Discussion Caitlin vs Juniper / N / Birch
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Moved from the TCG Help to the TCG Competitive as the OP is looking for discussion on a competitive topic rather than advice. ~bbninjas
Frankly, Caitlin isn't the best draw card in competitive play. Although it's a neat style of draw, it is drastically useless when you have small hands. Professor Juniper, N and Birch allow you to jump from a small hand of two or three cards to a big hand of six or seven! Caitlin is generally only good when you consistently have large hands, which in virtually all decks, this rarely happens.
You appear to be worried about shuffling cards in your hand back into your deck, because you wanted to keep those cards in your hand. The thing is, in competitive play, you need to do this. Cards like N, Birch and Juniper refresh your hand to give you new opportunities. Also, in competitive decks, you will be running multiple copies of cards, so when you do use this Ns, Birchs and Junipers, you are more likely going to get the card you need, and don't need to worry about losing important cards before you used the Supporter.
From someone who has ran Juniper and N for years, you might sound a little crazy.
Frankly, Caitlin isn't the best draw card in competitive play. Although it's a neat style of draw, it is drastically useless when you have small hands. Professor Juniper, N and Birch allow you to jump from a small hand of two or three cards to a big hand of six or seven! Caitlin is generally only good when you consistently have large hands, which in virtually all decks, this rarely happens.
You appear to be worried about shuffling cards in your hand back into your deck, because you wanted to keep those cards in your hand. The thing is, in competitive play, you need to do this. Cards like N, Birch and Juniper refresh your hand to give you new opportunities. Also, in competitive decks, you will be running multiple copies of cards, so when you do use this Ns, Birchs and Junipers, you are more likely going to get the card you need, and don't need to worry about losing important cards before you used the Supporter.
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Thanks for your response bb. So I stopped using N and Juniper because I would always have a card or two that I absolutely needed. For instance, I'd have a stage 2 in my hand and it's basic on the bench. Caitlin lets me send the cards I don't immediately need back - and this is the majority of what is in my hand - without having to send everything back. And I usually do have a lot of cards in my hand but. I will 100% agree that Caitlin is bad if you only have a few cards.
Moved from the TCG Help to the TCG Competitive as the OP is looking for discussion on a competitive topic rather than advice. ~bbninjas
From someone who has ran Juniper and N for years, you might sound a little crazy.
Frankly, Caitlin isn't the best draw card in competitive play. Although it's a neat style of draw, it is drastically useless when you have small hands. Professor Juniper, N and Birch allow you to jump from a small hand of two or three cards to a big hand of six or seven! Caitlin is generally only good when you consistently have large hands, which in virtually all decks, this rarely happens.
You appear to be worried about shuffling cards in your hand back into your deck, because you wanted to keep those cards in your hand. The thing is, in competitive play, you need to do this. Cards like N, Birch and Juniper refresh your hand to give you new opportunities. Also, in competitive decks, you will be running multiple copies of cards, so when you do use this Ns, Birchs and Junipers, you are more likely going to get the card you need, and don't need to worry about losing important cards before you used the Supporter.
You may find that if you often have large hands, then you should run a combination of Professor Juniper and Caitlin for consistency reasons. Also, if you don't mind, could you post a decklist similar to the one that you often play with Caitlin? There may be other ways that you can make it more consistent so you don't have to use Caitlin as often and rather better draw.
In terms of raw card advantage, Caitlen is always a -1; you use her and whether you trade out none, all, or somewhere in between, your hand shrinks by one card. If she let you draw a set amount plus however many cards you shuffled back into your deck, she would be better. Especially if bottom-decking cards was optional, so she couldn't clog your hand alongside something like a Maxie's Hidden Ball Trick. As she is, she is a terrible top deck; not the only thing that matters, but pretty crucial for a draw supporter. She also just isn't that great unless you
- have a combo that requires bottom decking/returning something to the deck
- have at least four cards in hand you can afford to return to the deck
It depends. It is very natural to have less cards in your hand often because when you design a deck, you want every card to have a purpose; and as such, not be stuck in your hand. This is why I'm wondering what your deck is like; because perhaps there is a different reason why Caitlin is viable for you and rarely for anyone else.
So here's the deck I used last night to win 2 tournaments, a 3rd/4th place finish, but also 2 one and dones:
2 Gible 68/122
2 Garchomp 70/122
1 Machop 44/111
1 Machamp 35/111
2 Ralts 59/135
2 Gallade 84/162
2 Deoxys 33/108
1 Energy retrieval 126/160
1 Pokemon Communication 24/30
2 Professor's Letter 123/146
4 Puzzle of Time 109/122
4 Rare Candy 135/160
4 Roller Skates 125/146
1 Scramble Switch 129/135
1 Target Whistle 106/119
4 VS Seeker 109/119
1 Brigette 134/162
1 Ghetsis 101/116
3 Korrina 95/111
1 Lysandre 78/98
2 Skyla 148/162
4 Tierno 112/122
2 Caitlin 78/101
1 Fighting stadium 90/111
1 Focus Sash 91/111
4 Strong Energy 115/124
6 Fighting Energy
In the past, I have used Delphox, Octillery, and Slurpuff to help with draw power. I will admit that draw power in this deck isn't what I'd like it to be.
