Ball Engine - Viability pre- & post-rotation.

Arcanyx

Arcanyx

Aspiring Trainer
Member
Hello everyone, with the release of Dark Explorers we finally get to know what could possibly be the cards in the format for Nationals (and possibly Worlds?). The distinct engine which has been gently sprouting since BW was released is the return of a Ball engine. Below are the listed cards we have now (disregarding rotation):

Dual Ball
Poke Ball
Great Ball
Level Ball
Heavy Ball
Ultra Ball

My discussion question is this: is there a future for the Ball Engine? And if so, which of these would feature prominently? With the exception of Poke Ball, of course, can the other Balls each be equally as popular as the next or would some just be used dominantly more so than another? Share what you think of each Item card, and in what decks would each feature in.

I'm trying to gather as much insight, details and information as I can, and if the discussion takes off I might come up with an article on it prior to Nats. Thanks in advance for all the input.
 
Maybe if it had a Roseanne's like supporter, it's be more viable.. Right now, balls are only used for certain decks for a quick search.
 
^ Right now, ball engine is the superior engine and has been for some time. It allows you to burn through your deck quickly (which is a good thing especially in this extremely fast format where you can't afford to not take a prize every turn) and isn't a dead draw mid to late game (like Collector). Collector is complete garbage at the moment (the obvious exception being decks that feature Vileplume, but even those can utilize the power of the ball engine before the lock is set up) so you really don't have much of a choice when it comes to cards that search out basics.

I would say that the big three balls are Level Ball, Dual Ball and Ultra Ball. Those are the best ones in my opinion. Level Ball is useful in any deck because almost every decks run some low HP Pokémon and Level Ball can get those for you easily. It is also not restricted to only basic Pokémon (like Dual Ball) so you can get stage 1's and the like, which decks like ZekEels really appreciate. Dual Ball is useful in any deck because well all decks run basics and Dual Ball gets those for you. On average the card will net you 1 Basic which is really good when you consider that the card doesn't have any real drawback. Ultra Ball is in my opinion the best card of them all because it gets you any Pokémon with no restrictions. Level Ball can't grab Pokémon with 100 + HP, Dual Ball only gets basics, but Ultra Ball gets anything. Extremely strong. The drawback is harsh but most decks can deal with it, usually there will be a card or two in your hand that you can afford to discard (like Random Reciever or Switch because you usually want 1 of those in the discard so you can Junk Arm for it when you really need it). The other 3 balls I consider a bit "worse" than the ones I just mentioned but one of them is not too bad actually it's just very situational and doesn't fit many decks. I'm talking about Heavy Ball.

Poké ball is bad because it's way too flippy, Great ball is bad because it can fail and doesn't allow you to choose which Pokémon you get, finally Heavy Ball has some uses in decks like ReshiBoar and Terrakion but ouside of that does not see much play.

I predict Ultra Ball to become really,really huge, even in decks that don't have synergy with the drawback of the card. I think we're gonna see many players take out their Dual Balls for Ultra Balls or run a combination of the two if they can afford it.
 
Ultra ball only really works in zekeels... typhlosion find of, but not really.
I disagree that collector is "complete junk." Collector is still a staple card in almost all decks.
The ball engine is brilliant, with only one flaw: if you come up against a plume deck or zeblock, you're done for.
The best of the balls are level ball and ultra ball, as they both fit well in the current BDIF, zeels.
 
No, collector is not a staple. Have you seen the recent top players and the decks they play? Go watch some recent matches from states/regionals and tell me how many ZekEels and CMT players you see play Collector.

Trainer lock isn't really an issue since by the time they get Vileplume out, you'll have already played most of your balls and your field should be good to go.

