Discussion Beedrill-EX as a Tech

[Lards Ulrich]

Just curious what people thought of the idea I had of teching in a Beedrill EX as a possible counter to Garbodor and his lovely ability lock. In the next rotation, there will be basically nothing short of lysandreing Garbodor out to get rid of him, except maybe Beedrill's first attack.
If you don't remember, it's for one colorless and allows to discard 2 tools from the opponent's side of the field. Could be decent though would also end up being another EX just sitting on the bench in the way. Just curious what others thought.

 

[Otaku]

Aye, this could become a real "thing". It seems inefficient given what we are used to... but we've had too strong of Tool removal for a while now. Arguably a few select cards necessitated it, but it really seems like the balance has never been right.

Pokémon Tools, as we know, are a subclass of Item. So unless their own specific effects make it otherwise, they are easy to run and play. Sort of, because unlike a regular Item you do have to have a Pokémon in play worth attaching said Pokémon Tool in the first place. This is why they can sometimes be dead or all but dead in hand. It has been a while since we had a format where we did not need to worry about Pokémon Tools being easily discarded or Item lock, but I don't remember running more than a half dozen Pokémon Tools as a general deck strategy (just for things like Tool Drop).

So what I am trying to say is Startling Megaphone was insane overkill; it only makes sense as a counter to Tool Drop decks and (once released) stuff like Entei (XY: Ancient Origins 15/98). Other counters were already available for the former while the obvious trick for the latter is to just not release it if we never have Startling Megaphone. Same goes if Pokémon Tools we have now are considered too strong; I'd rather they not release them than overly powerful counters. Even Tool Scrapper was too good; you trade one Item for two Items! Okay, caught myself before breaking out into a CaC, but the point is that it isn't the effects that are a problem but their cost to use. Playing with it I think we could get some counters for Tool reliant decks - and we need counters for all major strategies so long as they are properly priced - without going overboard. I mean am I the only one that thinks decks should have a heavier Tool focus because isn't that just typical for Pokémon? How often in the video games do you intentionally go into battle without your Pokémon holding something?

 

[PMJ]

The idea of attacking to remove Tools is fine, but I don't think we should be forced to run a mediocre Pokemon-EX to do it. I also wouldn't mind seeing Tool removal as an effect of a "good" Pokemon's attack, instead of something you tech in.

 

[crystal_pidgeot]

I don't like the idea of Beedrill EX as a tech for reasons. One is Beedrill is a 160 HP EX that can get easily OHKO and gives up 2 prize cards. Its the same reason I dont like Latias or Latios as a Defogger because do one thing as get knocked out. Its just a bad 'fix' because you have to waste resources to deal with a broken option.

With Pokemon, they seem to have this mindset of 'all or nothing at all'. Tool Scrapper was a good card but still too powerful and Startling Megaphone is just overkill. I never cared for 'all' effects because it ruins deck strategies. I would love to see a less powerful Windstorm come back to Pokemon like Yugioh's Mystical Space Typhoon where you can discard any trainer card in play. I would love to play 4 copies of such a card because it solves the issue but not in a way to where it breaks other deck concepts.

As for Beedrill itself, it would be MUCH better a card if it prevented damage and effects like Stardust did when discarding a energy. Beedrill would earn the spot but as it stands, we have to put it in the active spot and hope it can take a hit. Yeah its still a option but the option needs to be as effective as Garbodor. Garbodor can come into play and lock effects as soon as it gets a tool. It doesn't have to wait a turn to do it so the defending player needs a option that is just as quick.

Look at it this way, the Garbodor player is at a huge plus. They can;

Evolve into Garbodor
Attach the tool
Can attack your Pokemon

What you can do since you dont have abilities;

Play Beedrill (if you have it)
Put a energy on it
Attack and discard the tools and hope it sticks

What your opponent can do;

Attack another tool to Garbodor
Ko your beedrill (if they can)

This just isn't effective since if you want to use your abilities, you have to place yourself into a huge negative just do maybe gain access to your deck again and since it cost you your turn to do so, you get further behind when all your opponent has to do is attach a tool to lock you out again. So if my opponent can break my deck on there turn, then I should be able to break their lock on my turn.

 

[bbninjas]

I think Beedrill should be used more as a last resort as it is not overly reliable, and rather you should focus on other ways to counter, such as through Lysandre + KO.

 

[crystal_pidgeot]

I think Beedrill should be used more as a last resort as it is not overly reliable, and rather you should focus on other ways to counter, such as through Lysandre + KO.

Even still thats not a counter. A player shouldn't have to waste their turn to and supporter to do such a thing. Its not balanced.

 

[Lanstar]

Personally, I thought the items for tool removal were a little OP, but Xerosic was a wonderful tech for the game, and it was quite balanced. I want at least that supporter to come back in some form or another...

Beedrill as tech doesn't help much though: Since you're giving up a turn to discard the tools, the opponent can easily just reattach a tool to Garbodor on their turn, and your abilities are screwed once again, even before you'd be using them. The low HP for an EX makes it prone to knock outs, too.

Personally, I think if they just made an item that discarded a single Pokemon tool against your opponent and that's all, it would be balanced. Or better yet - an item that could chose 1 ability to disable from your opponents side for a turn or two...

 

[crystal_pidgeot]

Personally, I thought the items for tool removal were a little OP, but Xerosic was a wonderful tech for the game, and it was quite balanced. I want at least that supporter to come back in some form or another...

Beedrill as tech doesn't help much though: Since you're giving up a turn to discard the tools, the opponent can easily just reattach a tool to Garbodor on their turn, and your abilities are screwed once again, even before you'd be using them. The low HP for an EX makes it prone to knock outs, too.

Personally, I think if they just made an item that discarded a single Pokemon tool against your opponent and that's all, it would be balanced. Or better yet - an item that could chose 1 ability to disable from your opponents side for a turn or two...

I was thinking something like Mystical Space Typhoon that could discard any trainer in play but only one but I would like to see some unique trainer cards though.

 

[WastedSkyPirate]

So what I am trying to say is Startling Megaphone was insane overkill; it only makes sense as a counter to Tool Drop decks and (once released) stuff like Entei (XY: Ancient Origins 15/98). Other counters were already available for the former while the obvious trick for the latter is to just not release it if we never have Startling Megaphone. Same goes if Pokémon Tools we have now are considered too strong; I'd rather they not release them than overly powerful counters. Even Tool Scrapper was too good; you trade one Item for two Items!

I agree with @Lanstar in thinking that Xerosic is a well-balanced card.

Neither of the effects (removing a Tool or Special Energy) are overkill but the versatility is what makes it powerful. Keeping it in check though, is the fact it is a Supporter card and takes up your Supporter slot for the turn. I'd be happy for it to be reprinted.

As for Beedrill-EX; it strikes me as viable but unreliable for the reasons that @crystal_pidgeot gave. It's a Pokemon-EX, and therefore a prize liability, and it only has 160 HP. I don't think you'd be able to use its attack multiple times before your opponent simply Lysandres it up and KOs it.