So I guess my point is this: if I have 7 cards in my hand, there are probably a couple that I know I'm going to want to use in the next round or two. With Caitlin, I can keep those and very happily discard the other 5 I don't need. Also, and I do sometimes have a lot of cards in my hand, then I can really dump a lot of them and get a new hand refresh much larger than Juniper or N or Birch could provide.
Honestly, it's probably a six of one half dozen of another thing, but I can kind of see in my mind's eye a mathematical formula where you guys are right and the expected probability of getting more cards that I really need in the beginning of the game is higher by using Juniper, N, or Birch. I just guess I'd like the option of being able to keep a card or two when I go to reload my hand.
Thanks again for your responses to my thread. BTW I have only been playing this for a couple of months and love it!
2 Gible 68/122
2 Garchomp 70/122
1 Machop 44/111
1 Machamp 35/111
2 Ralts 59/135
2 Gallade 84/162
2 Deoxys 33/108
1 Energy retrieval 126/160
1 Pokemon Communication 24/30
2 Professor's Letter 123/146
4 Puzzle of Time 109/122
4 Rare Candy 135/160
4 Roller Skates 125/146
1 Scramble Switch 129/135
1 Target Whistle 106/119
4 VS Seeker 109/119
1 Brigette 134/162
1 Ghetsis 101/116
3 Korrina 95/111
1 Lysandre 78/98
2 Skyla 148/162
4 Tierno 112/122
2 Caitlin 78/101
1 Fighting stadium 90/111
1 Focus Sash 91/111
4 Strong Energy 115/124
6 Fighting Energy
In the past, I have used Delphox, Octillery, and Slurpuff to help with draw power. I will admit that draw power in this deck isn't what I'd like it to be.
So I guess my point is this: if I have 7 cards in my hand, there are probably a couple that I know I'm going to want to use in the next round or two. With Caitlin, I can keep those and very happily discard the other 5 I don't need. Also, and I do sometimes have a lot of cards in my hand, then I can really dump a lot of them and get a new hand refresh much larger than Juniper or N or Birch could provide.
Honestly, it's probably a six of one half dozen of another thing, but I can kind of see in my mind's eye a mathematical formula where you guys are right and the expected probability of getting more cards that I really need in the beginning of the game is higher by using Juniper, N, or Birch. I just guess I'd like the option of being able to keep a card or two when I go to reload my hand.
Thanks again for your responses to my thread. BTW I have only been playing this for a couple of months and love it!
Congratulations on your placings! It is a great achievement that you have managed to construct a deck that performs well at semi-competitive level. ^.^
The thing about your deck that makes it particularly different is that it uses multiple Stage 2 lines and the use of Rare Candy over Stage 1s. Decks will rarely do this in higher competitive tournaments because of the amount of item lock (Seismitoad-EX, Trevenant BREAK and Vileplume/Vespiquen archetypes) that is prevalent. However, you don't need to watch out for this as much at the semi-competitive level it appears you are currently playing in.
The main reason that Caitlin will work well in your deck is because you will end up with large hands, because of the clunkiness (multiple Stage 2s and Rare Candy). You also should find that you will often have many Supporters in your hand at one time - with a total of 19 including VS Seeker. That is quite a bit more than normal! Most of your other trainers are situational techs, so due to either restrictions (i.e. Supporters) or the nature of the card (i.e. Energy Retrieval, Target Whistle etc) you will naturally not be using all too many cards each turn, resulting in large hands with many useless cards.
If you look at the decks that wins large, highly competitive tournaments, you may notice the difference they have to your deck. Most cards can be used immediately and there are often no evolution chains or if there are some, only one Pokemon chain (i.e. 4-3-2 Phantump/Trevenant/BREAK). This is why they will use Professor Juniper and N rather than Caitlin. You may notice that none of these decks run Tierno, and that is because it draws less cards than things like Juniper and N.
(Also, if you're interested, you can post your deck list in the Deck Garage for further, more specific feedback on it. ;D )
The thing about your deck that makes it particularly different is that it uses multiple Stage 2 lines and the use of Rare Candy over Stage 1s. Decks will rarely do this in higher competitive tournaments because of the amount of item lock (Seismitoad-EX, Trevenant BREAK and Vileplume/Vespiquen archetypes) that is prevalent. However, you don't need to watch out for this as much at the semi-competitive level it appears you are currently playing in.