The reason people abandoned Collector is because the format is so fast you can't afford to run it. You need to hit your energy drops every turn, you need to play a draw supporter every turn so you can draw into that Catcher or Junk Arm you need in order to take a prize. Need a Mewtwo and a DCE to return a KO? Well if you play Dual Ball you can pull that off easily. Dual Ball for the Mewtwo, then play a Juniper and draw into that DCE. With Collector you wouldn't be able to do that. Collector makes it much harder for you to get a fast set-up and keep up mid to late game and that is why you don't want to play it.
 
People are still making top 8 with Collector engines, so clearly it still works.

I do agree that the Ball engine is better, but Collector is not garbage.
 
After the rotation, the ball engine is going to gain a lot of power. I feel that the rotation is going to be Call of Legends on, so I am writing my views for that format. There aren't going to be any good search Supporters, so you are going to have to play various balls to get the Pokémon you need. Either that or you have to try to draw into the Pokémon you need, which is obviously unreliable. There is no Supporter to search out basic Pokémon. I'm currently stocking up on Dual Ball, I'm at 20 right now.
 
Guys, I think you are overemphasizing the format's speed. ZekEels can get set up T3 maybe T2 if lucky, and MTC and ZPST are the only T1 decks (ZPST sometimes). I think that after rotation, obviously the ball engines are best. Level ball will be maxed out in eels, and Ultra ball will be used in most other decks, including eels. Right now, Dual ball is used in speed decks that are T1 attacking, which is pretty much only MTC and ZPST variants. Durant uses level ball/Dual ball and collector to search out, and most decks run collector, because a T1 search for three basics and no downfall other than being a supporter is huge. Thats where Smeargle comes in- Smeargle allows you to abuse supporters and be able to use both a Collector and another supporter in one turn.

I don't prefer Dual Ball as of right now because it can fail. Plus, you need multiple to search out the same amount of basics as collector, and even that is purely by chance. I hate wasting junk arms on things to set up, it is just a waste. Also, you can search out collector.
 
I feel like Great Ball could be moderately okay after rotation, but yeah, Level Ball and Ultra Ball are the best.
Hopefully we keep CoL, Dual Ball is good.
 
RogueChomp said:
Right now, Dual ball is used in speed decks that are T1 attacking, which is pretty much only MTC and ZPST variants. Durant uses level ball/Dual ball and collector to search out, and most decks run collector, because a T1 search for three basics and no downfall other than being a supporter is huge.
Click to expand...

Actually most Zekrom/Eels have been running Dual Balls from what I've seen (so you're wrong on only two decks running it). Sure, there are Collector versions, but I've noticed that they are vastly inferior when going up against a Dual Ball version of the deck. This is simply because why would you waste a Supporter during this turn and not be able to get a needed attack off like the T1 Charge? It's just better when you're wanting to attack right out of the gate and decks in the Format can't afford to sit and wait even though Collector gets your Basics 100% of the time.

That being said, the core Ball engine of decks seems to be Dual Ball and Level Ball right now. Ultra Ball will certainly help in Darkrai and Dark Patch based decks, but I don't see the usefulness in Zekrom/Eels quite yet (I would need to test to confirm). After all, most of the good Zekrom/Eels don't even play Sage's Training, so I feel Level Ball will still be the superior choice.

dmaster out.
 
Ultra Ball has more flexibility. Searches for anything without fail, so you don't need to rely on Dual Ball. I would probably use 2 in my Eels.
 
dmaster said:
Actually most Zekrom/Eels have been running Dual Balls from what I've seen (so you're wrong on only two decks running it). Sure, there are Collector versions, but I've noticed that they are vastly inferior when going up against a Dual Ball version of the deck. This is simply because why would you waste a Supporter during this turn and not be able to get a needed attack off like the T1 Charge? It's just better when you're wanting to attack right out of the gate and decks in the Format can't afford to sit and wait even though Collector gets your Basics 100% of the time.
Also, ZekEels usually uses 1-2 Sage's but a quantity higher than that would be absurd.
Click to expand...

