Can Reprinting Cards improve the Format?

[DmightyB]

Reprints have widely been made throughout trading card games, but Pokemon for some reason makes only a few bare ones from a whole set in a generation or sometime not at all. Generations set brought 2 cards back from the 90's, a tauros and a slowpoke..... There were so many amazing cards from the 1st gen sets to choose from , even if they were low hp, there could have been the Clefairy (base set) Tangel (jungle) reprint, or even if ever wow imagine they made Professor Oak as a reprint? for the 20th anniversary?

From a perspective of a long time fan/ player I feel that most of the time they bring stuff back in sets, the company's not hitting the overall expectations of all poke lovers out there and while making a reprint set like Champion Set in Japan that might come in America or Europe is a necessity to help people obtain cards that are outrageously expensive or unobtainable, I cannot understand why make new sets (referencing fates collide and especially Generations) that have trash cards and a few cards you can count on your hand that cost a hefty sum of cash to get 4 for a deck . I know so its to even out the booster rate I guess, but that still leaves a gap in fan satisfaction of finding anything usable in a pack, I feel maybe bringing some of the fantastic tactis from back in the day would downright bring this whole charade of hyping 4 top tier decks while the rest of the cards in typing have no chance .
Back from the ex series and Diamond and Pearl, there were tons of poke powers/ bodies to give variety.
example: the old eevee exes back in the day blow away the new Eevee exes by a mile with their unique abilities, the ex/dp deoxys that could change to gain an upper hand, and my personal favourite all delta species pokemon .

While nowadays the most expensive support car.... ehem EX, Shaymin EX has an ability of a supporter. We had Shauna for that ? What was the point of printing shauna if you got Shaymin ? Hex Maniac can stop shaymin for sure, but how many times is a onesie hex maniac gonna come to the rescue in a deck ?

I just hope that for the sake of bringing some more excitement back in play they bring some new tactics or just bringing the old ones back in rotation, I'd rather have that than a new set that has 2-8 cards that are useful every 3-4 months.

My question to all you players out there , should reprints come back to haunt the present or just keep at it with nightmarching (ninja boy has yet to come) or stay with the good 45$ Shaymin a pop EX and have the meta be infested with mostly just exes?

 

[Rusery]

While i am not impressed with what Exs have done to this game, i see that they have some purpose. Basically to stop or help stop steamrolling. The issue becomes who can steamroll who first and there is usually no coming back. This has pretty much led to no-brain net-deck nightmarching and vespiqueening because you know by T2 you can set up 120 damage.

Yup there are counters. No, those counters don't always work or show up when you need them. You build you deck trying to counter these horribly broken strats while the broken decks mostly don't need to tech anything at all to beat you or worry about your "counters".

The game needs to slow down. Stop giving players complete control over milling and searching. Less coin flips and more status initiating attacks. IE if opposing pokemon has -this- do that. Sceptile-EX and Ariados' poisonous nest is an excellent example of evoling pokes to work in tandem for KOs. Takes a couple of turns to set up, gives the opponent plenty of time to react and stands to make the game interesting.

 

[RiverShock]

Reprinting (long) out of format Pokemon is VERY different from reprinting trainers. Reprinting an old Pokemon is basically always just for nostalgia's sake, and is rarely, if ever, relevant to the format. Considering Pokemon are what define a format, previous ones that would significantly alter the format probably shouldn't return. It would kinda negate a lot of the point of rotations, since the major players would remain around. We don't need a relapse of Stormfront Machamp and Gyarados. >.> (Though I have to admit, Stormfront Gyarados would probably be interesting in this format, heh.)

Trainers are the kind of thing that SHOULD be reprinted if it's warranted, however. It increases the availability by default, making it easier to get the Trainers you need to make your deck consistent. Trainers usually don't define a format (there are exceptions, of course, like a lot of the second half of the EX era, with the Team Rocket and Holon's trainers), so as long as they don't break the format (we don't need Poke Drawer+ or Junk Arm back >.>), they're fine.

Oh, and the Tauros isn't a reprint of the Jungle one. It's a reprint of the XY one with the Jungle one's art. Slowpoke's one of only three pre-XY Pokemon that are currently legal in Standard. (The other two both being BW-era cards.)

