Standard Alolan Ninetales GX

[gumball51321]

I actually cut one of my BUS Alolan Ninetales for one of the Evosoda (-1 BUS Alolan Ninetales, -2 Kukui, +3 Soda). This is my personal preference/playstyle, but I feel that Alolan Ninetales BUS and Alolan Ninetales GX are two completely different deck directions. If you're planning for the BUS wall, why play any GXs? Outside of maybe 1 Lele on bench to get Brigette, adding more GXs to the field just ruins the defense of BUS. Even if your opponent is running 1 or 2 tech Pokemon to out you, you're not going to lose with 2 to 3 BUS Alolan Ninetales on your side. For example, if you battled my deck and I layed out my BUS, your 2 BUS would just roll over my 1 copy anyway. I would honestly go ahead and flip the ratio to 2/3 GX/BUS if you want to go for the slow & steady but near certain win. The only thing that can guarantee wins against BUS is Meta(ng)google GX, but that deck is GG against any Alolan Ninetales build. And if you're playing GX's, investing energy into BUS to attack just takes away from Blizzard Edge, so I only use one to act as a shield as I charge up my GX's, then Float stone/Guzma/Retreat + Aqua Patch that sucker out of there, and if I set up fast enough I don't even need that. When I can have a turn 2 Alolan Ninetales GX with a DCE on it in my active, I'd rather go for that.

I don't know if I'm composing my thoughts well enough, but basically I think that GX and BUS contradict one another. I would personally pick one to focus on, and the other one just run 1 or 2 of as a failsafe. Speaking for myself, the only thing that stops me from going straight 4/4 BUS for nearly guaranteed wins is that it's a boring way to both win and lose.

And just personally, I'm never worried about the 1 card prize. Prizing is just a mandatory risk that's part of the game. Since my build is focused on winning off of Alolan Ninetales GX, my primary strategy is never compromised by prizing the BUS.

Yes, but the BUS is still a secondary attacker and CRUCIAL to winning games against Gardevoir and Metagross. I agree that it's completely different than the GX, that 's really the reason why it's so good. Also, Ninetales GX can't hit for 80 on a non-GX, so Espeon EX(which for whatever reason, you're not playing) can combo with baby Ninetales really well. With your current list, do you just say "oh well" to the Metagross autoloss when it's easily preventable with a tech good for several matchups?

 

[Duo]

Yes, but the BUS is still a secondary attacker and CRUCIAL to winning games against Gardevoir and Metagross. I agree that it's completely different than the GX, that 's really the reason why it's so good. Also, Ninetales GX can't hit for 80 on a non-GX, so Espeon EX(which for whatever reason, you're not playing) can combo with baby Ninetales really well. With your current list, do you just say "oh well" to the Metagross autoloss when it's easily preventable with a tech good for several matchups?

No? I didn't cut Alolan Ninetales BUS from my list completely. I have it at one because I only felt the need for one, which I'm certain you disagree with otherwise you wouldn't be commenting on the list.

I would consider Espeon EX to be counter intuitive to use against Metagross GX if you're planning on walling with Alolan Ninetales BUS - devolving gives them an opportunity to go back into Metang and OHKO your BUS. You have to be certain they have no Metang available and no rescue stretcher to save the discarded ones if you plan on devolving, and you also have to be certain that they don't have Rare Candy available to just go back into the Metagross GX you just put back into their hand, choice band (or if choice band was already attached before since Espeon EX doesn't touch tools or energy), and OHKO Espeon EX for 2 prizes. And since Alolan Ninetales BUS doesn't have much of a choice on what it's attacking, this isn't the same as Necrozma GX attack into Espeon EX for an instant devolve and 3+ prizes. You can devolve KO the active, but what about the bench? You're going to need a lot of Guzmas. I would sooner run 2 copies of Alolan Ninetales BUS than 1 BUS and 1 Espeon EX as the BUS synergizes with my deck list much better than a 1 of EX, but I would never consider 2 BUS and 1 Espeon EX unless Greninja BREAK becomes one of the most popular decks in the meta. I just don't see a point in devolving 2 prize GX's into 1 prize basics when you have the ability to set up an anti-EX/GX barrier with 2 BUS.

