Ruling Bursting Balloon & Necrozma Question

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LBelleBird

Aspiring Trainer
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My opponent (on his turn) attached bursting balloon to Turtonator GX and used Shell Trap. I used Necrozma GX's Black Ray GX attack.

[C][C] Shell Trap: 20 dmg. During your opponent's next turn, if this pokemon is damaged by an attack (even if knocked out), put 8 damage counters on the attacking pokemon.

[C][C][C] Black Ray GX: This attack does 100 damage to each of your opponent’s Pokemon-EX and Pokemon-GX. This attack isn’t affected by Weakness, Resistance, or any other effects on each of the Defending Pokemon. (You can’t use more than 1 GX attack per game.)

What we can't figure out is if Black Ray GX hits through the bursting balloon and Shell Trap's effect.

My argument is that it does not do direct damage (therefore an effect of my attack), so it would hit through both Shell Trap's effect and bursting balloon.

His argument is that it doesn't say "place damage counters". Because it says "does damage" would not hit through the effects, and would inflict the 14 damage counters on Necrozma.
 
I believe it would be damage, and Necrozma GX would get 140 damage placed on it from BB and Shell Trap, because both the tool and shell trap say damaged by an attack and your attack doesn't place damage counters. Its 100 damage is just in the text because it does damage to all of your opponents EX and GX.
 
Well, Necrozma says no effects right! So, no effects. Same thing happened at my league with Amphoros-EX's Sparking Tail, which also isn't effected by effects of whatnot. Therefore, Shell Trap and Bursting Balloon would be useless against it.
 
The damage from Black Ray GX isn't affected by any effects on either Active Pokemon. Neither Shell Trap nor Bursting Balloon increase or decrease damage, so Black Ray GX has no interaction with them.

rainyman123 said:
Well, Necrozma says no effects right! So, no effects. Same thing happened at my league with Amphoros-EX's Sparking Tail, which also isn't effected by effects of whatnot. Therefore, Shell Trap and Bursting Balloon would be useless against it.
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I really hope a judge didn't rule that, because it's complete bull.
 
It does in fact interest with the damage. When Amphoros or Necrozma uses either Black Ray or Sparking Tail, the damage from the attack is effected in the fact that it causes the user to become damage. These attacks aren't effected by said effects of whatever. Therefore, Bursting Balloon, Twisted Spoon, Necrozma's Ability, Shell Trap, and etc. are useless against these kinds of attacks.
 
"This attack's damage isn't affected by Weakness, Resistance, or any other effects on your opponent's Active Pokémon." means that the damage you deal isn't affected by anything (Regice's Resistance Blizzard, Carbink's Safeguard etc.). It has absolutely no bearing on anything else. If you're dealing damage, you're dealing damage and that's that. I can vaguely see why you'd come to the conclusion you have, but it's still wrong.
 
we'd need to wait for the official English version to know for sure on necrozma GX, but damage is damage and attacks like Ampharos EX sparkling tail, which seems to have similar wording to Black Ray GX, would cause trap shell and bursting balloon to trigger.

trap shell and bursting balloon aren't effecting sparkling tail they are doing a game state check after the attack is completed to see if it dealt damage to the defending Pokémon and then placing damage counters if it did.
 
Bursting balloon:
If the Pokémon this card is attached to is your Active Pokémon and is damaged by an opponent's attack (even if that Pokémon is Knocked Out), put 6 damage counters on the Attacking Pokémon.
Turtonator GX:
Shell trap
During your opponent's next turn, if this Pokémon is damaged by an attack (even if this Pokémon is Knocked Out), put 8 damage counters on the Attacking Pokémon.
Necrozma GX:
Black Ray GX: This attack does 100 damage to each of your opponent’s Pokemon-EX and Pokemon-GX. This attack isn’t affected by Weakness, Resistance, or any other effects on each of the Defending Pokemon. (You can’t use more than 1 GX attack per game.)

