Standard Altar of the Sunne in my Metagross Deck?

[HouchinsDJ]

I'm looking for feedback on my Metagross GX deck. I've been contemplating adding 2 Altar of the Sunne to help compensate for Metagross' weakness to Fire, but I'm not sure if it's worth adding. Here are the pros and cons that I've come up with:

Pros:

• Helps even the match-up against Volcanion and other Fire-type decks.
• Force my opponent to use Field Blower, which could potentially save my needed Choice Bands.
• Better than running Weakness Policy because Choice Band is absolutely needed for Metagross to get certain OHKOs.

Cons:

• Only useful against Fire-type decks.
• Can be removed by Field Blower.
• Takes up deck space that could be better utilized.

I guess what it comes down to is having a way to deal with Metagross' Fire-type weakness worth the deck space, and if it is, what do I remove to make space for it?

****** Pokémon Trading Card Game Deck List ******

##Pokémon - 17

* 4 Beldum GRI 83
* 2 Metang GRI 84
* 4 Metagross-GX GRI 85
* 1 Dhelmise GRI 59
* 2 Necrozma-GX BUS 134
* 2 Tapu Lele-GX GRI 137
* 2 Alolan Vulpix GRI 21

##Trainer Cards - 31

* 1 Heavy Ball BKT 140
* 1 Rescue Stretcher GRI 130
* 4 Choice Band GRI 121
* 4 Professor Sycamore BKP 107
* 1 Super Rod NVI 95
* 3 Guzma BUS 115
* 4 Ultra Ball SUM 135
* 1 Brigette BKT 161
* 4 N FAC 105
* 2 Field Blower GRI 125
* 2 Max Potion GRI 128
* 4 Rare Candy SUM 129

##Energy - 12

* 8 Metal Energy EVO 98
* 4 Psychic Energy EVO 95

Total Cards - 60

****** Deck List Generated by the Pokémon TCG Online www.pokemon.com/TCGO ******

 

[GhostXEmpire]

I personally don't like Dhelmise, it clutters your bench and doesn't offer too much IMO.
I'd play a 3rd Lele in it's place.

 

[HouchinsDJ]

I personally don't like Dhelmise, it clutters your bench and doesn't offer too much IMO.
I'd play a 3rd Lele in it's place.

Yeah, I'm not a huge fan of Dhelmise. However, it does provide an important role. It allows Metagross to OHKO 190HP Pokemon like Ho-Oh GX with a Choice Band, which is a OHKO you need to get if you have any hopes of winning that matchup. I'm going to keep it in for now since it's been running fine, but I could see myself swapping it out for the third Lele in the future depending on how the format looks.

 

[gumball51321]

Have you thought about a 1-of Ninetales GX? It hits fire stuff for weakness and sets up KO's on Pokemon with 200+HP. It's GX is also super good. I think Necrozma is only needed as a 1-of, so I would drop 1 for a Ninetales GX and test out if that is good. Players in my area who lean towards Metagross like to use Ninetales, so you never know. Again, I think that this would be better than Altar of the Sunne, because the cons you listed outweigh the pros. I also never thought about using Dhelmise like that, but it also works as a good baby Ninetales counter. I also think that 3-4 Max Potion is optimal, so literally every other deck that isn't fire has a bad time against you.

 

[HouchinsDJ]

Have you thought about a 1-of Ninetales GX? It hits fire stuff for weakness and sets up KO's on Pokemon with 200+HP. It's GX is also super good. I think Necrozma is only needed as a 1-of, so I would drop 1 for a Ninetales GX and test out if that is good. Players in my area who lean towards Metagross like to use Ninetales, so you never know. Again, I think that this would be better than Altar of the Sunne, because the cons you listed outweigh the pros. I also never thought about using Dhelmise like that, but it also works as a good baby Ninetales counter. I also think that 3-4 Max Potion is optimal, so literally every other deck that isn't fire has a bad time against you.

I'll definitely try Ninetales out. I've seen a few Metagross decks online use it and never thought about using it myself.

 

[Kyle Busch]

I play Metagross GX so I have some thoughts. I think just the inclusion of field blower in every deck makes the Altar a bad card. Great effect, but it isn't a stadium that affects your turn, it effects your opponent's turn. They can always get rid of it and you can't do anything about it. I think the idea of Ninetales is a nice thought, definitely better than Altar of the Sunne for dealing with weakness. At the end of the day, Volc is almost autoloss unless they dead draw. I also agree that you should run at least 3-4 Max Potions.

One card that you could probably replace is super rod, you want energies in your discard for Metagross to cycle through. Maybe add another stretcher for easy evolutions.

If you were set on adding in the stadiums:

+2-3 Altar of the Sunne

-1 Super Rod
-1 NecrozmaGX
-1 Dhelmise

Good luck with your build!

