Discussion Are Stage 2s... Even Powerful?

[bbninjas]

I've been thinking about Stage 2 viability more so recently due to the increasingly support for evolutions as well as possible combinations with Cradily PLB. On looking through all the Stage 1s, I have come to this profound conclusion P) that there really isn't anything overly powerful. Most attacks cost two energy for 60, three energy for 80 and four or five energy for 150. Compare that to EXs and even Stage 1s, where you've got two energy for 120, three energy for 160 and four energy 200+.

So, the power is lackluster, but aren't the Abilities pretty good? Well, not really. More often than not, there is something else in format that can do the same only quicker and more consistently. For an example, Metagross AOR is outclassed by Escape Rope. A consistent line should be about 2-2-2, or 6 cards, at the very least. When you considered you could add 3 Escape Rope, 2 Switch and 1 AZ in the same space, one will often agree that the alternative is generally better. Still, you might say, you've got things like Dragonite ROS and Rhyperior PRC that don't really have a replacement. Well, you're right, but consider this - how useful are they actually? In a format that can hit numbers in the 200s for 1-hit KOs, you can see how these examples abilities are not really of much use.

I hear so often that the reason Stage 2s aren't viable in the current format is that they take too long to set up. Now, I'm starting think this is not necessarily true. There are Robo Subsitutes to hide behind, Wally and Rare Candy to speed up, EXP Share to recover from Knock Outs and Pokemon Fan Club to stream. I think the speed is there but the power lacks. I think that if Stage 2s are going to ever become good, there needs to be a desperate creep in Stage 2 power - either from consistent buffers or simply an increase in base power.

So, what do you think it is about Stage 2s that makes them pretty much unviable? Do you agree with me? Disagree?

 

[Ivy_Profen]

The only stage 2 I ever use anymore is shiftry. It hits pretty hard and it's leaf draw ability is pretty good as well.

 

[tototavros]

I've been thinking about Stage 2 viability more so recently due to the increasingly support for evolutions as well as possible combinations with Cradily PLB. On looking through all the Stage 1s, I have come to this profound conclusion P) that there really isn't anything overly powerful. Most attacks cost two energy for 60, three energy for 80 and four or five energy for 150. Compare that to EXs and even Stage 1s, where you've got two energy for 120, three energy for 160 and four energy 200+.

So, the power is lackluster, but aren't the Abilities pretty good? Well, not really. More often than not, there is something else in format that can do the same only quicker and more consistently. For an example, Metagross AOR is outclassed by Escape Rope. A consistent line should be about 2-2-2, or 6 cards, at the very least. When you considered you could add 3 Escape Rope, 2 Switch and 1 AZ in the same space, one will often agree that the alternative is generally better. Still, you might say, you've got things like Dragonite ROS and Rhyperior PRC that don't really have a replacement. Well, you're right, but consider this - how useful are they actually? In a format that can hit numbers in the 200s for 1-hit KOs, you can see how these examples abilities are not really of much use.

I hear so often that the reason Stage 2s aren't viable in the current format is that they take too long to set up. Now, I'm starting think this is not necessarily true. There are Robo Subsitutes to hide behind, Wally and Rare Candy to speed up, EXP Share to recover from Knock Outs and Pokemon Fan Club to stream. I think the speed is there but the power lacks. I think that if Stage 2s are going to ever become good, there needs to be a desperate creep in Stage 2 power - either from consistent buffers or simply an increase in base power.

So, what do you think it is about Stage 2s that makes them pretty much unviable? Do you agree with me? Disagree?

Pokemon has always had large amounts of non-viable cards, that isn't just because of EXs, it's how PCL works.
There have been several VERY interesting Stage 2s...Delphox XY, Greninja XY, Aegislash XY, Dusknoir FLF, Shiftry FLF, Poliwrath/Politoed FUF, Victreebel FUF, Blaziken FUF, Chandelure PHF, Hydreigon PHF, Sceptile non-AT PCL, Ludicolo PCL, Swampert AT PCL, Eelektross PCL, Nidoqueen AT PCL, Kingdra AT PCL, Flygon AT PCL, Beautifly ROS, Dustox ROS, Togekiss AT ROS, both Dragonite google, Salamence ROS, Gardevoir AOR, and both Porygon-Zs.

Not all of them are completely viable, but all of them have niches that can be very good in a non Item lock dominated format.

