Discussion Broken Cards...

[Draskk]

I don't usually comment on threads that have become flame wars, but here goes.

Kiawe is not worthy of a ban IMO. Gardevoir mows Ho Oh GX down as soon as it gets up (easy with Brigette) and you can't use Phoenix Burn twice in a row. You should be easily able to advance your board state and take advantage of the turns Phoenix Burn can't be used in order to come back late game. Kiawe is not dominating the meta, unlike the other cards that have been banned. It's simply a good card.

 

[crystal_pidgeot]

I don't usually comment on threads that have become flame wars, but here goes.

Kiawe is not worthy of a ban IMO. Gardevoir mows Ho Oh GX down as soon as it gets up (easy with Brigette) and you can't use Phoenix Burn twice in a row. You should be easily able to advance your board state and take advantage of the turns Phoenix Burn can't be used in order to come back late game. Kiawe is not dominating the meta, unlike the other cards that have been banned. It's simply a good card.

And if you don't want to play Gardevoir-GX?

 

[Draskk]

And if you don't want to play Gardevoir-GX?

Espeon Garbodor throws Ho-Oh for a loop. Lele can deal 2HKO damage to Ho-Oh for a DCE. Alolan Ninetales, Lapras, and BuluVolt have a 50/50 matchup with Ho-Oh.

 

[Otaku]

Why are there broken cards.
Forest of Giant PlantS
Lysandre Trump Card..
and the most recent.....wait for it...

BRIGETTE...seems like they needed to ban that card when GX's came out. Our league alone is clamoring for a Brigette. Why would putting ,say , 3 Drampas, or 3 Tauros , be ok. Bidding has gone for at least 7 to 8 dollars in our section of players.

Discuss.....and feedback.....and dealings ....GO.

There are multiple reasons for cards that are too strong for their own good (or the health and enjoyment of the game) exist. Before that, however, let me share some observations about broken cards in general:

1. All broken cards are not equal.
2. The specifics of the metagame can "hide" broken cards.
3. Hypothetically, almost any broken card can be made balanced.
4. Just because the player base accepts it does not mean it is well balanced.

I can unpack these if need be, but I'm not sure I really need to; if I do, let me know. The fourth one is important for the modern Pokémon TCG; the game is at a place now where cards that are at least a little too strong for the game's core mechanics to properly function are becoming common place, and we (the players) are just starting to accept them.

Anyway, of the three examples given:

• Forest of Giant Plants is an attempt at nerfing a past broken (or at least potent) card, Broken Time-Space. The same thinking that made them think the latter was a good idea probably resurfaced to bring us the former.
• Lysandre's Trump Card is the hardest to explain. The best answer is something I learned from a friend; this kind of effect supposedly isn't an issue in a game like Magic: The Gathering. Those who play that game and wish to weigh in, let me know; when I mentioned Lysandre's Trump Card being banned in passing (as he is not a Pokémon TCG player), then mentioned its effect, he found it hilarious. Another possible answer is that while ignoring they were re-releasing VS Seeker, they may have focused on Night March or other decks Lysandre's Trump Card was supposed to balance out. Plus, they just don't think much about mill as a win condition.
• Brigette is easy; they didn't think ahead when making it, so of course, it becomes unbalanced when they decide to make something like Pokémon-EX - which Brigette has restrictions about fetching - but with a new classification so said restriction doesn't matter.

 

[Xeynid]

I never said it was more broken than the cards Konami makes. I just said not ever Yu-Gi-Oh, the kings of making broken cards, would make such a card. Mostly because they can't.

Yes, Konami would never print a card that lets you search your deck for 4 energy cards. Thank you for that wonderfully insightful commentary.

Kiawe is limited by the fact that you need to run it in a fire deck, it's really hard to use past turn 1, and if you don't want to use it later in the game it's a dead draw that reduces your chance of having better cards.

Kiawe is only as overpowered as fire decks are. I guess you live in some alternate universe where Volc was all 8 of the top 8 decks at worlds, but in this universe, kiawe is fine.

 

[raw19]

I don't think Kiawe is broken. Currently. Right now the only pokemon that really benefit from it are Fire-types, due to them naturally having a large amount of fire-energy in their decks, having such huge attack costs, and having such high hp basics. Kiawe really is at its most useful in the first few turns where it's harder to immediately respond to. Any stage 1/stage 2 decks that might benefit from Kiawe run the risk of their powered-up basic being sniped and killed by a Lele with a DCE on the next turn and mid-to-late game your opponent should be set up enough that they have 1 or 2 ways to deal with such an acceleration.

Other Pokemon, like Drampa GX and Necrozma GX can benefit from Kiawe, but far less optimally. Necrozma has no reason to be set up turn 1, as its first attack is useless without Psychic energy and it's doubtful most opponents will have a large enough plethora of ex/gx in play to make Black Ray worthwhile. Nor would they be likely to commit many to the board until Necrozma was dealt with. Drampa i usually see paired with Zoroark and i don't see them putting too many different energy types in the one deck. Especially when Drampa is just fine with a single basic and a single DCE. Just a couple of examples, but most Pokemon have better options going for them i feel.

I feel that Kiawe has the potential to be broken in the future. If enough other basic pokemon with decent attack that require high amounts of fire/colorless energy get printed, then Kiawe can easily get out of hand depending on how instrumental said cards become to the metagame. At such a time we may indeed see people calling for a ban, but right now i think it's fine.

 

[crystal_pidgeot]

I don't think Kiawe is broken. Currently. Right now the only pokemon that really benefit from it are Fire-types, due to them naturally having a large amount of fire-energy in their decks, having such huge attack costs, and having such high hp basics. Kiawe really is at its most useful in the first few turns where it's harder to immediately respond to. Any stage 1/stage 2 decks that might benefit from Kiawe run the risk of their powered-up basic being sniped and killed by a Lele with a DCE on the next turn and mid-to-late game your opponent should be set up enough that they have 1 or 2 ways to deal with such an acceleration.

Other Pokemon, like Drampa GX and Necrozma GX can benefit from Kiawe, but far less optimally. Necrozma has no reason to be set up turn 1, as its first attack is useless without Psychic energy and it's doubtful most opponents will have a large enough plethora of ex/gx in play to make Black Ray worthwhile. Nor would they be likely to commit many to the board until Necrozma was dealt with. Drampa i usually see paired with Zoroark and i don't see them putting too many different energy types in the one deck. Especially when Drampa is just fine with a single basic and a single DCE. Just a couple of examples, but most Pokemon have better options going for them i feel.

I feel that Kiawe has the potential to be broken in the future. If enough other basic pokemon with decent attack that require high amounts of fire/colorless energy get printed, then Kiawe can easily get out of hand depending on how instrumental said cards become to the metagame. At such a time we may indeed see people calling for a ban, but right now i think it's fine.