 

[HouchinsDJ]

I play Metagross GX so I have some thoughts. I think just the inclusion of field blower in every deck makes the Altar a bad card. Great effect, but it isn't a stadium that affects your turn, it effects your opponent's turn. They can always get rid of it and you can't do anything about it. I think the idea of Ninetales is a nice thought, definitely better than Altar of the Sunne for dealing with weakness. At the end of the day, Volc is almost autoloss unless they dead draw. I also agree that you should run at least 3-4 Max Potions.

One card that you could probably replace is super rod, you want energies in your discard for Metagross to cycle through. Maybe add another stretcher for easy evolutions.

If you were set on adding in the stadiums:

+2-3 Altar of the Sunne

-1 Super Rod
-1 NecrozmaGX
-1 Dhelmise

Good luck with your build!

Yeah, I get what you're saying. I guess I was just thinking that having SOME way to deal with the Fire-type weakness was better than no way. I might still mess around with it, but I do still like the Ninetales suggestion.

 

[Adi]

I have ran a very successful Metagross deck and it doesn't run any counters to Volcanion. I think most good players know there are some matchups you just can't win. Even with Altar of the Sunne or Alolan Ninetales they can find ways around it. I actually run both decks, so I know how well the counters will work. Trust me any decent Volcanion player should be able to find a way around Alolan Ninetales and Altar of the Sunne. I would just let this matchup go, and hope you don't verse too many Volcanion decks. Don't waste space in your deck for one matchup you probably still won't win.

 

[HouchinsDJ]

I have ran a very successful Metagross deck and it doesn't run any counters to Volcanion. I think most good players know there are some matchups you just can't win. Even with Altar of the Sunne or Alolan Ninetales they can find ways around it. I actually run both decks, so I know how well the counters will work. Trust me any decent Volcanion player should be able to find a way around Alolan Ninetales and Altar of the Sunne. I would just let this matchup go, and hope you don't verse too many Volcanion decks. Don't waste space in your deck for one matchup you probably still won't win.

I think it's a bad strategy to just hope you don't run into a certain match-up, especially when that match-up is a deck that sees a lot of play. I run both decks as well, so I'm aware. I understand that type match-up is a part of the game, and that it can heavily tilt the favor in one player's favor. By your comment, decks shouldn't run techs and should just accept bad match-ups as auto-losses. I think it's at least worth looking at ways to deal with bad match-ups. That's just how I look at it at least. Thanks for the feedback.

 

[Adi]

I actually like teching in cards. For example in my Metagross deck I run a tech to counter Garbodor's Garbotoxin. I used to run 2 Field Blowers, but now I run 3. This is a good tech because it has play outside of the Garbodor matchup. I mean everyone uses tools in these new formats. I know Volcanion is a good deck because I also play it, but we have yet to see if it is that popular a deck in competitive play. Also I can maybe understand teching in 1 card if it makes you have 40-60 chance of winning, but I don't think Altar of the Sunne or Alolan Ninetales can do that. Alolan Ninetales can only hit for 100 whereas if they are setup the can hit for 210 with the additions of Ho Oh GX and Turtonator GX. To actually be able to find an Altar of the Sunne when you need it you probably have to waste 2 spaces in your deck which may not seem like a lot but it is. Plus with 2 Field Blowers and 3 Brooklet Hills in most good Volcanions decks they can get rid of Altar of the Sunne pretty easily. I hope this helps.

 

[Duo]

The way I think of adding in tech cards is that if it doesn't help me with more than one match up or one situation, then it's not worth the deck space.

Adding an Alolan Ninetales GX not only gives you a potentially better match up against fire, but it also contributes to you being able to snipe a 200/210 HP Stage 1 GX on the bench (like Golisopod GX), then Guzma for Giga Hammer KO. Not only that, but Alolan Ninetales GX is far more searchable granted the 4 Ultra Ball and Alolan Vulpix (if the Beacon ever sticks). Tossing in 2 Altar of the Sunne, you just might not ever see it during your match ups against fire and lose anyway. Your pros and cons consider the what ifs of when the card is in play, but they don't address the issue of how likely you are going to get them in play.

The issue with Ninetales is that the most common fire match up is Ho-Oh GX/Volcanion EX, in which case your Alolan Ninetales GX is just going to get OHKO'd as well, anyway. Also, you can only ever hit for up to 160 Ice Blades with Choice Band in a deck with no Water Energy, which doesn't OHKO anything worth OHKOing in fire.

Altar of the Sunne simply gives you situational immunity to fire, if you actually draw it, and if they don't field blower it on their turn.

In my opinion, the only way to beat your weakness is to OHKO them back, so I would focus entirely on your options for OHKOing fire as opposed to surviving fire, even if that means more Dhelmise to see it more often.

 

[HouchinsDJ]

I actually like teching in cards. For example in my Metagross deck I run a tech to counter Garbodor's Garbotoxin. I used to run 2 Field Blowers, but now I run 3. This is a good tech because it has play outside of the Garbodor matchup. I mean everyone uses tools in these new formats. I know Volcanion is a good deck because I also play it, but we have yet to see if it is that popular a deck in competitive play. Also I can maybe understand teching in 1 card if it makes you have 40-60 chance of winning, but I don't think Altar of the Sunne or Alolan Ninetales can do that. Alolan Ninetales can only hit for 100 whereas if they are setup the can hit for 210 with the additions of Ho Oh GX and Turtonator GX. To actually be able to find an Altar of the Sunne when you need it you probably have to waste 2 spaces in your deck which may not seem like a lot but it is. Plus with 2 Field Blowers and 3 Brooklet Hills in most good Volcanions decks they can get rid of Altar of the Sunne pretty easily. I hope this helps.