 

[MarshalBry]

Reprinting (long) out of format Pokemon is VERY different from reprinting trainers. Reprinting an old Pokemon is basically always just for nostalgia's sake, and is rarely, if ever, relevant to the format. Considering Pokemon are what define a format, previous ones that would significantly alter the format probably shouldn't return. It would kinda negate a lot of the point of rotations, since the major players would remain around. We don't need a relapse of Stormfront Machamp and Gyarados. >.> (Though I have to admit, Stormfront Gyarados would probably be interesting in this format, heh.)

Trainers are the kind of thing that SHOULD be reprinted if it's warranted, however. It increases the availability by default, making it easier to get the Trainers you need to make your deck consistent. Trainers usually don't define a format (there are exceptions, of course, like a lot of the second half of the EX era, with the Team Rocket and Holon's trainers), so as long as they don't break the format (we don't need Poke Drawer+ or Junk Arm back >.>), they're fine.

Oh, and the Tauros isn't a reprint of the Jungle one. It's a reprint of the XY one with the Jungle one's art. Slowpoke's one of only three pre-XY Pokemon that are currently legal in Standard. (The other two both being BW-era cards.)

I'm pretty sure Fossil Slowpoke isn't legal for the fact it reads Trainer card instead of Item card? I could be wrong.

 

[RiverShock]

It should be. Keep in mind that when Fossil was around, ALL Trainers were what we now call Items. It also wouldn't be the first time we've gotten minor changes to an old returning Pokemon that didn't prevent its use. (Base Set Charizard's reprint in Stormfront differed much more from its Base print than this Slowpoke does from its original print.)

 

[Otaku]

This is gonna sound like a rant, because in part it is. I've discussed a lot of this in various threads on various message boards. It isn't supposed to sound angry at any person, but I used up my time typing it and I have to either delete it or include this foreword and hope it doesn't sound like I'm trying to start a fight instead of a discussion.

My question to all you players out there , should reprints come back to haunt the present or just keep at it with nightmarching (ninja boy has yet to come) or stay with the good 45$ Shaymin a pop EX and have the meta be infested with mostly just exes?

Seems like a false choice as the two are not mutually exclusive. Straight up reprints of a lot of cards would likely just reinforce the current state of the game, in part because a lot of cards are practically reprints.

Not doing this to be mean, but because it is important to know what cards are what and how similar they are to what came before. Take this line of yours:

While nowadays the most expensive support car.... ehem EX, Shaymin EX has an ability of a supporter. We had Shauna for that ? What was the point of printing shauna if you got Shaymin ?

Shaymin-EX (XY: Roaring Skies 77/108, 106/108) is a support card. A support card does not have to be a Supporter, and in fact if you were paying attention to discussions by players during the BW-era, one of our complaints was that decks were too Trainer, especially Supporter reliant. Anyway, its "Set Up" Ability draws the same amount of cards as Bianca would in that situation, not Shauna. Biacna is "Draw cards until you have 6 cards in your hand." Shauna has the effect "Shuffle your hand into your deck. Then, draw 5 cards." The big thing to understand is that Shaymin-EX is just a rehash of an older card: Uxie (DP: Legends Awakened 43/146). Except Shaymin-EX is (for the most part) the nerfed version of Uxie (its Set Up Poké-Power drew seven cards instead of six). Several current cards are just older cards with new names, especially in the Trainers. Crushing Hammer is just the new Energy Removal 2. Enhanced Hammer is a toned down Lost Remover and all of Crushing Hammer, Enhanced Hammer, Energy Removal 2 and Lost Remover are the nerfed version of the original Energy Removal. Computer Search is... Computer Search, but what was released as a "Normal Trainer" when the game began was reprinted as an Ace Spec.

Actually, the game since Black & White has largely been a compressed version of what we saw from the previous generations. Tweaked versions of older ideas were reused, and what worked in the past usually worked now. Where it hasn't, I am starting to suspect we had it wrong back in the day. I began playing the TCG in early 1999, but I didn't know about Pokémon League or the online community until late 2000/early 2001. When I go back and look at stuff I wrote even five years ago, I am shocked at the information I didn't have and the things I used to assume. It is just so much easier nowadays to go out and find a good, solid deck list, when back in the day they were jealously guarded... which actually caused things to stagnate since it wasn't that the strategy was good, just that by keeping it secret people didn't have the chance to learn and counter it.