I was very careful to not say "Fire-types" for this very reason. Any deck that has an attacker that used Colorless Energy can use it, which is a part of why I stay the card is broken. I also believe that a card that is broken has always been broken so if Kiawe ends up broken in the future, it means it always was broken because an effect that puts four Energy into play from the deck is just always powerful.

Every Colorless Pokemon can use it, which means they can't make any interesting designs with them for two years or ever since Expanded is a thing, which sucks because the Colorless type is the one type in need of a buff and some newer Pokemon like Gyarados-GX and Alolan Exeggutor-GX, and like you said in the future can be made broken because of Kiawe. I say the card is broken for a number of reasons and that's it gives the player going first too much advantage and it puts too much strain on card design and balance since a card like Kiawe is too hard to future proof especially when you're trying to sell new sets.

 

[Lanstar]

There are particular reasons why I don't think Kiawe isn't overly broken right now:

1. It is a supporter card. By using Kaiwe, you cannot use any other draw or search support during your turn. Thus you sacrifice developing your bench, your hand, or even disrupting your opponent for that matter.

2. It ends your turn immediately after its use. This part may not matter it you perform a turn 1 Kiawe, but remember that doing so means limiting your options to develop your field. It makes players ask: Should I try to add a bunch of energy to 1 Pokemon, or should I think about future plays and use Brigette/Lillie to start off?

3. This meta is very punishing to heavy energy attachment. Think about it: The big plays lately are Pokemon that use attacks based mainly on energy attached to opponent's Pokemon. Gardevior-GX, Lele-GX, and Espeon-GX, and Yveltal-EX are popular because they make players super cautious about leaving 3+ energy on a Pokemon during their turn. In fact, the discard recoil of cards like Alolan-Ninetales-GX, Solgaleo-GX, and Tortunator-GX are actually seen as more beneficial to players because it is a defensive tactic against this issue! Kiawe, however, forces players to leave lots of energy onto a single Pokemon during their opponent's turn - and that Pokemon more often than not will get struck down because of it.

No doubt though: Should there be a card to counteract energy variable moves, this card could prove spooky later on. But for now, the meta just doesn't want lots of energy attached to a single Pokemon at once.

 

[PMJ]

I haven't forgotten about you, please be patient and I'll try to get to you later today <3

 

[PMJ]

I've seen you respond hostilely to others or in a way I'd expect a mod to not act since you are more obligated to be professional than any other member here.

[citation needed]

Show me any example of me being outright hostile or rude to anyone besides you who didn't say or do anything to deserve said behavior.

You could have just asked me to explain myself, which I would have happily done but you not once, but twice preceded to attack me, which I don't play from anyone.

word.

Anyway, I or anyone else shouldn't have to ask you to explain yourself. If you hold an unpopular opinion, the best way to convince others of it is to state your case, not swoop in, say "Kiawe should be banned lol" and then dip out without saying anything. The difference here is you have a proven history of talking out your ass so I'm less willing to give you the benefit of the doubt.

I'd just Guzma up that Tapu Lele-GX and go up two Prize cards.

Sometimes, yeah. But you aren't going to always pull all this off. This is part of why Kiawe is not broken, just good.

You can still setup. The problem is it gives too much advantage to the player going first since attack is the best thing you can do in this game.

Depends on your opening hand. If it's full of bullshit and you go for the T1 Kiawe instead of trying to improve your board state, then you deserve to lose.

I've seen it happen many times. Before you're able to do anything, you're down one or two Prize cards since in most cases, at least two turns is needed to do anything meaningful and with things like Guzma, it gives too much advantage. Sure, not every game plays out the same way but it happens often enough to become reliable. The goal is to prevent such things from existing.

Obviously not, because Kiawe exists, lol. Going down 2 prizes is nothing. Just ask Greninja :] And soon we're getting Counter Catcher where dumb plays like that can be punished even further.


That's why the ban reason specifically stated that "no single strategy was powerful enough" right? That means that lock decks themselves weren't solely the problem - otherwise they would have just banned Vileplume instead of gutting the Grass archetype.

Banning FoGP means they can do interesting with the type and not risk breaking Expanded. Vileplume was broken because of FoGP. I would argue banning Trev for the same reason and that is it gives the player going first too much advantage.

If Vileplume was broken, then Vileplume should have been banned, not Forest. Are you even paying attention? They said that no single Forest-based strategy was busted enough to warrant banning Forest, but so many of them existing at the same time was enough to ban the card. No single strategy. That means that Vileplume decks by themselves aren't broken. Speed owl decks aren't broken. Deciplume decks are not broken. Not by themselves. Why would you ban something _else_ just to make another card usable?

Any my response will be the same. The card was always broken but got a pass because evolution as a mechanic wasn't used widely and now that it is, they have to at least act like they want it to be relevant so banning Archeops was needed. I would have much rather seen Archie's and Maxie's banned instead but it's whatever.

The card was always broken? Do you even believe the things you say? If a card was recently banned, that doesn't mean it was always busted. I explained this to you in the last thread. The fact that both Forest and Archeops stayed unbanned for years proves this. You're going to say that when NVI or whatever set came out that Archeops was in, it was immediately busted? Since day one? That's your argument. Do you realize how ridiculous you sound?

That you're able to deal with a 190 HP Pokemon that has four Energy and can deal 180+ damage during your first turn of play.

Probably won't happen during the first turn. Unless you're playing a Koko-GX deck, you're not going to kill the Ho-Oh, if that's what you're getting at. Of course, you trade using a Supporter like Brigette, Sycamore, or N for Kiawe on turn one, so you trade a strengthened board state for the thread of immediate firepower.

I don't know what you mean by this. Do you mean the player going second can play it or the deck running it can do it second?

I mean the person going second can also play Kiawe on their first turn for basically no penalty. If you're running Kiawe in your deck, you almost have to play it on your first turn regardless of whether or not you are going first because it's basically dead every other turn.

I mean, if I get a turn one Kiawe and can take a two Prize cards my next turn, then what do I care? I still have a 190 HP beat stick that can take another two Prize cards.

Then get N'd to 2 on turn 3, nice. Better hope you topdeck a way to take 2 more prizes or you might get set up on and overwhelmed.

I didn't say anything wrong. As a matter of fact, you really didn't say anything meaningful against my argument.

I'm rude to other people: false. Kiawe is broken. Hella false. The ban on Forest and Archeops had literally anything to do with going first: false. You know what you're talking about: false.

And if you don't want to play Gardevoir-GX?

No one is forcing you to play anything, but people who don't have this kind of scrub mentality will recognize that Fire decks are a viable threat and plan accordingly. If you find that Gardevoir has the best matchups against most of your meta and you still choose not to play it for whatever reason, that's on you. That is not to say that you are effectively being forced to play Gardevoir; but rather that you need to realize the opportunity cost of not doing so, and be prepared for those that did. If you're willing to accept a poor matchup then play whatever you want.