If you're that adamant about 2x Alolan Ninetales BUS, I can cut down 3 float stone to 2 since I use Tapu Koko as my Retreat/Guzma pivot anyway, which I can Brigette early game/Ultra Ball for if I feel the game calls for it. You're going to have to convince me more to add an Espeon EX into this list though. I like the card, but I don't like it when we have Alolan Ninetales BUS as a 1 prize solution with much easier play timing in a deck that doesn't rapidly spread massive AoE damage like Necrozma/Metagross to fully utilize the devolve.

 

[gumball51321]

No? I didn't cut Alolan Ninetales BUS from my list completely. I have it at one because I only felt the need for one, which I'm certain you disagree with otherwise you wouldn't be commenting on the list.

I would consider Espeon EX to be counter intuitive to use against Metagross GX if you're planning on walling with Alolan Ninetales BUS - devolving gives them an opportunity to go back into Metang and OHKO your BUS. You have to be certain they have no Metang available and no rescue stretcher to save the discarded ones if you plan on devolving, and you also have to be certain that they don't have Rare Candy available to just go back into the Metagross GX you just put back into their hand, choice band (or if choice band was already attached before since Espeon EX doesn't touch tools or energy), and OHKO Espeon EX for 2 prizes. And since Alolan Ninetales BUS doesn't have much of a choice on what it's attacking, this isn't the same as Necrozma GX attack into Espeon EX for an instant devolve and 3+ prizes. You can devolve KO the active, but what about the bench? You're going to need a lot of Guzmas. I would sooner run 2 copies of Alolan Ninetales BUS than 1 BUS and 1 Espeon EX as the BUS synergizes with my deck list much better than a 1 of EX, but I would never consider 2 BUS and 1 Espeon EX unless Greninja BREAK becomes one of the most popular decks in the meta. I just don't see a point in devolving 2 prize GX's into 1 prize basics when you have the ability to set up an anti-EX/GX barrier with 2 BUS.

If you're that adamant about 2x Alolan Ninetales BUS, I can cut down 3 float stone to 2 since I use Tapu Koko as my Retreat/Guzma pivot anyway, which I can Brigette early game/Ultra Ball for if I feel the game calls for it. You're going to have to convince me more to add an Espeon EX into this list though. I like the card, but I don't like it when we have Alolan Ninetales BUS as a 1 prize solution with much easier play timing in a deck that doesn't rapidly spread massive AoE damage like Necrozma/Metagross to fully utilize the devolve.

Well, the thing is, you wouldn't devolve unless you either 1: know you're putting your opponent in a position where they HAVE to Rare Candy in order to not die, and/ or cannot kill your Espeon no matter what, or 2: devolve AFTER attacking with the Baby Ninetales. A. Ninetales does 80 damage, and against GX decks, that's the magic number to kill stage 1's, other than Metang, which I just googled and realized it has 90 HP -_-. But still... Baby Ninetales can win matchups by itself, and Espeon can contribute to said KO's, especially against Rare Candy decks where you either turn their 200+HP pokemon into a helpless basic, or kill it because of the "measly" 80-90 damage can be something they possibly overlooked.

 

[Duo]

Well, the thing is, you wouldn't devolve unless you either 1: know you're putting your opponent in a position where they HAVE to Rare Candy in order to not die, and/ or cannot kill your Espeon no matter what, or 2: devolve AFTER attacking with the Baby Ninetales. A. Ninetales does 80 damage, and against GX decks, that's the magic number to kill stage 1's, other than Metang, which I just googled and realized it has 90 HP -_-. But still... Baby Ninetales can win matchups by itself, and Espeon can contribute to said KO's, especially against Rare Candy decks where you either turn their 200+HP pokemon into a helpless basic, or kill it because of the "measly" 80-90 damage can be something they possibly overlooked.

My issue with that strategy is the lack of consistency. Guaranteeing the card while guaranteeing the circumstance while guaranteeing your bench space is a lot to ask for as something you can rely on as a win condition.

I upped my Alolan Ninetales BUS back up to 2 for -1 Float Stone as I said in my previous post and I'm running with that for now.