@Emskas has a better idea; power creep has been bad for years so we need another power crunch. We've had them before; the cards in Base Set were insane, and each subsequent set toned things down until we got to the Gym Sets, where a new normal was established. It is easy to forget because Neo Genesis introduced two cards so broken that they were banned, plus some mechanics that were similarly too powerful for our own good (original Baby Pokémon @_@).

If we want things to improve, I propose actually increasing HP scores while keeping damage output the same or dropping it slightly. This could allow cards that are technically weaker to hang with the current crop. For Evolutions, "frontload" the HP so that a Stage 2 with 150 HP Evolves from a Stage 1 with 120 Evolves from a Basic with 100 (Note: arbitrary numbers plugged in to serve as an example). I also suggest the designers stop creating anything that can attack for damage or otherwise score a KO the first few turns of the game; let those be for setting up. Then maybe we can get our first turn attacks back. Stop making Pokémon that are so universal; not only should most cards not be easy to work into any old deck but we need to stop seeing things that can be an opening attacker, main attacker, closing attacker, and basically fill multiple roles in a deck.

Finally, make sure lower Stages have a purpose and one appropriate to their Stage. Don't let them just be stepping stones. Evolving Basics should be natural opening Pokémon. Evolving Stage 1 cards might have useful supporting attacks but probably should have Abilities that make them like a bonus Supporter or Item. Do this and you can eliminate the inherent advantages in the Evolution mechanics for Basics without trying to alter the end results. We've been trying for more or less the entire game to balance different Stages of Evolution by making Evolutions more powerful. When we did that, Basics that didn't Evolve were the overshadowed, neglected ones. It just works best if everything fully Evolved is on even footing (save for effects that might be balanced having to wait for a Stage 2 to hit the field but not a Basic).

 

[DmightyB]

This is gonna sound like a rant, because in part it is. I've discussed a lot of this in various threads on various message boards. It isn't supposed to sound angry at any person, but I used up my time typing it and I have to either delete it or include this foreword and hope it doesn't sound like I'm trying to start a fight instead of a discussion.



Seems like a false choice as the two are not mutually exclusive. Straight up reprints of a lot of cards would likely just reinforce the current state of the game, in part because a lot of cards are practically reprints.

Not doing this to be mean, but because it is important to know what cards are what and how similar they are to what came before. Take this line of yours:



Shaymin-EX (XY: Roaring Skies 77/108, 106/108) is a support card. A support card does not have to be a Supporter, and in fact if you were paying attention to discussions by players during the BW-era, one of our complaints was that decks were too Trainer, especially Supporter reliant. Anyway, its "Set Up" Ability draws the same amount of cards as Bianca would in that situation, not Shauna. Biacna is "Draw cards until you have 6 cards in your hand." Shauna has the effect "Shuffle your hand into your deck. Then, draw 5 cards." The big thing to understand is that Shaymin-EX is just a rehash of an older card: Uxie (DP: Legends Awakened 43/146). Except Shaymin-EX is (for the most part) the nerfed version of Uxie (its Set Up Poké-Power drew seven cards instead of six). Several current cards are just older cards with new names, especially in the Trainers. Crushing Hammer is just the new Energy Removal 2. Enhanced Hammer is a toned down Lost Remover and all of Crushing Hammer, Enhanced Hammer, Energy Removal 2 and Lost Remover are the nerfed version of the original Energy Removal. Computer Search is... Computer Search, but what was released as a "Normal Trainer" when the game began was reprinted as an Ace Spec.

Actually, the game since Black & White has largely been a compressed version of what we saw from the previous generations. Tweaked versions of older ideas were reused, and what worked in the past usually worked now. Where it hasn't, I am starting to suspect we had it wrong back in the day. I began playing the TCG in early 1999, but I didn't know about Pokémon League or the online community until late 2000/early 2001. When I go back and look at stuff I wrote even five years ago, I am shocked at the information I didn't have and the things I used to assume. It is just so much easier nowadays to go out and find a good, solid deck list, when back in the day they were jealously guarded... which actually caused things to stagnate since it wasn't that the strategy was good, just that by keeping it secret people didn't have the chance to learn and counter it.

