Discussion Alolan Ninetales GX Post Rotation - Bodybuilding Dumbbells vs Choice Band

[Duo]

Hello all.

I've been starting to contemplate whether or not Bodybuilding Dumbbells or Choice Band is more worth it as the tool of choice for Alolan Ninetales GX post rotation. I'm just going to break this down mathematically in isolated situations based on a handful of anticipatable match ups and prize targets. If you're willing to, please assist with the math for other match ups of attackers you think will be common that I don't cover. If you see any critical mistakes in my math, feel free to call them out.

Hopefully my organization is easy to figure out.

Alolan Ninetales GX with Choice Band

-Ice Blade will always do 50 to bench.
-Choice Band has no influence on Ice Path GX.

Alolan Ninetales GX with Bodybuilding Dumbbells

-Ice Blade damage is consistent to whole field.
-Slightly increases usability of Ice Path GX.

Versus Alolan Ninetales GX with Choice Band

Choice Band

Fastest KO method: 1 Ice Blade (either bench or active) & 1 Blizzard Edge
Energy efficient KO: 3 Ice Blade (at least 2 of them must be to active)

Bodybuilding Dumbbells

Fastest KO method: 1 Ice Blade & 1 Blizzard Edge
Energy efficient KO: 5 Ice Blade

Versus Alolan Ninetales GX with Bodybuilding Dumbbells

Choice Band

Fastest KO method: 1 Ice Blade & 1 Blizzard Edge. The Ice Blade must be to active for 2 hit KO
Energy efficient KO: 4 Ice Blade (at least 2 of them must be to active)

Bodybuilding Dumbbells

Fastest KO method: 2 Ice Blade & 1 Blizzard Edge
Energy efficient KO: 5 Ice Blade

Versus Gardevoir GX

Choice Band

Fastest KO method: 1 Ice Blade & 1 Blizzard Edge. Ice Blade can hit either bench or active
Energy efficient KO: 3 Ice Blade, all must be to active, otherwise requires 4 Ice Blade (up to 3 on Bench)
Gardevoir GX OHKO method: 7 Energy between active Pokemon, or 6 Energy & Choice Band

Bodybuilding Dumbbells

Fastest KO method: 2 Ice Blade & 1 Blizzard Edge
Energy efficient KO: 5 Ice Blade
Gardevoir GX OHKO method: 9 Energy between active Pokemon, or 8 Energy & Choice Band

Versus Volcanion EX

Choice Band

Fastest KO method: 1 Blizzard Edge
Energy efficient KO: 2 Ice Blade
Volcanion EX OHKO method: 3 Steam Up, or 2 Steam Up + Choice Band

Bodybuilding Dumbbells

Fastest KO method: 1 Blizzard Edge
Energy efficient KO: 2 Ice Blade (both must be to active)
Volcanion EX OHKO method: 4 Steam Up, or 3 Steam Up + Choice Band

Versus Volcanion EX with Fighting Fury Belt

Choice Band

Fastest KO method: 1 Blizzard Edge
Energy efficient KO: 2 Ice Blade (both must be to active. 10 damage short of 1 Bench + 1 Active)
Volcanion EX OHKO method: 3 Steam Up. 10 damage short of 2 Steam Up OHKO

Bodybuilding Dumbbells

Fastest KO method: 1 Blizzard Edge
Energy efficient KO: 3 Ice Blade (1 to bench, 2 to active)
Volcanion EX OHKO method: 4 Steam Up. 20 damage short of 3 Steam Up OHKO

Versus Ho-Oh GX

Choice Band

Fastest KO method: 1 Blizzard Edge
Energy efficient KO: 3 Ice Blade, only 1 can be to bench
Ho-Oh GX OHKO method: 1 Steam Up, or Choice Band

Bodybuilding Dumbbells

Fastest KO method: 1 Ice Blade and 1 Blizzard Edge
Energy efficient KO: 4 Ice Blade
Ho-Oh GX OHKO method: 3 Steam Up, or 2 Steam Up with Choice Band

Versus Ho-Oh GX with Fighting Fury Belt

Choice Band

Fastest KO method: 1 Ice Blade and 1 Blizzard Edge
Energy efficient KO: 3 Ice Blade, 2 must be to active
Ho-Oh GX OHKO method: 1 Steam Up