 

[orthusaku]

Looking at the cards, I would say it has to do with a possible internal design goal to make stage 2s to be less desirable or have them be a drawing point to a different type of player.(timmy johnny spike)

 

[bbninjas]

Pokemon has always had large amounts of non-viable cards, that isn't just because of EXs, it's how PCL works.
There have been several VERY interesting Stage 2s...Delphox XY, Greninja XY, Aegislash XY, Dusknoir FLF, Shiftry FLF, Poliwrath/Politoed FUF, Victreebel FUF, Blaziken FUF, Chandelure PHF, Hydreigon PHF, Sceptile non-AT PCL, Ludicolo PCL, Swampert AT PCL, Eelektross PCL, Nidoqueen AT PCL, Kingdra AT PCL, Flygon AT PCL, Beautifly ROS, Dustox ROS, Togekiss AT ROS, both Dragonite google, Salamence ROS, Gardevoir AOR, and both Porygon-Zs.

Not all of them are completely viable, but all of them have niches that can be very good in a non Item lock dominated format.

I would certainly agree that there are interesting Stage 2s, but my point is more so that they are either outclassed or can't hold their own due to low power. This is what I mean:
- It is more consistent to use Electrode/Octillery + Acro Bikes instead of Delphox, at least in my opinion.
- Greninja is goodish, although 1 for 50 and 1 for 30 (technically) is somewhat small.
- Aegislash has a huge attack cost and is somewhat easy to take down with Lysandre/Effect breakers.
- Shiftry is good.
- Dusknoir is good as a support.
- Poliwrath/Politoed don't have amazing attacks, but it is a rogue.
- Victreebel can't support itself by attacking - it is just utility only.
- Blaziken also has a huge attack cost and has difficulty 1-hit KO EXs.
- Chandelure does not really have decent firepower to go with its ability.
- Hydreigon is a bit outclassed by Mega Turbo, Yveltal XY and other energy accelerators.
- And I think you see my point.

 

[KoL]

Only two Stage 2s in Standard that stand out to me right now are PHF Crobat and AOR Vileplume, primarily for their abilities. Crobat (and its pre-evolution) both provide an immediate benefit as soon as they hit the board with no energy requirement whatsoever, Vileplume similarly provides an immediate and powerful effect the moment it hits the board and its evolution can be sped up with Forest of Giant Plants, which removes the rather severe weakness of Stage 2s often having to wait two turns to hit the field without providing anything beneficial during those two turns.

I'd say Stage 2s definitely do need to be made stronger to make up for the time/items they can go through to even get them on the field.

 

[Purrloin]

So, what do you think it is about Stage 2s that makes them pretty much unviable? Do you agree with me? Disagree?

I personally think the biggest problem Stage 2's have is their previous stages generally being pretty useless. Evolving Basics rarely, if ever, are good for anything. Evolving Stage 1's are typically only marginally stronger than their Basic form. It's just so risky to have all these sitting ducks, even if Stage 2's were made stronger.

What we need are at least viable Stage 1's, so that they can hold their own HP-wise and deal some decent damage while waiting to evolve, especially in cases where Rare Candy or Wally, etc., aren't available.

It's just weird to me how a franchise centered around evolving discourages evolving so much...

Also I agree with a lot of the cards @tototavros listed. In a non-EX-heavy format, most of those cards would be devastating. I personally consider Salamence (Roaring Skies 57) to be one of the best -- and one of the most under-appreciated -- cards in Standard. It's just discouraging for me to use it when it's easier to splash a Basic.

 

[crystal_pidgeot]

I, trying to make the pidgeot card from Flash Fire work but its so hard to. Its like any stage 2 pokemon that is an attackers aren't viable because they cant take hits and take too many resources just to get knocked out by a basic EX with less. Its like the stage 2 pokemon has to play support roles for EX basics. I was really hoping the Break evolutions would fix this but they don't. A lot of stage 2 Pokemon have really good abilities but I want to see them do more. As of now, its too punishing to any player using because they can't afford to lose any attacking stage 2 Pokemon.

If EX pokemon weren't around then a lot of these cards are really good but the problem is basic EX Pokemon are faster, requires less resources and offer more in terms of deck building since you have more spaces for other trainer cards.

Pokemon has always had large amounts of non-viable cards, that isn't just because of EXs, it's how PCL works.
There have been several VERY interesting Stage 2s...Delphox XY, Greninja XY, Aegislash XY, Dusknoir FLF, Shiftry FLF, Poliwrath/Politoed FUF, Victreebel FUF, Blaziken FUF, Chandelure PHF, Hydreigon PHF, Sceptile non-AT PCL, Ludicolo PCL, Swampert AT PCL, Eelektross PCL, Nidoqueen AT PCL, Kingdra AT PCL, Flygon AT PCL, Beautifly ROS, Dustox ROS, Togekiss AT ROS, both Dragonite google, Salamence ROS, Gardevoir AOR, and both Porygon-Zs.