I was very careful to not say "Fire-types" for this very reason. Any deck that has an attacker that used Colorless Energy can use it, which is a part of why I stay the card is broken.

You are seriously overstating this perk. Yes, Colorless Pokemon can use it easily, but so what? Most Colorless Pokemon are bad, and the ones that aren't really don't give a shit about Kiawe because their decks have better things to do. The fact that you can attach to Colorless Pokemon just makes Kiawe better, not broken.

I also believe that a card that is broken has always been broken

This is why you should just stop posting. This is completely not factual and has never had any basis in reality.

so if Kiawe ends up broken in the future, it means it always was broken because an effect that puts four Energy into play from the deck is just always powerful.

It puts a specific type of Energy into play from the deck and ends your turn. This is a big deal because you can't just use it any time you want. It's news to absolutely no one that it's a good turn one play, do you think that PCL is stupid or that they don't test this stuff out beforehand? Actually, don't answer that, you probably have a really dumb answer and reading it is going to give me an aneurysm.

Every Colorless Pokemon can use it, which means they can't make any interesting designs with them for two years or ever since Expanded is a thing, which sucks because the Colorless type is the one type in need of a buff and some newer Pokemon like Gyarados-GX and Alolan Exeggutor-GX, and like you said in the future can be made broken because of Kiawe.

Most Basic Colorless Pokemon don't take four Energy to attack, and the ones that do are shit. There are some evolved guys that can utilize it, but if you wanna shove four Energy on a Whismur or a Teddiursa, be my guest bro. The fact that you think that Gyarados-GX and AE-GX should seriously be played with Kiawe speaks volumes about how much people should take what you say seriously (that is to say, not at all). In what timeline is it a good idea for you to fill your Gyarados deck with Fire Energy just to meme with Kiawe? Cause it sure as shit ain't this one.

I say the card is broken for a number of reasons and that's it gives the player going first too much advantage and it puts too much strain on card design and balance since a card like Kiawe is too hard to future proof especially when you're trying to sell new sets.

This is basically a non-issue now that evolved Pokemon-GX are a thing. And you can bet that PCL is going to take Kiawe into consideration when designing future basic Colorless or Fire Pokemon-GX. That's not strain, that's just good design.
Kiawe is only somewhat reliable when used on two things:
1. Basic Colorless Pokemon
2. Basic Fire Pokemon
And only on your first turn. It gets much less appealing any time you have to actually sacrifice an attack to attach Energy.
Kiawe is good and perfectly limited the way it is. It is not broken and will n e v e r be banned.

Sorry this took so long, I've been very busy. <3

 

[crystal_pidgeot]

[citation needed]

Show me any example of me being outright hostile or rude to anyone besides you who didn't say or do anything to deserve said behavior.

I don't necessarily care to look any of that up.

Anyway, I or anyone else shouldn't have to ask you to explain yourself. If you hold an unpopular opinion, the best way to convince others of it is to state your case, not swoop in, say "Kiawe should be banned lol" and then dip out without saying anything. The difference here is you have a proven history of talking out your ass so I'm less willing to give you the benefit of the doubt.

I could have given a wall of text but I knew you'd have a problem with it so I "posted and dipped" like you said but I see that didn't help anyway and you just have something against me when I say anything. How about you roast the guy who thinks Brigette is broken.

Sometimes, yeah. But you aren't going to always pull all this off. This is part of why Kiawe is not broken, just good.

This can always be pulled off but if we are just going to sit here and play the sometimes game, sometimes the opponent can't stop it.

Depends on your opening hand. If it's full of bullshit and you go for the T1 Kiawe instead of trying to improve your board state, then you deserve to lose.

Why are we talking about losing? Where did that even come from? If your hand is dead, then you have nothing anyway. Might as well get four Energy down.

Obviously not, because Kiawe exists, lol. Going down 2 prizes is nothing. Just ask Greninja :] And soon we're getting Counter Catcher where dumb plays like that can be punished even further.

Again, what does Counter Catcher does when on your first turn, you're already down two Prize cards with a huge body in the active spot with four Energy?

That's why the ban reason specifically stated that "no single strategy was powerful enough" right? That means that lock decks themselves weren't solely the problem - otherwise they would have just banned Vileplume instead of gutting the Grass archetype.

Vileplume wasn't the problem. It's a good card but not broken. FoGP was the problem and was broken. FoGP let Vileplume come down in a single turn and with all the speed cards they ran, the player going first had a huge advantage, which has been my argument from the start. I don't think I need to sit here and explain to you the reason FoGP is so unbalance. This has nothing to do with gutting the Grass type either. Vileplume decks aren't supposed to run more items than other decks. They are supposed to run very few Item cards and take a while to get Vileplume out.

The reason FoGP needed to be banned was so they can do interesting things with the Grass-type, otherwise they risk breaking it so rather than making a bunch of sub-par Grass Pokemon, they just ban the problem at the source. This is why Kiawe is a problem because they can't do anything interesting with the Fire-type. I happen to want a good Moltres-GX, which might not happen because of Kiawe and if it is good, then Kiawe breaks it.

If Vileplume was broken, then Vileplume should have been banned, not Forest. Are you even paying attention? They said that no single Forest-based strategy was busted enough to warrant banning Forest, but so many of them existing at the same time was enough to ban the card. No single strategy. That means that Vileplume decks by themselves aren't broken. Speed owl decks aren't broken. Deciplume decks are not broken. Not by themselves. Why would you ban something _else_ just to make another card usable?

No one thinks Vileplume is broken. I have no idea why you keep going on about this. Forest of Giant Plants is broken because you never know how it will interact with future cards and with the Expanded format being as large as it is, the cards existence can cause balance problems. Being able to get down three Decidueye-GX in one turn (something I was able to do) is broken. Being able to put down any Evolved Pokemon the turn the Basic was put down is broken. There is a reason that mechanic is in place and FoGP removes that barrier for one type. You ban FoGP and you don't have to worry about unintended card interactions and future balance of the type.

The card was always broken? Do you even believe the things you say? If a card was recently banned, that doesn't mean it was always busted. I explained this to you in the last thread. The fact that both Forest and Archeops stayed unbanned for years proves this. You're going to say that when NVI or whatever set came out that Archeops was in, it was immediately busted? Since day one? That's your argument. Do you realize how ridiculous you sound?

The fact they stayed legal means nothing. You can build on a roach nest not knowing it was ever there until you disturb it and when you do, you have to deal with it. The problem was always there but didn't surface until players sat down and did some thinking. Archeops isn't broken and can only be put into play via a very harsh fossil mechanic, something a 1-1 line isn't going to cut. The card was buffed by the existence Maxie's Hidden Ball Trick, which was the problem. Maxie is the broken card and in my opinion, they banned the wrong card but if they both were banned, I would have no problem with it. I also want Archie's Ace in the Hole banned for the same reason as FoGP.