Bodybuilding Dumbbells

Fastest KO method: 2 Ice Blade and 1 Blizzard Edge
Energy efficient KO: 5 Ice Blade
Ho-Oh GX OHKO method: 2 Steam Up

Versus Darkrai EX

Choice Band

Fastest KO method: 1 Blizzard Edge
Energy efficient KO: 3 Ice Blade, only 1 can be to Bench
Darkrai EX OHKO method: 11 Energy on field, or 9 Energy + Choice Band

Bodybuilding Dumbbells

Fastest KO method: 1 Ice Blade and 1 Blizzard Edge
Energy efficient KO: 4 Ice Blade
Darkrai EX OHKO method: 13 Energy on Field, or 11 Energy + Choice Band

Versus Darkrai EX with Fighting Fury Belt

Choice Band

Fastest KO method: 1 Ice Blade and 1 Blizzard Edge
Energy efficient KO: 3 Ice Blade, 2 must be to Active
Darkrai EX OHKO method: 10 Energy on field

Bodybuilding Dumbbells

Fastest KO method: 2 Ice Blade and 1 Blizzard Edge
Energy efficient KO: 5 Ice Blade
Darkrai EX OHKO method: 12 Energy on field

Versus Metagross GX

Go home

Versus Golisopod GX

Choice Band

Fastest KO method: 1 Ice Blade and 1 Blizzard Edge. Armor Press cannot slow this down
Energy efficient KO: 3 Ice Blade. 2 must be to active, and up to 1 Armor Press does not affect this
Golisopod GX Fastest KO method: 2 First Impression from bench, or 1 First Impression from bench and 1 Armor Press, with or without Choice Band. Choice Band can KO with 1 First Impression from bench and one while still in active.

Bodybuilding Dumbbells

Fastest KO method: 1 Ice Blade and 1 Blizzard Edge. Armor Press will require 1 more Ice Blade
Energy efficient KO: 5 Ice Blade, and up to 2 Armor Press does not affect this
Golisopod Fastest KO method: 3 First Impresion, 2 of which are from bench, or 2 First Impression, 1 bench and 1 active, and 1 Armor Press, or 3 Armor Press. With Choice Band, requires 2 First Impression, both from bench, or 2 Armor Press to KO.

Versus Tapu Any of Them GX

Choice Band

Fastest KO method: 1 Blizzard Edge
Energy efficient KO: 3 Ice Blade, 2 of which can be to Bench

Bodybuilding Dumbbells

Fastest KO method: 1 Ice Blade and 1 Blizzard Edge
Energy efficient KO: 4 Ice Blade

Versus Tapu Any of Them GX with Fighting Fury Belt

Choice Band

Fastest KO method: 1 Ice Blade and 1 Blizzard Edge
Energy efficient KO: 3 Ice Blade, 2 must be to Active

Bodybuilding Dumbbells

Fastest KO method: 1 Ice Blade and 1 Blizzard Edge, 2 Ice Blade if Tapu Bulu GX
Energy efficient KO: 5 Ice Blade

Versus Drampa GX

Choice Band

Fastest KO method: 1 Blizzard Edge
Energy efficient KO: 3 Ice Blade, 2 of which can be to bench
Drampa GX KO method: 2 Berserk, 1 of which can still only hit for 80, with or without Choice Band

Bodybuilding Dumbbells

Fastest KO method: 1 Ice Blade and 1 Blizzard Edge
Energy efficient KO: 4 Ice Blade
Drampa GX KO method: 2 Berserk, both of which must be 150 hitters, or one 80 Berserk and one 150 Berserk with Choice Band

Versus Drampa GX with Fighting Fury Belt

Choice Band

Fastest KO method: 1 Ice Blade and 1 Blizzard Edge
Energy efficient KO: 3 Ice Blade, only 1 can be to bench
Drampa GX KO method: 2 Berserk, one of which must be a 150 (160) hit

Bodybuilding Dumbbells

Fastest KO method: 2 Ice Blade and 1 Blizzard Edge
Energy efficient KO: 5 Ice Blade
Drampa GX KO method: 2 Berserk, one of which must be a 150 (160) hit. The other can still be base 80 (90)