I just think you need to have too many circumstances and cards align in order to properly use Espeon EX against Metagross GX in this deck. Metagross GX will forever be a hard match up for this deck because it doesn't hit hard enough to surpass the 250 HP threshhold rapidly without Kukui and Choice Band for +50 damage Blizzard Edge, and Kukui ruins your ability to play Guzma to control your targets which makes for another awkward scenario where Ice Blading the bench doesn't help you. Sitting on 1 or 2 BUS Alolan Ninetales after your opponent has fully evolved to Metagross GX is the safest way to get this done, in my opinion. If your opponent has no outs and your bench doesn't have a total of 6 prizes on it, you only ever need 1, which is why I originally only ever felt the need for 1, but it is true that only 1 copy can be easily played around by other decks.

 

[gumball51321]

My issue with that strategy is the lack of consistency. Guaranteeing the card while guaranteeing the circumstance while guaranteeing your bench space is a lot to ask for as something you can rely on as a win condition.

I upped my Alolan Ninetales BUS back up to 2 for -1 Float Stone as I said in my previous post and I'm running with that for now.

I just think you need to have too many circumstances and cards align in order to properly use Espeon EX against Metagross GX in this deck. Metagross GX will forever be a hard match up for this deck because it doesn't hit hard enough to surpass the 250 HP threshhold rapidly without Kukui and Choice Band for +50 damage Blizzard Edge, and Kukui ruins your ability to play Guzma to control your targets which makes for another awkward scenario where Ice Blading the bench doesn't help you. Sitting on 1 or 2 BUS Alolan Ninetales after your opponent has fully evolved to Metagross GX is the safest way to get this done, in my opinion. If your opponent has no outs and your bench doesn't have a total of 6 prizes on it, you only ever need 1, which is why I originally only ever felt the need for 1, but it is true that only 1 copy can be easily played around by other decks.

Oh, no, you're right, I was just making a point if worst case scenario were to occur. Metagross decks in I think, Europe(?) are playing GRI Mimkyu, and even though it can't kill a baby Ninetales, it still hurts it right? Oranguru also OHKO's Ninetales, but I don't see very many decks playing that over Octillery. The Espeon, like I said, is for worst case scenarios, as well as easy early game disruption. Even though it's kind of irrelevant to this topic, I've won a LOT of 1-sided Greninja games because of Espeon, and I've also bodied some Gardevoir, Metagross, and Vikavolt decks because they either, 1: Rare Candy'd then got devolved back to a basic, or 2: can't fully evolve into stage 2's because of case 1, and/or they can't draw Candys. Try it out at least, it's easy to tech, and it REALLY shouldn't be inconsistent, since it's based around your main strategy, putting 50 damage on specific Pokemon and taking advantage of said damage. My brain isn't fully functioning today, so I'm leaving out/ miss-wording some of my key points, so forgive me for looking like an idiot right now. I need to take a nap, so just playtest Espeon for me and just watch the magic happen against stage 2 decks.

 

[Kennu]

@gumball51321
How does your build look like where you're able to fit in the Espeon?

I've been playing a list with Evosodas because I found that a lot of the times, getting N'd after a turn 2 Beacon puts me in a bad spot if I don't draw into ways to get into my evolutions. By playing 2x Evosodas, it increases the probability to see my evolutions. The current tech spot for the Metagross match up is Turtonator, which I find to be "okay". I've tried the Espeon EX before, but perhaps I'm misusing it, but I found it to be underwhelming as it doesn't do as much as I want. Could you shed some insight as to how I'm suppose to be using the Espeon?

 

[gumball51321]

@gumball51321
How does your build look like where you're able to fit in the Espeon?

I've been playing a list with Evosodas because I found that a lot of the times, getting N'd after a turn 2 Beacon puts me in a bad spot if I don't draw into ways to get into my evolutions. By playing 2x Evosodas, it increases the probability to see my evolutions. The current tech spot for the Metagross match up is Turtonator, which I find to be "okay". I've tried the Espeon EX before, but perhaps I'm misusing it, but I found it to be underwhelming as it doesn't do as much as I want. Could you shed some insight as to how I'm suppose to be using the Espeon?