So, what I think is that Necrozma GX wont get any damage at all. So let me explain: After 7 years playing Pokemon competitively there have been many similar situations. If I'm correct, bursting balloon and shell trap place an effect on Turtonator GX. This means that Black Ray GX appears there and no effect can do anything. It's like it appears out of nowhere and you can't trace it back where it came from. I'm not a professor so don't trust me but I'm pretty sure.
 
First of all, it's not an official translation, so it could very well be incorrect. Second of all, it very clearly says "This attack isn’t affected", not that Necrozma-GX isn't affected. If they wanted the attack to work like you think it does, it would place damage counters instead of doing damage.
 
I cannot give an official ruling on Necrozma-GX, as no official English version of the card has been revealed. However, 'Shred' attacks like Amphraos-GX's Sparkling Tail, All Cells Burn on Power Memory, Hydreigon-EX's Shred, etc do not alter the behavior of Bursting Balloon or Shell Trap. These effects have no bearing in the attack's damage. They activate after an attack has resolved completely. This is why a Shaymin-EX with 80 damage on it using Sky Return on a Pokemon with Bursting Balloon would knot be Knocked Out. By the time Bursting Balloon's effect would activate, the Attacking Pokemon (Shaymin-EX) is no longer in play. 'Shred' attacks aren't affected by things that would alter or prevent the damage, such as Carbink's Safeguard Ability or a Jolteon-EX that had used Flash Ray last turn. Bursting Balloon and Shell Trap would activate as normal if those Pokemon were damaged by a 'Shred' attack.
 
We know that we can't officially know the ruling, but based on what we currently know about Necrozma's attack, we would like to know what would technically be the correct play.

So it sounds like the attack does not count as direct damage, and then would not trigger the bursting balloon and shell trap?

I'll compare Necrozma's attack to Manectric's.

If my active were Manectric EX, my opponent's active was Turtonator with a Balloon and Shell Trap in effect, and there was also a benched pokemon (opponent's) with a Bursting Balloon attached. If I were to use the Overrun attack:

[C] Overrun - 20
This attack does 20 damage to 1 of your opponent's benched pokemon (don't apply weakness and resistance on benched pokemon)

Then Manectric would trigger the active Shell Trap damage counters and its Bursting Balloon, because it did 20 direct damage. But it would not trigger the benched pokemon's Bursting Balloon because it was an effect damage.

Is that correct?

I'm asking because the wording is "does x damage" on both cards in their effects, but Manectric does 20 direct damage and Necrozma does not. Maybe using a current official card vs Necrozma's might help figure it out for certain (or at least the likely ruling that we can use for play until we get the official english card!)

Thanks for the help guys, we spent half an hour trying to find a ruling to help us figure it out and couldn't find anything.
 
LBelleBird said:
We know that we can't officially know the ruling, but based on what we currently know about Necrozma's attack, we would like to know what would technically be the correct play.

So it sounds like the attack does not count as direct damage, and then would not trigger the bursting balloon and shell trap?

I'll compare Necrozma's attack to Manectric's.

If my active were Manectric EX, my opponent's active was Turtonator with a Balloon and Shell Trap in effect, and there was also a benched pokemon (opponent's) with a Bursting Balloon attached. If I were to use the Overrun attack:

[C] Overrun - 20
This attack does 20 damage to 1 of your opponent's benched pokemon (don't apply weakness and resistance on benched pokemon)

Then Manectric would trigger the active Shell Trap damage counters and its Bursting Balloon, because it did 20 direct damage. But it would not trigger the benched pokemon's Bursting Balloon because it was an effect damage.

Is that correct?

I'm asking because the wording is "does x damage" on both cards in their effects, but Manectric does 20 direct damage and Necrozma does not. Maybe using a current official card vs Necrozma's might help figure it out for certain (or at least the likely ruling that we can use for play until we get the official english card!)

Thanks for the help guys, we spent half an hour trying to find a ruling to help us figure it out and couldn't find anything.
Click to expand...