Versus Decidueye GX

Choice Band

Fastest KO method: 1 Ice Blade and 1 Blizzard Edge. Ice Blade can be to either bench or active
Energy efficient KO: 3 Ice Blade, all of which must be to active
Decidueye GX KO method: 6 Feather Arrow and 1 Razor Leaf, or 2 Feather Arrow and 2 Razor Leaf, or 3 Razor Leaf. With Choice Band, 5 Feather Arrow and 1 Razor Leaf, or just 2 Razor Leaf

Bodybuilding Dumbbells

Fastest KO method: 2 Ice Blade and 1 Blizzard Edge
Energy efficient KO: 5 Ice Blade
Decidueye GX KO method: 7 Feather Arrow and 1 Razor Leaf, or 4 Feather Arrow and 2 Razor Leaf, or 3 Razor Leaf. With Choice Band, 7 Feather Arrow and 1 Razor Leaf, or 1 Feather Arrow and 2 Razor Leaf


I don't believe I covered everything, but I believe I covered a good amount. Again, please feel free to fill me in on other Pokemon I should be considering calculating for this list.

Honestly, I think this is very close. My dilemma right now is that getting OHKO at 210 HP sucks and makes Ice Path GX pointless. I feel that Alolan Ninetales GX is a deck that needs to get damage out starting on turn 2 while OHKO decks like Volcanion EX, Gardevoir GX, and Darkrai EX are still building for their opportunity to make a worth while swing. You need to be picking with Ice Blade ASAP so that you can just Blizzard Edge for KO before their set up is complete. If that's the case, then Bodybuilding Dumbbells has the potential to buy you one or more turns for your opponent to set up energy or find a field blower. You will notice that there are some pretty noticeable energy count differences in a lot of OHKO set ups. And while I did provide an "energy efficient" method of KOing, that's usually never how you want to go about doing things. You want 3 Blizzard Edges or 2 Blizzard Edges and 1 Ice Path GX per game to grab your 6 prizes.

Perhaps I'm worrying about getting OHKO'd too much and it's not something that actually happens that often, so what it boils down to is this:

If you're not ever at risk of getting OHKO'd, Choice Band.
If you're at risk of getting OHKO'd and it's not Metagross GX or Solgaleo GX, Bodybuilding Dumbbells.

I'd love to hear people's thoughts on this topic.

 

[crystal_pidgeot]

The biggest thing to factor is Field Blower, which should become a three of in decks post rotation. Because of that card, any item that needs to survive your opponent's turn is made naturally weaker where as if a Choice Band is removed, its fine because you already did the damage. If you can get it to stick around then great but anything over 200 damage becomes a instant KO when they do play Field Blower. It just isn't worth it for a card that will most likely get discarded.

 

[Duo]

The biggest thing to factor is Field Blower, which should become a three of in decks post rotation. Because of that card, any item that needs to survive your opponent's turn is made naturally weaker where as if a Choice Band is removed, its fine because you already did the damage. If you can get it to stick around then great but anything over 200 damage becomes a instant KO when they do play Field Blower. It just isn't worth it for a card that will most likely get discarded.

My rebuttal to this is that this assumes you're holding onto Choice Band until the turn of your attack. You can't guarantee drawing into it from a Sycamore or your own N, and you can't even guarantee playing Mallow + Abyssal Hand to search it out exactly on the turn you need to attack with it if your hand isn't in the right state to do that. If you're holding onto a Choice Band until the time of attack, you are risking it getting N'd away at a golden opportunity. Theoretically getting N'd is much better than getting field blowered since it still at least exists somewhere in your deck, but it doesn't change the fact that you won't get usage of it when you need it. And if you play Choice Band too early and your opponent can do math, they're going to field blower it away before it's suitable for use.

I didn't consider field blower as the primary determining factor because both Choice Band and Bodybuilding Dumbbells are subject to this issue. You don't want to drop them too early just to have them get blown away, and you can't hold onto them too long to lose them to N. You might even end up attaching a tool just to get more out of Abyssal Hand or to lose less out of using Sycamore. Pokemon Tools have threat of being lost whether on the field or in your hand, and corret play timing is a game-by-game basis.

Yes, if you drop Choice Band and Bodybuilding Dumbbells on the same turn to see use out of it, they have their turn to clear it out and Dumbbells won't see use. I get that fact.