Sure. Many people think that it's mainly there to take KO's on big GX's by devolving them, in fact, that's why I put it in. But, it's actual use goes deeper than that. Against any evolution based deck, Espeon just devolves them until they A: run out of Rare Candy, or B: Change their game plan. Once they do this, you have them in your clutches, and you start to take out the baby with Ninetales GX. Since Ninetales is obviously hard to kill if you're not set up, this is a big problem. And if they DO set up the big stage 2 while you snipe it, then you get exactly what you want out of Espeon EX. The best thing I can say is try this yourself. Espeon is super splashable in any deck, and it's super broken in an evolution based format.

 

[Kennu]

Okay I understand it now, in a sense, it's forcing the game to slow down / making it unplayable for your opponent.

 

[gumball51321]

Okay I understand it now, in a sense, it's forcing the game to slow down / making it unplayable for your opponent.

Exactly. This is the exact reason I think this card will be banned. Like Archeops, it's easily played around, or doesn't affect decks at all. But for the decks it DOES affect, it effectively destroys. Like I said, try it yourself, but just be smart while playing it. If your opponent Diancies a Kirlia into Gardy, you better be ready with a Ninetales. And I'm sure you know this, but just because you slow the game down doesn't mean you slow down on setting your board up, that's more than likely how you'll actually win. I would also say for any Greninja players that they 100% autoloss to Espeon EX. If you use Talonflame or Water Duplicates, I just put ALL of them back to your hand, then proceed to set up until I start taking stupidly easy prizes, or I kill your only basic in play because you can't Water Duplicates again.

 

[Kennu]

I will test this out more tomorrow, though if theorymon does hold, I feel like Ninetales has the elements of a "BDIF" (I hate this word because I come from YuGiOh, and this is actually a problem), as Espeon EX covers the weaknesses of Ninetales before.

 

[Sharkrai]

I've been finding that Greninja decks are a bit hard to deal with. Any suggestions as to how to deal with them? Or is espeon ex the best option? I also had issue with garbotoxin, but I think that was just bad luck as I had already used the one field blower in my deck and the other one was in my prize.

Edit: Do you guys think the cards revealed so far for Crimson Invasion could be of good use in A. Ninetales decks? I'm kind of interested in lusamine, but the fact that she's a supporter hurts a bit, though just getting cards you need back into your deck is always super useful.

 

[Duo]

Tapu Koko's Flying Flip is almost mandatory for winning the match up. Flying Flip as soon as possible when all Frogadiers are on the board, and then proceed to ice blade KO them one at a time (20 + 50 = 70 for a perfect KO on Frogadiers). This will also put you in KO range with your Blizzard Edge for when they reach Greninja BREAK (20 + 160 = 180).

To almost guarantee the win, tech in a Giratina promo if people in your area seem to be playing a lot of Greninja BREAK.

Espeon EX is a viable choice as well, but you have to set up KO's in advance by dropping 7 damage counters on 2-3 Greninja/Greninja BREAK with above mentioned strategy before doing it. You might not be alive to do that if 2-3 Greninja/Greninja BREAK are on the board. You don't necessarily have to save Espeon EX for devolve KOs, but just understand that the playability of the card is a game by game basis. Just don't expect to win because you have it and you devolve.

 

[Matthew the Fairy Lover]

I've been finding that Greninja decks are a bit hard to deal with. Any suggestions as to how to deal with them? Or is espeon ex the best option? I also had issue with garbotoxin, but I think that was just bad luck as I had already used the one in my deck and the other one was in my prize.

Edit: Do you guys think the cards revealed so far for Crimson Invasion could be of good use in A. Ninetales decks? I'm kind of interested in lusamine, but the fact that she's a supporter hurts a bit, though just getting cards you need back into your deck is always super useful.

The best bet for Greninja decks is the XY184 promo Giratina. His 'Devour Light' ability removes the abilities of all Pokemon BREAKs, which includes the abilities of previous evolutions. This card is the reason why Zachary Bokhari's Alolan Ninetales-GX deck beat Michael Long's Greninja BREAK deck in the Senior finals of the world championships this year, and what's great is the card is not that expensive, and it survived the rotation, I highly recommend it though only play 1 as Greninja is the only deck that is really playing any BREAKs this format.