The main reason that Caitlin will work well in your deck is because you will end up with large hands, because of the clunkiness (multiple Stage 2s and Rare Candy). You also should find that you will often have many Supporters in your hand at one time - with a total of 19 including VS Seeker. That is quite a bit more than normal! Most of your other trainers are situational techs, so due to either restrictions (i.e. Supporters) or the nature of the card (i.e. Energy Retrieval, Target Whistle etc) you will naturally not be using all too many cards each turn, resulting in large hands with many useless cards.
If you look at the decks that wins large, highly competitive tournaments, you may notice the difference they have to your deck. Most cards can be used immediately and there are often no evolution chains or if there are some, only one Pokemon chain (i.e. 4-3-2 Phantump/Trevenant/BREAK). This is why they will use Professor Juniper and N rather than Caitlin. You may notice that none of these decks run Tierno, and that is because it draws less cards than things like Juniper and N.
(Also, if you're interested, you can post your deck list in the Deck Garage for further, more specific feedback on it. ;D )
Since you've designed this particular deck with Tierno and Caitlin in mind, it may be best not to swap around with Juniper and N. I would recommend you instead to try an entirely new deck for the new draw, and get ahold of the new draw that way.
Competitive decks are built with speed in mind. They stream line all the cards out they don't need to play the ones they do need. For competitive play, in most circumstances, battle compressor and Professor Sycamore are needed to accomplish this task.
Example Max Elixier: I was explaining this to some league players the other day. The reason why you run battle compressor and Prof Juniper is to increase your probability of hitting the energy. You thin your deck of all the cards you don't need -- so you can hit the ones you do need. It is one of the reason NM is so big and consistent. You can thin of all the cards it doesn't need, Pukaboo, Lampient and Supporters to get exactly the ones you do need with high probability. What do you need Shaymin, DCE, and Vs seeker. By thinning your deck in such a way, your probability of hitting the card you need gets delivered at a 95% ratio.
So why does a fighting deck work with Catlin? It is mostly because of Korina. Korina, if not under item distress, is the best card in the game because it gets you the cards you do need with 100% efficiency, even more efficient than NM because it is 100% accurate. Catlin circulates the item cards into the deck. You can also try machine maintenance. It works a bit better in those regards, because you can circulate back the item in your deck, and don't need to loose the turn. You then pull it out with Korinia. As long as you have a Korinia in hand it can push the decks efficiency. Unfortunately, once item lock comes down on the deck, Professor sycamore comes in handy for those big cards pulls.
Example: Areodactyl: I play this deck all the time and trainers always give me a wow when I show them the bird on first turn. It happens about 85% of the time. I even run it with Maxies and can flip a Gallade -- that happens about 40% of the time to hit both on first turn. The reason I can flip them the bird on first turn is because of battle compressor and fossil excavation. I can drop the supporters and items in the discard for thinning purposes and fossil excavation them out. The thinner my decks becomes the more I can hit the bird. By running 4 BC's and a Sycamore you can basically thin your deck out to the point of what is needed.
No...I don't use Omastar. --- That is an absolutely ridiculous card.
Congrats on the victory!
Example Max Elixier: I was explaining this to some league players the other day. The reason why you run battle compressor and Prof Juniper is to increase your probability of hitting the energy. You thin your deck of all the cards you don't need -- so you can hit the ones you do need. It is one of the reason NM is so big and consistent. You can thin of all the cards it doesn't need, Pukaboo, Lampient and Supporters to get exactly the ones you do need with high probability. What do you need Shaymin, DCE, and Vs seeker. By thinning your deck in such a way, your probability of hitting the card you need gets delivered at a 95% ratio.
So why does a fighting deck work with Catlin? It is mostly because of Korina. Korina, if not under item distress, is the best card in the game because it gets you the cards you do need with 100% efficiency, even more efficient than NM because it is 100% accurate. Catlin circulates the item cards into the deck. You can also try machine maintenance. It works a bit better in those regards, because you can circulate back the item in your deck, and don't need to loose the turn. You then pull it out with Korinia. As long as you have a Korinia in hand it can push the decks efficiency. Unfortunately, once item lock comes down on the deck, Professor sycamore comes in handy for those big cards pulls.
Example: Areodactyl: I play this deck all the time and trainers always give me a wow when I show them the bird on first turn. It happens about 85% of the time. I even run it with Maxies and can flip a Gallade -- that happens about 40% of the time to hit both on first turn. The reason I can flip them the bird on first turn is because of battle compressor and fossil excavation. I can drop the supporters and items in the discard for thinning purposes and fossil excavation them out. The thinner my decks becomes the more I can hit the bird. By running 4 BC's and a Sycamore you can basically thin your deck out to the point of what is needed.
No...I don't use Omastar. --- That is an absolutely ridiculous card.
Congrats on the victory!
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