The point of Dumbbells isn't to drop them when you think your opponent is already capable of 210+ damage. The point is to drop them just before they can build up that much damage so that it pushes them into an extra turn of using resources or an extra turn of setting things up. I consider this to be especially true against decks like Volcanion EX, Darkrai EX, and Gardevoir GX that need to build up to reach the numbers they want to see.

It's a risk, but if it buys you more turns to do more Ice Blades, then the sustainability has potential to lead to more damage over time than Choice Banding for +30 and dying.

I consider Choice Band to be a battle of speed. Choice Band means "I expect to take more KOs faster than you can KO me."

I consider Bodybuilding Dumbbells to be a battle of attrition. "If you want to KO me, you need to expend more resources than you expect while I continue to chip away at you for the same resources I already have."

I don't think of Alolan Ninetales GX as a fast deck with 50 damage Ice Blades to the bench and a 2 energy discard cost that's too expensive to use more than 3 times a game for 160 finishers. Its ceiling on damage per turn output is pretty low, but its tactical ability with Ice Blade is very high. I see it as a deck that needs to outlive its match up which is why I'm starting to consider the defensive options more than the offensive options.

 

[PMJ]

Choice Band is almost universally better. Outside of weakness, only Gardevoir and possibly Volcanion can easily threaten a OHKO on you, and all of them (save Metagross, who regrettably survives with 10 HP) fall to one Ice Blade (regardless of where it hits) and a banded Blizzard Edge. Those aren't decks you want to play attrition wars with as once they have a board established it becomes very difficult to keep up.

The threat of Ice Path GX also makes opponents think twice about swinging big hits into Ninetales without securing the KO. This can also buy you a turn or two as they go for the 2- or 3HKO. If you use one Ninetales to spread 50s around and then use the others to clean up, you'll be in good shape.

I subscribe to saving my tools unless I'm about to Sycamore them away. I would much rather have them shuffled back in as opposed to gone forever with 0 chance of getting any use. Saving your tools also forces your opponent to conserve their Field Blowers to erase two tools from your field as opposed to using it for Stadium control.

 

[Duo]

I think I'm probably approaching this issue from the wrong angle. I'm starting to see more why the Dumbbells just won't cut it.

I think how the mathematics boil down actually looks more like Dumbbells possibly getting you the first KO safely, but then losing in the long run without the damage potential to maintain pressure.

The wording helped me think about it differently. Thanks.

 

[JDA]

My choice on this is fairly simple as it so far has been true for me in any card game, eventually, the agressor is always rewarded slightly more. The way I see Choice Band working for any Pokemon that is up vs GX and EX means that the quality of the card in itself is more variend, functional and speeds up your chances to win.

Body Building Dumbbells are cool but to me still akin to regular healing and that usually doesn't cut it. By large because it does not excellerate the win, it just postpones it for your opponent.

So for me Choice Band is the clear winner. Things would have been much closer however if the Pokemon with BBD gained 50 or 60 HP.

 

[crystal_pidgeot]

My rebuttal to this is that this assumes you're holding onto Choice Band until the turn of your attack. You can't guarantee drawing into it from a Sycamore or your own N, and you can't even guarantee playing Mallow + Abyssal Hand to search it out exactly on the turn you need to attack with it if your hand isn't in the right state to do that. If you're holding onto a Choice Band until the time of attack, you are risking it getting N'd away at a golden opportunity. Theoretically getting N'd is much better than getting field blowered since it still at least exists somewhere in your deck, but it doesn't change the fact that you won't get usage of it when you need it. And if you play Choice Band too early and your opponent can do math, they're going to field blower it away before it's suitable for use.

You would much rather want to hold on to Choice Band than Dumbbells. When you play a Choice Band and can attack, you get the +30 damage so when your opponent removes it, it already did its job so if it can survive a turn and do it again, it's just icing on the cake. It's why Turbo Dark fell out of favor. Field Blower dealt with EXP Share, which removes their ability to keep Energy, thus damage on the board. Having to hold on to Tools means you have more things to keep track of where as tools with a play and forget style see more use. Wishful Baton is another good card, something Volcanion decks should play but the fact it has to survive the opponent's turn makes it harder and while cards like Float Stone are more the same, it's a card you can play and get an effect from, like Choice Band.