I'm also leaving a link to my Alolan Ninetales-GX build just in case that helps you refine your build as I've had quite a lot of fun and I had lots of success with, beating a Gardevoir-GX deck by using Tapu Fini-GX's snipe attack for game on a benched Tapu Lele-GX.

http://www.pokebeach.com/forums/threads/alolan-ninetales-breakthrough-on.142705/

 

[Sharkrai]

Sounds like the best bet is to either get some tapu koko in or put the promo giratina in. Personally, putting the giratina in and taking the sudowoodo out sounds like a super good idea as sudowoodo's main use, MRay, is now rotated. I will see what I can do to test out the giratina on tcgo and where to go from there, thanks to both of you!

Thanks to you too Matt, I can't work on refining right away, but the reference point and ideas it's giving me are a big help!!

Oh, I also changed the ilima to wicke as it sounded like a better option and more reliable. It's worked pretty well so far as well in the aspect that I sometimes don't want to risk letting an opponent get too many more cards than they already have, though that is, as in many cases, situational.

-1 ilima
+1 wicke

 

[Matthew the Fairy Lover]

Sounds like the best bet is to either get some tapu koko in or put the promo giratina in. Personally, putting the giratina in and taking the sudowoodo out sounds like a super good idea as sudowoodo's main use, MRay, is now rotated. I will see what I can do to test out the giratina on tcgo and where to go from there, thanks to both of you!

Thanks to you too Matt, I can't work on refining right away, but the reference point and ideas it's giving me are a big help!!

Oh, I also changed the ilima to wicke as it sounded like a better option and more reliable. It's worked pretty well so far as well in the aspect that I sometimes don't want to risk letting an opponent get too many more cards than they already have, though that is, as in many cases, situational.

-1 ilima
+1 wicke

You are most welcome, Sharkrai. I'm happy that my list was able to help. If you want to start a PM conversation about Alolan Ninetales as I've been playing the deck since the GX came out in Guardians Rising, then I am more than happy to so we can discuss on tech choices and ideas, but it's up to you.

 

[Sabaku]

Wicke by itself is actually a rather useful card draw if you're only using 1 or 2 of them. Good luck getting a full playset of FA N, though. With Vs. Seeker rotated, you'll need the card draw.

 

[gumball51321]

Espeon-EX is a much better counter to Greninja than the Giratina. If you get it out before they get a single Greninja on the field, you win the game. It's also a versatile card overall in this new meta. But good luck getting them, the regular arts shot up to about 13 USD, and the full art sitting at 19 USD.

 

[Kennu]

I believe the ruling to Greninja is that Espeon EX can't force them to pick up the Frogadiers, as the Frogadiers are not evolved Pokemon.

 

[Sharkrai]

I actually tried out a Greninja break/A. Ninetales GX deck once for fun and it actually didn't do too bad. Probs would need to edit it heavily because of meta matchups as well as the rotation, but it's still an interesting concept.

You are most welcome, Sharkrai. I'm happy that my list was able to help. If you want to start a PM conversation about Alolan Ninetales as I've been playing the deck since the GX came out in Guardians Rising, then I am more than happy to so we can discuss on tech choices and ideas, but it's up to you.

Haha, I would love to! I'll send you a pm when I get around to it as the fall semester just started and I'm back and forth trying to get used to it, so my apologies if I send it a bit late.

Espeon-EX is a much better counter to Greninja than the Giratina. If you get it out before they get a single Greninja on the field, you win the game. It's also a versatile card overall in this new meta. But good luck getting them, the regular arts shot up to about 13 USD, and the full art sitting at 19 USD.

Just my luck to pull a full art one on tcgo orz haha guess it's expected though considering you can't get quite as many free packs irl ;P

I believe the ruling to Greninja is that Espeon EX can't force them to pick up the Frogadiers, as the Frogadiers are not evolved Pokemon.

That's a very interesting point. Are there any battle videos out there that have such match ups (whether they do pick up the frogadiers or don't)? I'm kind of interested as to how the battles actually played out in either scenario.

 

[gumball51321]

I believe the ruling to Greninja is that Espeon EX can't force them to pick up the Frogadiers, as the Frogadiers are not evolved Pokemon.

Nope, Frogs are still evolution Pokemon. So Miraculous Shine picks them up. Even though you don't evolve them to put them on the field, that doesn't change the ruling that they're evolution Pokemon. Espeon-EX puts the highest stage evolution into your opponents hand. So even if the highest stage evolution doesn't have anything under it, as long as it says Stage 1 on the card, it's still an evolved Pokemon.