Bursting Balloon on the Benched Pokémon does not activate because Bursting Balloon reads "If the Pokémon this card is attached to is your Active Pokémon"
 
Found it.


U5rDOJh.png
 
LBelleBird said:
We know that we can't officially know the ruling, but based on what we currently know about Necrozma's attack, we would like to know what would technically be the correct play.

So it sounds like the attack does not count as direct damage, and then would not trigger the bursting balloon and shell trap?

I'll compare Necrozma's attack to Manectric's.

If my active were Manectric EX, my opponent's active was Turtonator with a Balloon and Shell Trap in effect, and there was also a benched pokemon (opponent's) with a Bursting Balloon attached. If I were to use the Overrun attack:

[C] Overrun - 20
This attack does 20 damage to 1 of your opponent's benched pokemon (don't apply weakness and resistance on benched pokemon)

Then Manectric would trigger the active Shell Trap damage counters and its Bursting Balloon, because it did 20 direct damage. But it would not trigger the benched pokemon's Bursting Balloon because it was an effect damage.

Is that correct?

I'm asking because the wording is "does x damage" on both cards in their effects, but Manectric does 20 direct damage and Necrozma does not. Maybe using a current official card vs Necrozma's might help figure it out for certain (or at least the likely ruling that we can use for play until we get the official english card!)

Thanks for the help guys, we spent half an hour trying to find a ruling to help us figure it out and couldn't find anything.
Click to expand...

Damage is damage, whether it's the big number to the right of the attack text or part of the attack text (e.g. This attack does 20 damage). It is treated exactly the same regardless, and will trigger Bursting Balloon and Shell Trap if they are active. Damage is an effect of an attack. Placing damage counters is not the same as doing damage (e.g. Put 2 damage counters on 1 of your opponent's Pokémon). Placing damage counters via an attack will not trigger Shell Trap or Bursting Balloon.

Bursting Balloon only works if the Pokemon attached to it is the Active Pokemon because the card text says so. If a Turtoantor-GX that used Shell Trap is moved to the Bench (such as if the opponent played Lysandre), the effect of Shell Trap goes away. When a Pokémon is moved to the Bench, all effects on it are removed.
Playing Pokémon Ranger will also remove Shell Trap's effect. The only way to avoid triggering Bursting Balloon would be to remove it entirely via Field Blower, etc. or have an effect that makes Pokemon Tool cards have no effect, such as Yveltal BKP's Fright Night Ability.
 
He'll be happy to know that he was right, lol. Thank you guys! And thanks for letting me know how to try to get around it :p
 
Sorry mordacazir, your comment just sets up for a point I wanted to make so badly. I'm not trying to lecture you... I'm trying to lecture everyone. ;)

mordacazir said:
After 7 years playing Pokemon competitively there have been many similar situations.
Click to expand...

After playing the game for 18 years, I've learned to be very careful with rulings. Periodically, even the official rulings change. Sometimes it is because there was an east versus west miscommunication. Sometimes the powers-that-be reconsider how rules, mechanics, or even wording ought to work. XP

I'm not a "competitive" player in the usual sense; I only play via the PTCGO, and even when I was playing the physical TCG (obviously most of these 18 years) I was seldom "competitive". Just didn't have the time, resources, or really the talent to make it worthwhile. Knowing rulings isn't about being "competitive", it is about taking the time to know the rules, the rulings, and at least a little about the actual game mechanics. Of course, extremely casual players are less likely to care.

Anyway, sounds like some judges were giving bad rulings... which happens. It is hard being a judge, and why it is best for everyone to familiarize themselves with as many rulings as possible. ;) "Shred" style attacks won't have their damage altered by effects on the opponent's Active, but will still trigger stuff like Rocky Helmet, Bursting Balloon, etc. It is possible that Black Ray-GX will set a new precedent, "non-reactive" attacks that won't trigger such things, but the precedent is what others have stated.
 
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