@Emskas has a better idea; power creep has been bad for years so we need another power crunch. We've had them before; the cards in Base Set were insane, and each subsequent set toned things down until we got to the Gym Sets, where a new normal was established. It is easy to forget because Neo Genesis introduced two cards so broken that they were banned, plus some mechanics that were similarly too powerful for our own good (original Baby Pokémon @_@).

If we want things to improve, I propose actually increasing HP scores while keeping damage output the same or dropping it slightly. This could allow cards that are technically weaker to hang with the current crop. For Evolutions, "frontload" the HP so that a Stage 2 with 150 HP Evolves from a Stage 1 with 120 Evolves from a Basic with 100 (Note: arbitrary numbers plugged in to serve as an example). I also suggest the designers stop creating anything that can attack for damage or otherwise score a KO the first few turns of the game; let those be for setting up. Then maybe we can get our first turn attacks back. Stop making Pokémon that are so universal; not only should most cards not be easy to work into any old deck but we need to stop seeing things that can be an opening attacker, main attacker, closing attacker, and basically fill multiple roles in a deck.

Finally, make sure lower Stages have a purpose and one appropriate to their Stage. Don't let them just be stepping stones. Evolving Basics should be natural opening Pokémon. Evolving Stage 1 cards might have useful supporting attacks but probably should have Abilities that make them like a bonus Supporter or Item. Do this and you can eliminate the inherent advantages in the Evolution mechanics for Basics without trying to alter the end results. We've been trying for more or less the entire game to balance different Stages of Evolution by making Evolutions more powerful. When we did that, Basics that didn't Evolve were the overshadowed, neglected ones. It just works best if everything fully Evolved is on even footing (save for effects that might be balanced having to wait for a Stage 2 to hit the field but not a Basic).

Well, the whole evolution of Pokemon from stages does work, especially with breaks now (Greninja/Delphox are perfect examples here), but the evolutions can't completely make up going against tanks such as Zygarde EX/Charizard EX
As you said, being the issue of hp count , I think a reduction in Attack hit points would be even more helpful but unfortunately increases the battle duration, but as seeing the new exes ( Volcanion EX) ( aka goodbye non-evolving basics XD ) or put it simply super Serperior (you know what I mean) the BW era's imagination in getting old tactics back in play ( BW is my least played TCG era , I apologize for not knowing most of the of cards there ) I checked up and during that time no vs seeker was applied so it must have been a terror with supporters back then !!!
Although not everything should be reprinted for the sake of new things ( and okay, thank god for no Hypnotoxic laser reprint )
But like the Champion Set in Japan shows that that , exactly like Legendary Treasures, it would be a breath of air at least to get the difficult cards in packs again at the very least , as reprints of old cards will get tiring someday !
Although the whole energy removal issue and with the whole supporter being countered with Shaymin EX, why make just that 1 card ?Not counting Octillery as it takes a turn or 2 to get without Wally and thus Shaymin EX wins here) I feel maybe here the whole idea of PROMO reprinting is completely lost , with giving us a land Shaymin EX as a promo, as if THEY KNOW we need the colorless Shaymin ex , but well a road kill Shaymin EX would do fine :/
I think the whole idea of reprinting , is that it should at least be based on the current meta and not just bringing in some FUN tactics back in play and concentrate solely on trying to compete with other tier decks at the very least, I mean come on , the Uxie was at the every least doomed to not be reused that very turn due to her attack throwing her back in the deck but Shaymin EX just keeps coming back unless knocked out so some rules are being broken somehow by not even nerfing the card no ? I see there the card was essentially upgraded thanks to its attack, and because of AZ , you could make it work 3 times in 2 turns if you only have 1 ! But they could have made 2 exes at the very least in the sets that had that ability so as to neutralize the whole rarity out there eat the very least, I don't think a parent will accept to go pay 50 bucks for 1 card so their kid can play competitively / or older players , would you like to pay that much just to play competitive , isn't it a tad extreme ?