The way I think of adding in tech cards is that if it doesn't help me with more than one match up or one situation, then it's not worth the deck space.

Adding an Alolan Ninetales GX not only gives you a potentially better match up against fire, but it also contributes to you being able to snipe a 200/210 HP Stage 1 GX on the bench (like Golisopod GX), then Guzma for Giga Hammer KO. Not only that, but Alolan Ninetales GX is far more searchable granted the 4 Ultra Ball and Alolan Vulpix (if the Beacon ever sticks). Tossing in 2 Altar of the Sunne, you just might not ever see it during your match ups against fire and lose anyway. Your pros and cons consider the what ifs of when the card is in play, but they don't address the issue of how likely you are going to get them in play.

The issue with Ninetales is that the most common fire match up is Ho-Oh GX/Volcanion EX, in which case your Alolan Ninetales GX is just going to get OHKO'd as well, anyway. Also, you can only ever hit for up to 160 Ice Blades with Choice Band in a deck with no Water Energy, which doesn't OHKO anything worth OHKOing in fire.

Altar of the Sunne simply gives you situational immunity to fire, if you actually draw it, and if they don't field blower it on their turn.

In my opinion, the only way to beat your weakness is to OHKO them back, so I would focus entirely on your options for OHKOing fire as opposed to surviving fire, even if that means more Dhelmise to see it more often.

Yeah, for sure. I understand what you're both saying. I actually ran into a Metagross deck online yesterday that used the baby Alolan Ninetales with some Water Energies thrown in, and I was ironically using my Ho-Oh/Volcanion/Salazzle deck, haha. It caught me off guard and my opponent played zero bench Pokemon so I couldn't play around it. I was ultimately able to use my baby Volcanion to KO it after a couple turns but it almost single-handedly won the game for her. I don't think it would work as well in a Best of 3 setting, but I gotta give her some credit.

 

[gumball51321]

The way I think of adding in tech cards is that if it doesn't help me with more than one match up or one situation, then it's not worth the deck space.

Adding an Alolan Ninetales GX not only gives you a potentially better match up against fire, but it also contributes to you being able to snipe a 200/210 HP Stage 1 GX on the bench (like Golisopod GX), then Guzma for Giga Hammer KO. Not only that, but Alolan Ninetales GX is far more searchable granted the 4 Ultra Ball and Alolan Vulpix (if the Beacon ever sticks). Tossing in 2 Altar of the Sunne, you just might not ever see it during your match ups against fire and lose anyway. Your pros and cons consider the what ifs of when the card is in play, but they don't address the issue of how likely you are going to get them in play.

The issue with Ninetales is that the most common fire match up is Ho-Oh GX/Volcanion EX, in which case your Alolan Ninetales GX is just going to get OHKO'd as well, anyway. Also, you can only ever hit for up to 160 Ice Blades with Choice Band in a deck with no Water Energy, which doesn't OHKO anything worth OHKOing in fire.

Altar of the Sunne simply gives you situational immunity to fire, if you actually draw it, and if they don't field blower it on their turn.

In my opinion, the only way to beat your weakness is to OHKO them back, so I would focus entirely on your options for OHKOing fire as opposed to surviving fire, even if that means more Dhelmise to see it more often.

I agree. Ninetales isn't nearly an autowin tech for Volc, but it makes the matchup slightly better, and is good against other decks as well. Also keep in mind that if they Kiawe to a Pokemon, Ninetales can get a free snipe, then the 160 Ice Blade WILL matter. I also agree that Dhelmise is important for the Volc matchup, but I say to stick with just 1. Kiawes after T1 will give the Metagross players time to get an out to winning, and unless they hit Max Elixirs and/ or Energy attachments, killing a Ho-oh early game is huge. On paper, Volcanion is an autoloss, but I think the matchup is better than people give credit for. Rather than 70-30, I would say that it's more of a 60-40 matchup in Volcanion's favor. I think the biggest concern is a T2 Ho-oh taking 2 prizes, then T3 banded Salazzle KO-ing for another 2 prizes. And although that isn't hard, you have to set up really well to do so.

 

[Adi]

I don't think the 160 will honestly matter that much. If you can't know their pokemon out in 1 turn it it pointless in my opinion. Most good Volcanion decks can get for 210 if they want to. Turtonator' 160 attack plus 2 Steam Ups already does it, so if they run Starmie which most decks too it's not hard. With Ho Oh they only need Choice Band or 1 a Steam Up. I would just let the match go. Most competitive matches are out of 3 which makes you strategy to counter it even harder because you have to pull it off twice. I hope this helps.