Probably won't happen during the first turn. Unless you're playing a Koko-GX deck, you're not going to kill the Ho-Oh, if that's what you're getting at. Of course, you trade using a Supporter like Brigette, Sycamore, or N for Kiawe on turn one, so you trade a strengthened board state for the thread of immediate firepower.

This all depends on the deck build. A deck using Kiawe wants to use it on the first turn but this is no different than playing a Tapu Lele-GX and having to choose between Brigette and a N/Sycamore because of your Supporter-less hand.

I mean the person going second can also play Kiawe on their first turn for basically no penalty. If you're running Kiawe in your deck, you almost have to play it on your first turn regardless of whether or not you are going first because it's basically dead every other turn.

Yes, they can but they are at a huge disadvantage because a Choice Band and Guzma can KO whatever they put the Energy on.

Then get N'd to 2 on turn 3, nice. Better hope you topdeck a way to take 2 more prizes or you might get set up on and overwhelmed.

Play a N, that not a better Supporter you're playing and I still have a 180+ damage beat stick, of course assuming I didn't draw anything of the N. Also, why assume the opponent will get set up? Can I assume I drew a Sycamore of my N to two cards?

I'm rude to other people: false. Kiawe is broken. Hella false. The ban on Forest and Archeops had literally anything to do with going first: false. You know what you're talking about: false.

It doesn't matter about who went first for Maxie. The player who went first playing Decidueye/Vileplume is infinitely favored in a game because they can prevent the opponent from doing anything. No one player in the world wants to go second playing against Decidueye/Vileplume.

No one is forcing you to play anything, but people who don't have this kind of scrub mentality will recognize that Fire decks are a viable threat and plan accordingly. If you find that Gardevoir has the best matchups against most of your meta and you still choose not to play it for whatever reason, that's on you. That is not to say that you are effectively being forced to play Gardevoir; but rather that you need to realize the opportunity cost of not doing so, and be prepared for those that did. If you're willing to accept a poor matchup then play whatever you want.

No one is forcing me to play anything. The point is to never make a silver bullet to be a silver bullet or you create a meta where you need to make silver bullets to beat silver bullets, which doesn't fix the problem because you break something else. Being forced to play a deck or realizing you have to play it is the same thing to me. It's just word play at this point.

You are seriously overstating this perk. Yes, Colorless Pokemon can use it easily, but so what? Most Colorless Pokemon are bad, and the ones that aren't really don't give a shit about Kiawe because their decks have better things to do. The fact that you can attach to Colorless Pokemon just makes Kiawe better, not broken.

Most Colorless Pokemon are bad because they have to balance them for every other type. The isn't even about Colorless Pokemon but those with a large amount of Colorless cost, which includes every type. Kiawe will be in the game for another two years. That is two years worth of sets that can interact with that card.

This is why you should just stop posting. This is completely not factual and has never had any basis in reality.

This is why you don't get to decide whether or not I can post. I mean, you can always ban me. That will shut me up for true.

It puts a specific type of Energy into play from the deck and ends your turn. This is a big deal because you can't just use it any time you want. It's news to absolutely no one that it's a good turn one play, do you think that PCL is stupid or that they don't test this stuff out beforehand? Actually, don't answer that, you probably have a really dumb answer and reading it is going to give me an aneurysm.

Colorless cost doesn't care what you use to power it. Snorlax-GX like Kiawe, because he can sit on something next turn. Actually yes, I don't think PCL test their cards, other wish Lysandre's Trump Card wouldn't have been printed. Vileplume and FoGP wouldn't have been and the same set and a card that is hard to future proof like Kiawe wouldn't have been printed.

Most Basic Colorless Pokemon don't take four Energy to attack, and the ones that do are shit. There are some evolved guys that can utilize it, but if you wanna shove four Energy on a Whismur or a Teddiursa, be my guest bro. The fact that you think that Gyarados-GX and AE-GX should seriously be played with Kiawe speaks volumes about how much people should take what you say seriously (that is to say, not at all). In what timeline is it a good idea for you to fill your Gyarados deck with Fire Energy just to meme with Kiawe? Cause it sure as shit ain't this one.

Most Pokemon in their type is bad. Not every Colorless-type has to be playable. You just always need one example from any type to case some kind of buzz. Gyarados-GX needs only one Water Energy to attack. A.E.-GX only needs one Grass Energy to attack. They don't card what else you fill them with. Remember Turbo Dark and how DDE/Rainbow Energy was used to get that extra damage? I guess you need someone to win a Regionals with it before you open your eyes to it but I'm not such player.

This is basically a non-issue now that evolved Pokemon-GX are a thing. And you can bet that PCL is going to take Kiawe into consideration when designing future basic Colorless or Fire Pokemon-GX. That's not strain, that's just good design.

Good design is not not print a card like Kiawe. The problem isn't the Colorless- or Fire-type, it's anything with large Colorless cost for their attacks. This also include most Dragon-type Pokemon going forward. I would hate to see a Moltres-GX with a five Energy attack that discards all Energy because of Kiawe.

Kiawe is only somewhat reliable when used on two things:
1. Basic Colorless Pokemon
2. Basic Fire Pokemon
And only on your first turn. It gets much less appealing any time you have to actually sacrifice an attack to attach Energy.
Kiawe is good and perfectly limited the way it is. It is not broken and will n e v e r be banned.

You don't always need to attack. Do you have any idea how good it is to use two turns getting two Ho-Oh-GX up? You don't have to attack with it. Anything with large Colorless cost will be much better off with the card. Even playing it when you can do anything is super good. It's not a power at this point but still puts on a lot of pressure. I know the card won't be banned, since it's new and a full art of it exist but it doesn't mean this card isn't broken. I've made my case for why it is.

Also, is it okay to swear or something now? Did a rule chance I'm not aware of because I'd love to cuss people out

 

[Mega Mewtwo]

I've been saying this since sun and moon. They should errata to non gx as well

 

[Mega Mewtwo]

I really do question your position as staff with how you talk to other people. I wouldn't have you on staff with how aggressive you are to people but since you yourself stated that you're a bad player in this game, I'll do my best to explain this to you as a game designer.

This game give a HUGE advantage to the player going first. They get the first Supporter, the first attachment for Energy, the first player who can evolve their Pokemon - Everything but attack on the first turn. Kiawe gives the player going first a five Energy turn, or up to five anyway. Sure you have to end your turn afterwards but this doesn't matter because you, as the player going first can't attack. This comes with no consequence to the player going first. Giving the player going first a that can put four energy on the board, with many good attackers to support with is too much advantage to the point the player going second can't respond with since this puts them down two Prizes cards before they can even do anything meaningful. This places too much pressure on the player going second who can't respond to it.