Not all of them are completely viable, but all of them have niches that can be very good in a non Item lock dominated format.

I feel non-viable isn't the right word in this case. Sure some cards weren't usable but many still had uses is some kind of deck. The last EX format has a ton on useful cards and wasn't as trainer focused as the game is now. The problem here is stage 2 Pokemon requires too many deck spaces. Running a 4-2-4(3) line with Rare Candy/ Wally requires at least 13 to 15 cards just to get the stage 2 out. This means you can't run more trainers. With basic EX Pokemon, you have 9 to 11 more trainers you can run or more tech options. We simply have a mechanical problem here. Evolving basics need more HP, stage 1 Pokemon need more HP and stage 2 Pokemon need more HP and damage output. Maybe give them all the A.T. that heals all their damage but something needs to happen so they are useable. Then again, the last ex format was ruled by stage 2 Pokemon so maybe they wanted this.

 

[pokedan24]

In standard XY on, the only stage 2s I noticed seeing any play are bats and plume. Now, vileplume is a pretty big, shutting off items is well worth the resources stage 2s take. Though I think a lot is aided by the grass stadium card (which makes any grass stage 2 at least worth a look).

As for bats, it's that the whole line is good. You don't even need rare candy. Golbat itself is viable as a stage 1 so you're not at a huge disadvantage if you can't get set up (plus they're splashable).

 

[Talkingcat]

There are tonnes of stage 2s that have amazing abilities:

• Delphox- it's like Shaymin EX every turn
• Dusknoir- people play Absol just to move 30 damage once, Dusknoir lets you move unlimited damage, every turn
• Dragonite- fully heal one of your Pokemon
• Hydriegon- move dark energy around at will
• Sceptile- attach an extra grass energy and heal 30

The list goes on and on. If basics had abilities like this they would range from amazing to game-breaking.

The best stage 2s really are powerful. It's just speed, consistency and deck space.

 

[crystal_pidgeot]

There are tonnes of stage 2s that have amazing abilities:

• Delphox- it's like Shaymin EX every turn
• Dusknoir- people play Absol just to move 30 damage once, Dusknoir lets you move unlimited damage, every turn
• Dragonite- fully heal one of your Pokemon
• Hydriegon- move dark energy around at will
• Sceptile- attach an extra grass energy and heal 30

The list goes on and on. If basics had abilities like this they would range from amazing to game-breaking.

The best stage 2s really are powerful. It's just speed, consistency and deck space.

This is true but the biggest deal is these Pokemon are basics and are normally less of a burden. Shaymin is used because it uses at most 4 deck spots where as Delphox takes at least 8, using 2-1-2 and candy if you want something consistent. That means that 4 less cards you can run if you used Shaymin EX. Same with Absol, its 1 card, maybe 2 max versus the same 8 cards. The good thing about those cards is they remain in play but with how fast the game is now, they are seen as a burden to get in play. With the grass stadium, Sceptile is really the only fast card.

The issue with stage 2 Pokemon now is that they only support Pokemon EX. Attacking stage 2 Pokemon dont have a chance and I would like to see that change. The game needs some kind of balance with the two but I don't think it can be done fairly.

 

[My Little Keldeo]

Feel free to spot me if I missed any of the (few) Stage 2 Pokemon that are seeing play right now, or could see play in the near future. This is mostly from an Expanded perspective, but I'll attempt to discuss Standard as well, when applicable.

Blastoise BCR : Does this even count? Technically it's a Stage 2, but it's currently played by bypassing evolution via Archie's Ace in the Hole. Regardless, this method is quick and efficient. You can expect to see this guy in droves in Expanded decks for the forseeable future.

Crobat PHF : Archeops spells trouble for this guy, but he's still quite formidable, as others have said. Crobat is nice becaus eit doesn't rely on Rare Candy, and instead rewards you for evolving with the full line... again and again and again. The Mighty Bat will show his face in both Standard and Expanded. The real question is what partners will perform best with him at this time.

Vileplume AOS : This card has been talked about a lot ever since it was first revealed. Locking items simply by existing is a powerful effect indeed, and is part of a long-standing tradition of Vileplume cards that goes all the way back to Team Rocket! Nowadays though, Item lock on both players is quite crippling, even for the person who put Vileplume down. Thanks to Forest of Giant Plants and AZ you can get momentary breaks without letting up on your opponent, but it still requires having everything you'd like to play in hand and give up your draw Supporter for the turn. While it may see some use in Standard, perhaps paired with Giratina or some other locking card, Seismitoad-EX and Trevenant XY are better options in Expanded play. And with Float Stone being reprinted in the next set, the Gengar-EX Trevenant archetype doesn't lose anything, so there's another limit. Vileplume is interesting, but there may simply be other cards that do its job better.