I didn't consider field blower as the primary determining factor because both Choice Band and Bodybuilding Dumbbells are subject to this issue. You don't want to drop them too early just to have them get blown away, and you can't hold onto them too long to lose them to N. You might even end up attaching a tool just to get more out of Abyssal Hand or to lose less out of using Sycamore. Pokemon Tools have threat of being lost whether on the field or in your hand, and corret play timing is a game-by-game basis.

You have to consider it as a factor, since Field Blower is at least a two of in every deck, possibly three post rotation. I tend to run as little tools as possible because I like to use them when I can and don't really like putting things in play I don't need to.

The point of Dumbbells isn't to drop them when you think your opponent is already capable of 210+ damage. The point is to drop them just before they can build up that much damage so that it pushes them into an extra turn of using resources or an extra turn of setting things up. I consider this to be especially true against decks like Volcanion EX, Darkrai EX, and Gardevoir GX that need to build up to reach the numbers they want to see.

I'm not sure what you mean by this. In my opinion, HP modifiers need to be effective. Anything that can survive a hit don't really have a use for it since anything that is going to 2HKO it will do it anyway. It was really made to deal with things that can get a OHKO on a Stage 1 Pokemon. Thing is A Ninetales GX has a decent GX attack so that could combo well for it. Gardevoir GX is going to OHKO you anyway.

It's a risk, but if it buys you more turns to do more Ice Blades, then the sustainability has potential to lead to more damage over time than Choice Banding for +30 and dying.

How so? All the meta decks now can 2HKO the entire format. If you can make it work for you, then great but you'd almost always want Choice Band.

I consider Choice Band to be a battle of speed. Choice Band means "I expect to take more KOs faster than you can KO me."

That is fine I guess but what will Dumbbells do if they get discarded. You have to assume your opponent is able to deal with it.

I consider Bodybuilding Dumbbells to be a battle of attrition. "If you want to KO me, you need to expend more resources than you expect while I continue to chip away at you for the same resources I already have."

Bodybuilding Dumbbells are a non sequitur for me. I will always deal with it given the chance and if I can't I can still 2HKO you. In two turns, I can hit 260+ damage, which is more than Ninetale's 250 HP max with the tool. As a matter of fact, I can do something cute like put enough damage on to get a natural KO and then blow away the Dumbbells.

I don't think of Alolan Ninetales GX as a fast deck with 50 damage Ice Blades to the bench and a 2 energy discard cost that's too expensive to use more than 3 times a game for 160 finishers. Its ceiling on damage per turn output is pretty low, but its tactical ability with Ice Blade is very high. I see it as a deck that needs to outlive its match up which is why I'm starting to consider the defensive options more than the offensive options.[/QUOTE]

Choice Band lets you hit 190 with your second attack and with things like Aqua Patch in the format, this is something to consider. You're not supposed to be using just Ice Blade. The reason spread decks work is because you lock something in the Active spot and can afford to hit the Bench. There are a ton of switching cards so this will be hard to pull of. You want to hit the 190 because a lot of things are in KO range of it.

You have to ask yourself two things;

1. Can I effectively use this thing in a Field Blower format?
2. Does it allow me to survive longer than I normally would (if I'm in 2HKO range anyway, does this matter?)

 

[JDA]

Cant but like it crystal_pidgeot as I feel the same. What you mentioned into detail is exactly how I feel about these types of cards. It's cool that they excist as this allows the design team to thinker or consider with Abilities that stop even more damage but overall that's also where I feel Items like it are limited to. The comparison to Fighting Fury Belt and Choice Band is closer for example, but not the one at hand .

All in all I also believe that the design team purposefully made Choice Band like this because it is a designed GX and EX "check" with this I mean that tools like these help to prefent a format solely revolving around GX or EX Pokemon. To a large extend they allready do but the tool in itself allows for many decks to remain relevant.

From my perspective we also do a a great healer, in the form of Acerola. BBD is also worse as Acerola because Acerola allows it to be used on any Pokemon with damage and because all those cards are returned you can get a lot of milage out of your near KO active Pokemon. Again in many cases Guzma will be more effective and this is also what we will see in our meta but largely because Guzma also has the option to put the active to the bench so while it's offensive with a good set up it can also become defensive.

The moral is, the aggressor usually wins. Choice Band allows for this more as BBD, Guzma allows for this more as Acerola, etc.