As a game designer, these kind of things need to be avoided because it gives too much advantage. MtG would never make a card like this. Yu-Gi-Oh, the kings of making broken cards would never make a card like this and for good reason. If you happen to go second against a deck using Kiawe and they manage to get four Energy on a Ho-Oh-GX, you have a unrealistically high chance of losing the best of two because you lost the coin flip. This is the reason they banned Forest of Giant Plants from Expanded, because it gives too much advantage to the player going first and with lock decks being everywhere, the ban was needed. It's why they banned Archeops, because it gives too much advantage to the player running it.

The game already demands too much of the player going second and giving the player going first a cards that can powerful a four Energy attackers breaks any kind of balance they could make with the type.

No point in explaining yourself to that guy. He's about as smart as an ironing board. I agree with u kiawe is broken which is why 1 run 4 of them and 4 lele and 4 ho oh lol. It's too good going 1st.

 

[PMJ]

I don't necessarily care to look any of that up.

Guess it didn't happen then. You shouldn't accuse people of things without proof.

I could have given a wall of text but I knew you'd have a problem with it so I "posted and dipped" like you said but I see that didn't help anyway and you just have something against me when I say anything. How about you roast the guy who thinks Brigette is broken.

1. A wall of text would be preferable; it would have saved me a post and I could have gone straight into tearing apart your reasoning.
2. I only have a problem with the things you post because you post silly things.
3. I don't have a frame of reference for the guy who thinks Brigette is broken. Is he new? Is he young? These are important questions. You are neither of these, so you get roasted more easily

This can always be pulled off but if we are just going to sit here and play the sometimes game, sometimes the opponent can't stop it.

And sometimes they can, which is kinda the whole point. Every strategy will succeed sometimes; Kiawe strats are no different.

Why are we talking about losing? Where did that even come from? If your hand is dead, then you have nothing anyway. Might as well get four Energy down.

tbh I don't know, I wrote that post when I was dead tired. I notice I made a couple typos and left a previous quote there. Anyway the point I was pretty sure I was trying to stumble through is that if your hand is not dead and you opt for Kiawe as opposed to a safer play then you are running the risk of being overwhelmed. Again, sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. If it always won you the game no matter what, then you'd have a stronger case. But since Fire isn't bdif, I guess (as usual) you've got nothing.

Again, what does Counter Catcher does when on your first turn, you're already down two Prize cards with a huge body in the active spot with four Energy?

Nothing useful, I'll concede. Dunno where I was going with that line of reasoning

Vileplume wasn't the problem. It's a good card but not broken. FoGP was the problem and was broken. FoGP let Vileplume come down in a single turn and with all the speed cards they ran, the player going first had a huge advantage, which has been my argument from the start. I don't think I need to sit here and explain to you the reason FoGP is so unbalance. This has nothing to do with gutting the Grass type either. Vileplume decks aren't supposed to run more items than other decks. They are supposed to run very few Item cards and take a while to get Vileplume out.

"Supposed to" according to your own metrics, which don't mean anything to anyone except you. How do you know Vileplume decks aren't "supposed to" use up most of their many Items in the first few turns, then play the rest out with the Supporters they have left? Running a low Item count kills your consistency because you're limiting yourself to, essentially, one card per turn (not including evolving). Every deck needs items, and Vileplume was no different.

The reason FoGP needed to be banned was so they can do interesting things with the Grass-type, otherwise they risk breaking it so rather than making a bunch of sub-par Grass Pokemon, they just ban the problem at the source. This is why Kiawe is a problem because they can't do anything interesting with the Fire-type. I happen to want a good Moltres-GX, which might not happen because of Kiawe and if it is good, then Kiawe breaks it.

What do you define as interesting? There have been a lot of "interesting" Grass Pokemon and none of them saw the light of day, like Vivillon BKT (coin flip energy attachment from your deck), Meganium BKP (Do 120, heal 120, when near death), Shiftry STS (stopped Stadiums and Tools (Spirit Links) for a turn), Jumpluff STS (T1 120 for 1). Forest didn't break any of them. Interesting doesn't have to mean competitive.

No one thinks Vileplume is broken. I have no idea why you keep going on about this. Forest of Giant Plants is broken because you never know how it will interact with future cards and with the Expanded format being as large as it is, the cards existence can cause balance problems. Being able to get down three Decidueye-GX in one turn (something I was able to do) is broken. Being able to put down any Evolved Pokemon the turn the Basic was put down is broken. There is a reason that mechanic is in place and FoGP removes that barrier for one type. You ban FoGP and you don't have to worry about unintended card interactions and future balance of the type.

I'll say that I think getting three owls down t1 now is a bigger deal than it was previously. Starter Pokemon are weaker and more easily donked now.

You mentioned lock decks being everywhere. That's just one Forest-based strategy that contributed to its ban and you're acting like it's the only reason (only now mentioning Decidueye).

The fact they stayed legal means nothing. You can build on a roach nest not knowing it was ever there until you disturb it and when you do, you have to deal with it. The problem was always there but didn't surface until players sat down and did some thinking. Archeops isn't broken and can only be put into play via a very harsh fossil mechanic, something a 1-1 line isn't going to cut. The card was buffed by the existence Maxie's Hidden Ball Trick, which was the problem. Maxie is the broken card and in my opinion, they banned the wrong card but if they both were banned, I would have no problem with it. I also want Archie's Ace in the Hole banned for the same reason as FoGP.

The fact that they stayed legal means they weren't enough of a problem to ban. I don't know why this is so difficult for you to understand. Using your shitty analogy, every card in existence is a roach nest just waiting to be disturbed with the release of a new card or set. Or maybe players just haven't sat down and thought about it enough (lol).

Banning Archeops was the correct play. Instead of preventing players from using it on any other Pokemon in the game, they just took out the one that was causing the most problems. This is not quite the same as the Forest ban; banning Forest would be akin to banning Maxie.

This all depends on the deck build. A deck using Kiawe wants to use it on the first turn but this is no different than playing a Tapu Lele-GX and having to choose between Brigette and a N/Sycamore because of your Supporter-less hand.

In that case you should change your hand with N/Sycamore every time unless you want to blow your first turn with nothing on your board. This is the risk involved with using Kiawe. The reward is your beat stick with four Energy that you better hope carries you through the game. It's good, not broken.

Yes, they can but they are at a huge disadvantage because a Choice Band and Guzma can KO whatever they put the Energy on.

Obviously, but I didn't mean in the mirror; I meant going second, using Fire, against any other deck.

Play a N, that not a better Supporter you're playing and I still have a 180+ damage beat stick, of course assuming I didn't draw anything of the N. Also, why assume the opponent will get set up? Can I assume I drew a Sycamore of my N to two cards?

Well I specifically said "better hope you topdeck a way to take 2 more prizes" so sure.

They might get set up and they might not.

It doesn't matter about who went first for Maxie. The player who went first playing Decidueye/Vileplume is infinitely favored in a game because they can prevent the opponent from doing anything. No one player in the world wants to go second playing against Decidueye/Vileplume.

You shouldn't want to go second against any deck.