 

[DmightyB]

While i am not impressed with what Exs have done to this game, i see that they have some purpose. Basically to stop or help stop steamrolling. The issue becomes who can steamroll who first and there is usually no coming back. This has pretty much led to no-brain net-deck nightmarching and vespiqueening because you know by T2 you can set up 120 damage.

Yup there are counters. No, those counters don't always work or show up when you need them. You build you deck trying to counter these horribly broken strats while the broken decks mostly don't need to tech anything at all to beat you or worry about your "counters".

The game needs to slow down. Stop giving players complete control over milling and searching. Less coin flips and more status initiating attacks. IE if opposing pokemon has -this- do that. Sceptile-EX and Ariados' poisonous nest is an excellent example of evoling pokes to work in tandem for KOs. Takes a couple of turns to set up, gives the opponent plenty of time to react and stands to make the game interesting.

Essentially making the game at the very least playable would be great, although the Ariados could even be further boosted with Machamp EX so mixing cards can be fruitful and interesting there I agree

 

[DmightyB]

I would love old reprints, but there are many, many problems with bringing back older cards, and i'll list them now, make some theories, whilst reciting a bit of history.

1. What to choose?

There have been tons of playable cards released in the last two decades from the Pokemon company. Gimmicks such as the crystal Pokemon, Gold Star Cards, and Lv. Xs (Which you could argue are just breaks, but they really aren't) have all been present at one time and then defunct the next. Not to mention the countless amount of other miscellaneous cards that saw play. Finding the right playable cards would be a huge challenge, and as sets went on a bit of a minefield, as fans would want all sorts of cards to be reprinted. Pokemon is definitely listening to us, as many cards that were brought back in generations have been ones people wanted. However, keep in mind that The Pokemon Company still wants to keep their meta balanced and decently fresh, whilst making money. This is why things like Trevenant didn't get reprinted, as it had been around for years, and was played to death. To tell you guys the truth, I have absolutely no idea why Pokemon printed Tauros and Slowpoke for generations. It feels so random and useless, and really just used to provoke nostalgia with those that get the "easter egg". If someone had told me last year that Pokemon would be reprinting old cards, I would have assumed they would reprint old ex cards, or ever farther back, A base set Alakazam, Machamp, Ditto, or Mewtwo. How cool would that be! Usually Pokemon has reprinted iconic cards in modern sets. This included Sneasel (Undaunted), and the old Charizard line (Stormfront). I would love for them to do something like that again soon, maybe once we get our Sinnoh remakes ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°).

2. Where do they even fit in?

People that have played the TCG throughout the years could probably sum up each TCG generation in a couple sentences. This is because as you get to know this game it is becomes very clear how each deck plays, and what you are trying to accomplish. For example, many people would say this is the generation of incredible game speed, inhumane levels of damage, and very little strategy. Many new players look at older games (RS and earlier DP) and are puzzled at what is going on, and write the games off as slow and inferior. Whereas they are nothing of that sort, it was just a very different time. See what i'm getting at here? Old cards are not equipped to handle the massive HP and damage new cards can put out. I still have my Shuppet/Dunsparse donk deck half built, and if I were to bring that to league now I would get crushed. However, if I had went 6-7 years earlier, I would have done some serious damage. Why? because the meta in 2009-2010 was overrun by 1 turn games, and smaller Pokemon. which Shuppet wipes the floor with. Shuppet was also used due to an extremely corrupt meta, where you could literally force your opponent to pick up their Pokemon, you could do decent amounts of damage, and search for almost anything you wanted whenever you needed it. (Some exceptioms to that last one, keystone seal was a thing.) An easier explanation for those that watch too many Pokemon TCG fact videos, it is like that banned Sneasel being reprinted. Nobody played that card when it was reprinted, yet it tore things up back in it's day. Even the beefier exs, Lv Xs, and primes would have some trouble now, mainly because they usually take a few turns to get into play, and don't do too much damage.

