge base power on both special and physical offensive stats while Kyurem-B's special attack is just "normal" compare to its physical attack. Also, remember that Kyurem-B has much major flaw than Hoopa-U's speed, which is the lack of physical moves while having a gigantic physical base power. Hoopa-U is a powerful version of Kyurem-B with all the right moves for both of its amazing special and physical offensive powers.
 
scattered mind said:
I think it's a lot better than Kyurem-B though. Simply because of the amount of moves Hoopa-U can have and the fact that it has huge base power on both special and physical offensive stats while Kyurem-B's special attack is just "normal" compare to its physical attack. Also, remember that Kyurem-B has much major flaw than Hoopa-U's speed, which is the lack of physical moves while having a gigantic physical base power. Hoopa-U is a powerful version of Kyurem-B with all the right moves for both of its amazing special and physical offensive powers.
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I agree that it's better in some aspects, but Kyurem-B is far more bulky (to the point where some defensive mons just can't break it), faster (!!!!), and has slightly better STAB options (Dragon- and Ice-type are two of the best attacking types in the game). Just the fact it's bulky and not that slow (to the point where it can outspeed Gyarados, Dragonite, Altaria, and even Landorus-T if you max its speed out) is a major boon for offensive teams, whereas Hoopa's speed and bulk just make it deadweight sometimes versus offensive teams. I absolutely think it's a killer against stall, but that point is moot since the rarity of stall in today's offensive metagame makes this an almost worthless niche. The only Hoopa set that I think can function in this metagame while holding its own weight is Scarf, which hits less harder than LO Kyurem-B and can't wallbreak anymore.

Hitting hard is always good, but so is outspeeding threats and conforming to the way the metagame operates. I think Hoopa is great in some metagames, but not in OU's fast paced and offensive one.
 
PG24 said:
I agree that it's better in some aspects, but Kyurem-B is far more bulky (to the point where some defensive mons just can't break it), faster (!!!!), and has slightly better STAB options (Dragon- and Ice-type are two of the best attacking types in the game). Just the fact it's bulky and not that slow (to the point where it can outspeed Gyarados, Dragonite, Altaria, and even Landorus-T if you max its speed out) is a major boon for offensive teams, whereas Hoopa's speed and bulk just make it deadweight sometimes versus offensive teams. I absolutely think it's a killer against stall, but that point is moot since the rarity of stall in today's offensive metagame makes this an almost worthless niche. The only Hoopa set that I think can function in this metagame while holding its own weight is Scarf, which hits less harder than LO Kyurem-B and can't wallbreak anymore.

Hitting hard is always good, but so is outspeeding threats and conforming to the way the metagame operates. I think Hoopa is great in some metagames, but not in OU's fast paced and offensive one.
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Yeah, but Hoopa-U has a great special defense. I found it very good against some special offensive attackers. So it can switch into most special moves and being able to take another one and fight back. So don't you think the AV set is also viable?

(I'll check some calcs later)
 
252+ SpA Mega Alakazam Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Hoopa Unbound: 96-113 (31.8 - 37.5%) -- 90% chance to 3HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Gengar Sludge Wave vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Hoopa Unbound: 109-129 (36.2 - 42.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Heatran Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Hoopa Unbound: 96-114 (31.8 - 37.8%) -- 92% chance to 3HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Latios Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Hoopa Unbound: 148-175 (49.1 - 58.1%) -- 97.7% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Mega Manectric Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Hoopa Unbound: 81-96 (26.9 - 31.8%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Magnezone Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Hoopa Unbound: 129-153 (42.8 - 50.8%) -- 2% chance to 2HKO
 
While that's cool, you also have to consider the fact that you trade off power and offensive potential in order to survive those attacks. I did some calcs of 252+ Atk AV Hoopa-U vs 20 Atk LO Kyurem and it actually puts out less damage. Keep in mind, I focused on using only one attack with neutral coverage for both to get a good estimate of how powerful each is. If anything, I initially skewed this data in Hoopa-U's favor and still came out with unfavorable results.

20 Atk Life Orb Teravolt Kyurem-B Outrage vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 359-422 (55.9 - 65.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Hoopa Unbound Hyperspace Fury vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 279-328 (43.4 - 51%) -- 5.9% chance to 2HKO

20 Atk Life Orb Teravolt Kyurem-B Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 175-207 (41.6 - 49.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Hoopa Unbound Hyperspace Fury vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 135-160 (32.1 - 38%) -- 0.6% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

-1 20 Atk Life Orb Teravolt Kyurem-B Outrage vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Landorus-T: 142-168 (37.1 - 43.9%) -- 99.8% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
-1 252+ Atk Hoopa Unbound Hyperspace Fury vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Landorus-T: 109-129 (28.5 - 33.7%) -- 96.8% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

20 Atk Life Orb Teravolt Kyurem-B Outrage vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-W: 187-220 (61.7 - 72.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Hoopa Unbound Hyperspace Fury vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-W: 144-171 (47.5 - 56.4%) -- 31.3% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

20 Atk Life Orb Teravolt Kyurem-B Outrage vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Mega Venusaur: 172-203 (47.2 - 55.7%) -- 73.4% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Hoopa Unbound Hyperspace Fury vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Mega Venusaur: 132-156 (36.2 - 42.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

While I agree that AV does make it better in the matchup vs specially based offensive teams, it's sacrifices some of its power and advantages vs stall and bulky offense to do so. Also, in some situations like vs Latios, Serperior, and Starmie, Hoopa-U is walking away from these scenarios damaged to the point to where it's simply fodder. This is still considered an even trade off with the Hoopa-U player only slightly favored since they get fodder. I'll admit that trading one for one isn't complete deadweight, but that's not really a strong argument when Final Gambit Accelgor can also trade one for one.

Also, if we're going to have a discussion on what is the best wallbreaker for a slot on your team, you have to throw in Manaphy in this debate as well. Once setup, its ability to break through walls and live to tell the tale far exceeds that of Hoopa-U and Kyurem-B. It's far more splashable and can somewhat hold its own vs offense due to its bulk, speed, and having access to Scald.
 
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