No one is forcing me to play anything. The point is to never make a silver bullet to be a silver bullet or you create a meta where you need to make silver bullets to beat silver bullets, which doesn't fix the problem because you break something else.

That's not the case here. Kiawe and Gardevoir are from the same set.

Being forced to play a deck or realizing you have to play it is the same thing to me. It's just word play at this point.

The only time players were anywhere near forced to play a certain deck was just before the emergency rotation. Everything else, as I said, is opportunity cost. If you're not going to play one of the best, most consistent decks in the format, then you have to be prepared to face players who are and know what your game plan is for when (not if) you find yourself across the table from it. That's all there is to it. For every person playing Gardevoir there's probably three or four people who aren't, and I'd wager at least two of those people are not playing it by choice. Not playing a deck because it has a poor matchup with the current most popular deck isn't stifling creativity or whatever, it's smart.

Most Colorless Pokemon are bad because they have to balance them for every other type. The isn't even about Colorless Pokemon but those with a large amount of Colorless cost, which includes every type. Kiawe will be in the game for another two years. That is two years worth of sets that can interact with that card.

Okay but those Pokemon are all colossally bad. Who cares if you power them up? The only time you should ever be paying five Energy to attack (excluding attacks that do more damage based on your energy) is if you're about to announce Dragon Ascent.

Alolan Exeggutor-GX is neat in theory because his first attack snipes based on your Energy count, but again this means you're either throwing four Energy onto an Exeggcute or sacrificing one of your attacking turns to do it for mediocre payoff. No serious player is going to do this though because they aren't idiots.

This is why you don't get to decide whether or not I can post. I mean, you can always ban me. That will shut me up for true.

It was a suggestion, broseph. I never said I had any say in it. Even if I did have the power to ban you, posting bad arguments is not a bannable offense.

Colorless cost doesn't care what you use to power it. Snorlax-GX like Kiawe, because he can sit on something next turn. Actually yes, I don't think PCL test their cards, other wish Lysandre's Trump Card wouldn't have been printed. Vileplume and FoGP wouldn't have been and the same set and a card that is hard to future proof like Kiawe wouldn't have been printed.

Snorlax-GX is completely outclassed by Ho-Oh-GX, so enjoy using your Z-tier deck.

Most Pokemon in their type is bad. Not every Colorless-type has to be playable. You just always need one example from any type to case some kind of buzz. Gyarados-GX needs only one Water Energy to attack. A.E.-GX only needs one Grass Energy to attack. They don't card what else you fill them with. Remember Turbo Dark and how DDE/Rainbow Energy was used to get that extra damage? I guess you need someone to win a Regionals with it before you open your eyes to it but I'm not such player.

You're really gonna go all in on this meme? Okay.

Both of these decks are kept in check by spread decks specifically, Espeon-EX, who has already been checking evolution decks anyway. It's even easier because both of these guys are Stage 1 Pokemon-GX which means you don't even get something like Metang to help keep you alive. Exeggcute has 50 life and Magikarp has a whopping 30. It's not going to be hard to wipe your board clean. Even if you tech in Mr. Mime, a single hit is all it takes to open you up for a devolution KO next turn and now you're out five Energy that you can't Aqua Patch back (in Gyarados's case) because instead of trying to build a consistent deck, you built a meme.

Someone winning a regs would cause me to respect the deck, but I guarantee you 100% no one good is going to use Kiawe in these decks.

Good design is not not print a card like Kiawe. The problem isn't the Colorless- or Fire-type, it's anything with large Colorless cost for their attacks. This also include most Dragon-type Pokemon going forward. I would hate to see a Moltres-GX with a five Energy attack that discards all Energy because of Kiawe.

Nothing with a large Colorless requirement is even remotely good, even with Kiawe.

re your wishmon: You won't, because PCL aren't idiots. Ho-Oh and Kiawe are in the same set, so any other basic Fire Pokemon-GX we get will be as good or worse. A five-Energy attack that discards all sounds like a GX attack. Even if it wasn't, you would likely only be able to do it once anyway; good luck getting ten Energy on a single target over the course of a game.

You don't always need to attack. Do you have any idea how good it is to use two turns getting two Ho-Oh-GX up? You don't have to attack with it. Anything with large Colorless cost will be much better off with the card. Even playing it when you can do anything is super good. It's not a power at this point but still puts on a lot of pressure. I know the card won't be banned, since it's new and a full art of it exist but it doesn't mean this card isn't broken. I've made my case for why it is.

Also, is it okay to swear or something now? Did a rule chance I'm not aware of because I'd love to cuss people out

If using Kiawe on a turn other than one is ever an appealing option then you are probably getting your ass kicked and I'm not sure how much it'll help. It puts on pressure, yes. That's the whole point of the card.

You have been able to curse (basically anything but the "f word") for a long time. Some of the older filters were removed thanks to me, and no, that's not a joke. You're welcome

 

[dweebyartpunker]

I think if Pokémon hasn't already banned the card, it's safe to say Brigette isn't that broken. The GX pokemon can be intimidating but i'll take 2 prizes, thnx.

 

[crystal_pidgeot]

Guess it didn't happen then. You shouldn't accuse people of things without proof.

Don't caring to find something isn't the same as saying it doesn't exist but that's not what I want to get into.

1. A wall of text would be preferable; it would have saved me a post and I could have gone straight into tearing apart your reasoning.
2. I only have a problem with the things you post because you post silly things.
3. I don't have a frame of reference for the guy who thinks Brigette is broken. Is he new? Is he young? These are important questions. You are neither of these, so you get roasted more easily

I supposed I could have taken the @Otaku and given a huge wall of text but I really didn't want to do that but I suppose I could have said something to explain why but since I play other card game, the statement alone and knowledge of the card would have been enough. Show Kiawe to any MtG player and you'll see what I mean. I also don't post silly things all the time and sure, I accept number three.

And sometimes they can, which is kinda the whole point. Every strategy will succeed sometimes; Kiawe strats are no different.

I agree but nothing this powerful should be available to players. When designing cards, you need to ask yourself a few things;

1. Does it break a mechanic?
2. Is it possible to easily respond to it?
3. Does it give too much advantage?
4. Is it future proof?

If your answer to those are yes, no, yes/maybe, maybe, they you did something wrong.

tbh I don't know, I wrote that post when I was dead tired. I notice I made a couple typos and left a previous quote there. Anyway the point I was pretty sure I was trying to stumble through is that if your hand is not dead and you opt for Kiawe as opposed to a safer play then you are running the risk of being overwhelmed. Again, sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. If it always won you the game no matter what, then you'd have a stronger case. But since Fire isn't bdif, I guess (as usual) you've got nothing.

This is my point though, the player going first who can get a Kiawe off is in a much better position to win a best of three series, since they are able to do things while you still setup. It's just like the Vileplume player going first in a best of three. They will more than likely win the series because they had the advantage of going first. Fire isn't bdif, I think that belongs to Gardevoir-GX but my argument isn't for fire, but decks that can use the card effectively.