The is an easy solution to this: change cards so much that they are unrecognizable, but fit the meta (i.e. Yanmega break + Normal from Steam Siege vs Yanmega Prime). But then again, are you really bringing back anything? Or are the similarities between cards just a trait of the Pokemon in the games? For example, every consecutive Mew card since the RS era excluding Promos, and commemorative cards has had some sort of way to copy attacks, be it an attack, ability, or Poke-Power/Body. Is Pokemon trying to keep the ability to copy your opponents attacks in every format, and Mew is conveniently the Pokemon to give it to, always? Nope. because things like Ditto and Mega Gengar exist. Mew is consistently given this, so when we hear of a new Mew card, we usually think, "Copying attacks, Yay!". Another example is the Yanmega previously mentioned, it's little trait is that it can use it's attacks for free as long as there are 4 cards in your hand. The old one had the same effect, but you had to have the same amounts of cards in your hand as your opponent. These both go well with a supporter that is in their respective era, Prime being copycat, Break being judge.

3. The Deja Vu

Have we all looked at the Premium Champion Set? Yes? If not, go look at it, it's very important to how the next couple years of the TCG could play out. I think we can all agree that the community is split on how this set will affect the game. On one side, we have people super happy, as they relax, knowing that their hundreds of dollars spent on cards will have been a worthwhile investment that will last a while. On the other hand, there are those that are really angry, knowing that the meta will only change a little, as huge decks such as Manectric, Trevenant, Night March, Groudon, Rayquaza, Medicham, Manectric, and Seismitoad. will all be making a comeback. Not only that, but Premium Champion Set has literally reprinted every single card that was playable this generation. I am leaning more towards the latter side, but boy, I sure want my sky field to stay in format!

This concept can be applied to the old cards, people that have played the game for a while will think it's RIDICULOUS to get all the cards you thought were gone back. I'm going to try out Yanmega Break just for old time's sake, and I most likely will get tired of it very soon. It will feel like the game has looped back to where it was in 2010.

4. Finale

My real point is that reprints of old cards are not very helpful right now, but could be in the distant future. Right now, bringing back old concepts will be perceived as lazy, and creative, but soon, cards that work like older ones could be just what this game needs. Bring in the theory.

Theory : The Big Slowdown:

Look at this game. We've been accelerating so quickly, that all cards before Black and White seem ancient, and no decks completely revolving around BW cards see play in expanded. The game just gets faster and faster, with more damage being done, and more outrageous concepts being thrown out. No wonder we just got our first ban in years last season, and then another one only a couple months later. Pokemon screwed up, and created a card that was too broken, banned it, and then realized that another card combination was lethal. I'm sure bans won't happen for a while, but those two showed us that bans are definitely an option that Pokemon can take to intervene. I think some cards from Steam Siege are signs that change may come to Pokemon. Look at the Foongus that can get you 3 Pokeballs when you play it. Pokeballs are flipping cards. Is this hinting that we may have to go back to flipping coins to get our Pokemon, a trait that was part of old Pokemon formats? This is super possible, as we will probably run out of the classic Ultra Ball before we get rid of stuff like Raichu and Dugtrio. (This is considering the 2016-2017 season format is either Phantom Forces and up or Primal Clash and up and then either Breakpoint and up, Breakthrough and up, or Generations and up for 2017-2018, and Ultra Ball gets no more reprints). These changes could show that Pokemon is trying to slow the game, which is great. I'm sorry if you guys are tired of me talking about Yanmega Break, but it is literally a ripoff of another card, and is (to my knowlage) will work at same speed as the old one. If we get more changes, the slowdown is going to be very likely, but what processes will the game have to go through to change?

1. Every new card is going to seem horrible.

Every card scan we will look over in this period of slowdown will seem to have significantly less utility compared to ones that came before it.

2. Rotations will be quicker

Pokemon will have to quickly rotate out all of the old cards to push everyone to the new cards. This could result in cards only being in rotation for 1 year.

3. Expanded DIES

What's that format again that allows you to use all of the cards that you have from 5 years ago in regular tournaments, causes bans, doesn't let cards die, and will most likely be the #1 issue the big slowdown will have to overcome? Oh yeah, expanded. Get rid of it. or at least get it out of regionals.

I hope you guys enjoyed my huge tangent ft. Yanmega Break!

Emskas

Wow , okay the Yanmega Break sounds as broken, but okay as the whole rotation thing would be better or for worse but could it maybe at least accept some older cards back into play like other TCG games do as not everybody can finance so much in cards personally , as it's tiring to buy packs that are worthless or base around singles that are too downright unacceptable to pay for at times :/