I disagree. In my area, the good players prefer Collector and are doing well. My ZekEels has collector and is very good, and many of my friend's Zekeels are the same. Collector is guaranteed- Dual ball not so much. Using a supporter T1 isnt bad. If you use a Pont/N T1, then you have 1 less Pont/N late game when you need it. With Collector, you either have collector or dual ball, so there isn't that much of a space difference.
 
The reason the ball engine is so good is the format is much faster now. You just don't have a turn to be wasting on collector as you need to get your pokemon out fast and then use a supporter like juniper/oak/n to get set up faster.
 
Nicor123 said:
i play typhlosion, should i change my Pokémon communications with ultra ball??
Click to expand...

I would keep 1 or 2 Communication and replace the others with Ultra Ball. There are times when you don't need a certain Pokemon in your hand.
 
ZekEels can get set up T3 maybe T2 if lucky, and MTC and ZPST are the only T1 decks (ZPST sometimes).
Click to expand...
Durant's also a possible T1; just want to throw that out there.

I disagree. In my area, the good players prefer Collector and are doing well. My ZekEels has collector and is very good, and many of my friend's Zekeels are the same. Collector is guaranteed- Dual ball not so much. Using a supporter T1 isnt bad. If you use a Pont/N T1, then you have 1 less Pont/N late game when you need it. With Collector, you either have collector or dual ball, so there isn't that much of a space difference.
Click to expand...
I'd like to point out that, although Collector is still seen in ZekEels, what is usually seen is 2 Collector and either 3 or 4 Dual Ball, to make absolutely sure you get a T1 basic. You run all of one and none of the other, however, and you tend to suffer, but I have noticed that the better ZekEels builds use Dual Ball more.

As far as after the rotation? I'm going to assume a BW-on rotation is what will hit us, but the only real changes between that and CoL-on rotation are Dual Ball and PONT.
Level Ball maxed out in ZekEels? I personally think Level Ball will be maxed out in EVERY deck, not just ZekEels, and Ultra Ball will always see at least 2 copies being played just because it works so well. PokeCom will be 3+ as always (and so will Dual Ball if it stays), and we might see Great Ball, but I doubt it. As for Poke Ball, no one's going to run it.

I'd like to see some sort of throwback to Roseanne's Research, or even one for Holon Mentor. That would be fun. (Why Holon Mentor over Collector? Collector can search out EX cards, and right now in this rotation it's overbearing. Holon Mentor is the same except with a 100 HP cap, so it's fair. I doubt the throwback will have the 'discard 1 card' cost to play it, but who can say?)
 
I think the ball engine will become even more dominant come next season. However, we have to see where they rotate to. If it's COL on, we can still use Dual ball and hence the format stays healthy. However, if it's BW on, we will need another basic searcher in the newest Japanese set to maintain the consistency of the game. If not, we'd have a much slower format with possible donk decks lurking about. Level ball and Ultra ball would become your main search engine as a result and it just doesn't seem sustainable.
 
RogueChomp said:
I disagree. In my area, the good players prefer Collector and are doing well. My ZekEels has collector and is very good, and many of my friend's Zekeels are the same. Collector is guaranteed- Dual ball not so much. Using a supporter T1 isnt bad. If you use a Pont/N T1, then you have 1 less Pont/N late game when you need it. With Collector, you either have collector or dual ball, so there isn't that much of a space difference.
Click to expand...

Adding on to DNA's point:

While you do have one more PONT/N/Draw Supporter when you play Collector, you also have more Collector that clog your deck! This makes Pokegear especially useless after you get N'd late in the game as you do not want to see a Collector or even worse, Gear/Random Receiver into a Collector. Dual Ball can be played quite expendable as you can fail a search and still have that draw Supporter. Furthermore, most of the time, getting those guaranteed Basics aren't even necessary! Sure you want a couple baby eels and another attacker but that's really all you need to get going and that isn't terribly hard. I will concede there are different playstyles and playing Collector is certainly not a bad one, but you have to also concede that the Dual Ball version is more widely played and the most successful in winning tournaments.

dmaster out.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top