"Supposed to" according to your own metrics, which don't mean anything to anyone except you. How do you know Vileplume decks aren't "supposed to" use up most of their many Items in the first few turns, then play the rest out with the Supporters they have left? Running a low Item count kills your consistency because you're limiting yourself to, essentially, one card per turn (not including evolving). Every deck needs items, and Vileplume was no different.

Mechanics. Do you remember a deck called The Truth? That is how Vileplume is supposed to be played. Every card has a mechanic.

What do you define as interesting? There have been a lot of "interesting" Grass Pokemon and none of them saw the light of day, like Vivillon BKT (coin flip energy attachment from your deck), Meganium BKP (Do 120, heal 120, when near death), Shiftry STS (stopped Stadiums and Tools (Spirit Links) for a turn), Jumpluff STS (T1 120 for 1). Forest didn't break any of them. Interesting doesn't have to mean competitive.

Decidueye-GX is a interesting card, which is made broken by FoGP. When I say interesting, I'm saying "do something cool with". Moltres-GX could have a damage scaling attack for Energy attached to it and because Kiawe exist, they might choose to do something else with it. Maybe they wanted to make a Grass-type have a cool Ability but choose not to because FoGP existed. Banning FoGP means they can do cool things with the type without breaking it. You're right, interesting doesn't have to mean competitive, but I was never talking about competitive play, I'm talking about game design.

I'll say that I think getting three owls down t1 now is a bigger deal than it was previously. Starter Pokemon are weaker and more easily donked now.

This is true but can you imagine getting three into play with forest? You could donk whatever you wanted if you went first.

You mentioned lock decks being everywhere. That's just one Forest-based strategy that contributed to its ban and you're acting like it's the only reason (only now mentioning Decidueye).

It was a reason. There are other reasons I could speculate, like Vespiquen being too powerful with Revitalizer being around. You could never punish your opponent. In Vileplume, they could speed through their deck, discarding whatever they wanted but as long as they had Revitalizer, they could get back Vileplume and going first means they could do this and lock you out of the game before you saw a single card. The card offered too many interaction for the Grass-type, both intended (Vileplume) and unintended (Decidueye-GX).

The fact that they stayed legal means they weren't enough of a problem to ban. I don't know why this is so difficult for you to understand. Using your shitty analogy, every card in existence is a roach nest just waiting to be disturbed with the release of a new card or set. Or maybe players just haven't sat down and thought about it enough (lol).

This doesn't mean the card wasn't broken though. Many things can stay legal. Most of the time they fly under the radar. Greedy dice is a broken card because of what it can do, which is flying under the radar but with the card pool growing, something could "disturb" it.

Banning Archeops was the correct play. Instead of preventing players from using it on any other Pokemon in the game, they just took out the one that was causing the most problems. This is not quite the same as the Forest ban; banning Forest would be akin to banning Maxie.

Yes, banning Archeops was the right thing to do but it just a Red Herring. The true problem was its interaction with Maxie. Maxie and Archie should be banned because they could break three types in the game.

In that case you should change your hand with N/Sycamore every time unless you want to blow your first turn with nothing on your board. This is the risk involved with using Kiawe. The reward is your beat stick with four Energy that you better hope carries you through the game. It's good, not broken.

There is risk in everything, sure but this doesn't mean it's not broken. Giving the player going first four of a resource for free will always be broken.

Obviously, but I didn't mean in the mirror; I meant going second, using Fire, against any other deck.

Setup is something to consider as well. Did player going first do anything meaningful? There was a time where there were at least a few turns of setup before kills were taken.

That's not the case here. Kiawe and Gardevoir are from the same set.

So were FoGP and Vileplume.

The only time players were anywhere near forced to play a certain deck was just before the emergency rotation. Everything else, as I said, is opportunity cost. If you're not going to play one of the best, most consistent decks in the format, then you have to be prepared to face players who are and know what your game plan is for when (not if) you find yourself across the table from it. That's all there is to it. For every person playing Gardevoir there's probably three or four people who aren't, and I'd wager at least two of those people are not playing it by choice. Not playing a deck because it has a poor matchup with the current most popular deck isn't stifling creativity or whatever, it's smart.

This is my meta right now, You either play Gardevoir-GX, Volcanion-EX or Metagross-GX. Pick your poison.

Okay but those Pokemon are all colossally bad. Who cares if you power them up? The only time you should ever be paying five Energy to attack (excluding attacks that do more damage based on your energy) is if you're about to announce Dragon Ascent.

Saying something is bad means nothing because these Pokemon are valid users of Kiawe.

Alolan Exeggutor-GX is neat in theory because his first attack snipes based on your Energy count, but again this means you're either throwing four Energy onto an Exeggcute or sacrificing one of your attacking turns to do it for mediocre payoff. No serious player is going to do this though because they aren't idiots.

Well, to be honest, I'd seen some serious players do things I've questioned. Sometimes it pays off too.

It was a suggestion, broseph. I never said I had any say in it. Even if I did have the power to ban you, posting bad arguments is not a bannable offense.

Well, it's nice to hear you say that because I know people who would.

Snorlax-GX is completely outclassed by Ho-Oh-GX, so enjoy using your Z-tier deck.

I take simple joy in things like the mental image of a Snorlax sitting on something and killing it. That's really all the reason I need. It's also the reason I feel every deck should have a Oricorio in it because every deck needs a cheerleader in it.

You're really gonna go all in on this meme? Okay.

Both of these decks are kept in check by spread decks specifically, Espeon-EX, who has already been checking evolution decks anyway. It's even easier because both of these guys are Stage 1 Pokemon-GX which means you don't even get something like Metang to help keep you alive. Exeggcute has 50 life and Magikarp has a whopping 30. It's not going to be hard to wipe your board clean. Even if you tech in Mr. Mime, a single hit is all it takes to open you up for a devolution KO next turn and now you're out five Energy that you can't Aqua Patch back (in Gyarados's case) because instead of trying to build a consistent deck, you built a meme.

Yeah, this is true but like I said above, they are valid users of Kiawe.

Someone winning a regs would cause me to respect the deck, but I guarantee you 100% no one good is going to use Kiawe in these decks.

Or no one good enough can use Kiawe.

Nothing with a large Colorless requirement is even remotely good, even with Kiawe.

We don't know this, which is a problem with Kiawe existing.

re your wishmon: You won't, because PCL aren't idiots. Ho-Oh and Kiawe are in the same set, so any other basic Fire Pokemon-GX we get will be as good or worse. A five-Energy attack that discards all sounds like a GX attack. Even if it wasn't, you would likely only be able to do it once anyway; good luck getting ten Energy on a single target over the course of a game.

My point is it would be hard to do anything interesting with the type because of Kiawe. I could break Camerupt with this card. I might actually do it too.