Garchomp DRX : This card has seen some play in Japan along with Altaria DRX. Gabite's Ability allows you to search your deck for Dragon Poiton, letting you pull the evolutions you need from your deck without worrying about Item lock, all the while Garchomp's first attack can do heavy damage and discard Special Energy. However, this card has seen such little use worldwide, mainly due to player preferencesand has always been somewhat of a fringe deck ever since it was introduced.

The bottom line is Stage 2 decks were hurt by all this Item lock more than anything else, because they relied so much on items like Rare Candy, Level Ball, etc. to get their Pokemon out quickly and in large numbers. Even with some very powerful attacks and abilities, it's a bit of a moot point if you can';t card your Pokemon out in the first place. I am hoping that the new BREAK evolution mechanic will mix things up. My guess is that in future sets we will see more support for Evolved and BREAK Pokemon. If you recall, Mega Evolutions got off to a slow start until they received support and more efficient attacks. It's a safe assumption that BREAK cards should get stronger and easier to bring out as time goes on. Unfortunately... I fear much of their support is going to be in the form of Items.

 

[bbninjas]

There are tonnes of stage 2s that have amazing abilities:

• Delphox- it's like Shaymin EX every turn
• Dusknoir- people play Absol just to move 30 damage once, Dusknoir lets you move unlimited damage, every turn
• Dragonite- fully heal one of your Pokemon
• Hydriegon- move dark energy around at will
• Sceptile- attach an extra grass energy and heal 30

The list goes on and on. If basics had abilities like this they would range from amazing to game-breaking.

The best stage 2s really are powerful. It's just speed, consistency and deck space.

- Think about it like this. Delphox had a replacement in Electrode, and has an upcoming replacement in Octillery. There is also Shaymin.
- Dusknoir is definitely good. I cannot argue with that. Unfortunately it doesn't really hold its own in the damage output.
- Dragonite is also good. That said, there is Max Potion, Super Potion, Rough Seas and a whole bunch of other decent healers that is more consistent. Furthermore, in a 1-hit KO format, this sort of ability has limited uses.
- Hydreigon is good but somewhat outclassed. If you're look at making a toolbox style of deck, you have Aromatisse as a replacement. If you're looking at trying to keep your dark Pokemon alive, Max Potion + Yveltal is generally better. If you're looking at keeping [D] Energy circulating, Yveltal XY, Y Cyclone, Mega Turbo and Dark Patch (in Expanded) are generally more consistent.
- Sceptile is not overly powerful in a 1-hit KO in regards to abilities, and with things like Bronzong, a simple energy acceleration like this is a bit lackluster for a Stage 2. Besides, there are Mega Turbos and M-Sceptile, and there was Virizion-EX, for the energy acceleration.

 

[Ms Hugo]

AT Kingdra is a decent card, a little frail but you can power it up instantly with DDE and another energy, then just discard the DDE. 150-170 damage isn't the best in the current format, but it's not bad.

Competitively it's pretty useless of course, but.

 

[Jorgie]

In my opinion, Stage 2's should be in the same HP and Power category as EX pokemon. I think it's a farce how poor stage 2's are in general with the odd exceptions.

 

[Mora]

- Dusknoir is definitely good. I cannot argue with that. Unfortunately it doesn't really hold its own in the damage output.

It's attack is horrible, but you should never be attacking with it anyways.

- Dragonite is also good. That said, there is Max Potion, Super Potion, Rough Seas and a whole bunch of other decent healers that is more consistent. Furthermore, in a 1-hit KO format, this sort of ability has limited uses.

If Max Potion wasn't getting a reprint, it would have been interesting to see if this card actually saw play. I had thought about playing it with Primal Groudon and Focus Sash. One thing that Dragonite still has that Max Potion doesn't is that you don't have to discard any Energy. I know there are ways to get around that such as Aromatisse, but not everything can really take advantage of it. Max Potion is still better overall, especially in Expanded.

 

[Asclepius24]

If Max Potion wasn't getting a reprint, it would have been interesting to see if this card actually saw play. I had thought about playing it with Primal Groudon and Focus Sash. One thing that Dragonite still has that Max Potion doesn't is that you don't have to discard any Energy. I know there are ways to get around that such as Aromatisse, but not everything can really take advantage of it. Max Potion is still better overall, especially in Expanded.

A few people did try Dragonite with Primal Groudon to some degree of success in Premier Events. I don't remember if they used Focus Sash or not. It works, but is a little too slow to keep up.