If using Kiawe on a turn other than one is ever an appealing option then you are probably getting your ass kicked and I'm not sure how much it'll help. It puts on pressure, yes. That's the whole point of the card.

Well, that isn't the only time. Maybe they put something back on the Bench and you can move it. Now you have another turn to Kiawe. Maybe you just want to be that guy and Kiawe again.

You have been able to curse (basically anything but the "f word") for a long time. Some of the older filters were removed thanks to me, and no, that's not a joke. You're welcome

Sweet, I'll be sure to keep that in mind and thank you very much.

 

[CrownAxe]

@crystal_pidgeot

Yes we get that Kiawe is a very powerful card. But cards don't get banned for being too good. They get banned for being an oppressive force that warps the entire meta game around that card. David Sirlin of Sirlin games has a great article called "What Should Be Banned" on his game design blog (I'd link it but i'm typing this from a PS4 so please google it). Its written from the prespective of video games but its points are still valid. The main point i'd like to bring up is that banning is inherently a negative-sum game because you are removing options from the game which inturn reduces the number of potential decks players can make. So in order for a ban to be justified its has to positively affect the game by increasing the number of play options by having removed an oppresive force that was keeping players from making choices in the game. Most of the time banning simply the best card or deck doesn't do this because it just shifts the meta to a different deck or card being the best so its a zero-sum effect on the meta but the ban is a still a negative effect on the players' design space as i mentioned before.

Kiawe is not an oppressive force on the game. The thing you fail to realize is that several decks can deal with T1 Kiawe. Garde GX as already mentioned. Vikabulu only need to get two Grubbins benched to be fine as it can just Rare Candy a Vikavolt and one shot the Ho-oh back with a Tapu Koko (and can just sac a one prizer to be ahead in the prize trade). Any deck running Water Energy or Rainbow Energy can just take Tapu Fini GX because you can just Tapu Storm GX the Ho-oh and its 4 energies back into the deck and can even do this in response to T1 Kiawe that went first. Plus unless the Kiawe deck has Guzma turn 2 as well can can just set up a pokemon on the bench for two turn come in after the Ho-oh GX knocks out the pokemon you had left active to eat the hit and then take care of the Ho-Oh GX making it at worse a 2-2 prize trade which is not bad. And this is with out mentioning that a deck with 4 Lele, 4 Kiawe, and 4 Ultra Balls still has a 20% chance of failing to Kiawe on the first turn (and decks generally run less then that count).

Ultimately you are greatly over estimating the power of Kiawe. Its a great card but its not infallible, especially not to the point where its destroying the meta and warrents a ban.

 

[crystal_pidgeot]

@crystal_pidgeot

Yes we get that Kiawe is a very powerful card. But cards don't get banned for being too good. They get banned for being an oppressive force that warps the entire meta game around that card. David Sirlin of Sirlin games has a great article called "What Should Be Banned" on his game design blog (I'd link it but i'm typing this from a PS4 so please google it). Its written from the prespective of video games but its points are still valid. The main point i'd like to bring up is that banning is inherently a negative-sum game because you are removing options from the game which inturn reduces the number of potential decks players can make. So in order for a ban to be justified its has to positively affect the game by increasing the number of play options by having removed an oppresive force that was keeping players from making choices in the game. Most of the time banning simply the best card or deck doesn't do this because it just shifts the meta to a different deck or card being the best so its a zero-sum effect on the meta but the ban is a still a negative effect on the players' design space as i mentioned before.

Kiawe is not an oppressive force on the game. The thing you fail to realize is that several decks can deal with T1 Kiawe. Garde GX as already mentioned. Vikabulu only need to get two Grubbins benched to be fine as it can just Rare Candy a Vikavolt and one shot the Ho-oh back with a Tapu Koko (and can just sac a one prizer to be ahead in the prize trade). Any deck running Water Energy or Rainbow Energy can just take Tapu Fini GX because you can just Tapu Storm GX the Ho-oh and its 4 energies back into the deck and can even do this in response to T1 Kiawe that went first. Plus unless the Kiawe deck has Guzma turn 2 as well can can just set up a pokemon on the bench for two turn come in after the Ho-oh GX knocks out the pokemon you had left active to eat the hit and then take care of the Ho-Oh GX making it at worse a 2-2 prize trade which is not bad. And this is with out mentioning that a deck with 4 Lele, 4 Kiawe, and 4 Ultra Balls still has a 20% chance of failing to Kiawe on the first turn (and decks generally run less then that count).

Ultimately you are greatly over estimating the power of Kiawe. Its a great card but its not infallible, especially not to the point where its destroying the meta and warrents a ban.

Keep in mind I'm not talking about Ho-Oh-GX exclusively. You also don't need to explain game design to me as this is something I do and one thing I try to do is find was to balance games for multiplayer.

 

[CrownAxe]

Keep in mind I'm not talking about Ho-Oh-GX exclusively. You also don't need to explain game design to me as this is something I do and one thing I try to do is find was to balance games for multiplayer.

Well is there anything more powerful then ho-oh to kiawe onto? Because if not then it doesn't matter

Also if you really are a game designer then it sounds like you aren't a very good one.

 

[Otaku]

@crystal_pidgeot, I'm not following the back-and-forth between you and @PMJ too closely; as such, this is a surgical strike of a response because you tagged me. If I did take the time, I expect such a post would only be smaller than the sum of your posts plus those of PMJ because your own posts are often quoting each other.

I supposed I could have taken the @Otaku and given a huge wall of text...

Instead, you made one short post and how many "Wall O'Text" posts since?

I know you're not me, but based on almost two decades of TCG discussion, I prefer to begin this kind of thread by explaining how I'll be using the term "broken". If other things weren't getting in the way, I'd have already stated my thoughts about card banning as well. After that, then I can make shorter posts about specific cards (I hope). XD

Show Kiawe to any MtG player and...

Honest question; do I need to explain the differences between games like Pokémon and Magic: The Gathering? I already gave an example of how a MtG player with little or no Pokémon TCG experience thought Lysandre's Trump Card was balanced, if not a little underwhelming; at the very least, that ought to prove that any MtG player might not understand Pokémon at a glance. Do some? Absolutely; for all I know, it could be the majority. If my point still isn't clear, let me ask you, what would many Yu-Gi-Oh players with little or no Pokémon TCG experience think about a card like Hau?

Again, let me know if I do need to get into the different mechanics of these games and how they can cause an effect both games share to perform very differently. Switching gears...

Well is there anything more powerful then ho-oh to kiawe onto? Because if not then it doesn't matter

I must disagree. I do not think Kiawe needs to be banned, but I have already asserted that not all "broken" cards need to be equally powerful and that sometimes the only thing keeping us from noticing how overly potent one card can be is that another broken card has the metagame by the throat. I cited Ace Spec cards as an example earlier; no matter how broken an effect one gives an Ace Spec card, if the game's designers released one with an even more broken effect, the less broken one would see less (possibly no) play.