Discussion Card Battle Ep. 9: EXs -- Shaymin VS Jirachi

[The Poke Tactics]

Hello guys. This is my 9th CARD BATTLE thread. This is the EPIC thread episode, but before that, I would like to thank to @Otaku for suggesting this CARD BATTLE. By the way, the topic that we talked about today is about the Two EXs that were the Meta Breakers or Game Changers in the Standard Battles last 2014 until this year. These are Shaymin-EX and Jirachi-EX of the Expanded. By the way,this is the continuation of Episode 8. What these two differ based on their abilities?

Shaymin-EX - this allows you draw until you have 6 cards in your hand when this is placed from hand to bench.

Jirachi-EX - this allows you to search for a supporter when this is placed from hand to bench.

So from these two featured today, which is your best card? Share your opinions about this topic here. We will appreciate your opinions.

 

[RunningWithScizors]

As the Old El Paso Kid would say, "Why not both?"

Sometimes you need draw power, sometimes all you need is a Supporter like Lysandre or Hex Maniac or whatever. So 1 of each would be a happy medium.

 

[Otaku]

As the Old El Paso Kid would say, "Why not both?"

Sometimes you need draw power, sometimes all you need is a Supporter like Lysandre or Hex Maniac or whatever. So 1 of each would be a happy medium.

True but in a specific deck, you don't always have room for both; each of this is a poor starter, with Jirachi-EX being worse because it lacks a built-in trick to "bounce" itself should it survive long enough and you can spare the Energy attachments. You can't always bounce Shaymin-EX either and of course deck space is still at a premium.

Hmm... probably unneeded detail and pondering in spoiler tags:

Spoiler

The last several formats have been ones of extremes for a while now, and one of those extremes is "pacing"; just as Professor Juniper (and now Profesor Sycamore) meant an even greater emphasis on "disposable" hands than... actually I should be careful because I was about to suggest something not easily proven. The "shuffle-and-draw" power of Professor Oak's New Theory also rewarded disposable hands, especially after Junk Arm was added. Nearly all major forms of draw power have indeed rewarded a hand you could either easily "play down" or better still, completely "play out" because even with shuffle-and-draw effects, the fewer (currently) unneeded cards you shuffled back into your deck, the fewer (currently) unneeded cards you risked drawing over again. "Draw until you have X" effects also reward a hand you can easily shrink.

I'm trying to remember if (and if so, for how long) Professor Oak's New Theory, Junk Hunt and Uxie (DP: Legends Awakened 43/146) were contemporaries. I don't have time to look up the details and this was around the time I was returning from a hiatus, so it isn't even just hazy memories but a lack of them in the first place. The 2010-2011 format was DP: Majestic Dawn to Black &White... I vaguely remember that, I think. Didn't we have a very early, emergency rotation that year? Anyway, for the time when we had all of that, perhaps things were more rapid than we have now.

For now though an opening Professor Sycamore plus Shaymin-EX is not rare, though a super effective one can be (where you completely utilize your hand before each). Some decks are better at it than others and oh yeah, you can use multiple Shaymin-EX in a turn if you do take the risk with them, also attempt to recycle them with Super Scoop Up or augment them with other draw/search cards until you rip through your entire deck in one turn. Ugh.

Shaymin-EX is the more potent of the two; multiples of it can prove useful in a single turn even when following pretty typical deck design guidelines. I do prefer Jirachi-EX however because I find it more balanced; there was a player more skilled than myself that lamented the lack of Pokémon-based draw a la Uxie and I warned him that things would get pretty crazy if such a thing were reintroduced to Pokémon. I believe I was correct. That being said this is a format designed for it (not well designed, but it was intended) so while I don't like someone throwing half their deck at me first turn (and the power plays it brings) I also don't like drawing dead either; both of these are fantastic for turning search effects like Ultra Ball into at least potential draw power.

Stinks when all copies are Prized or your opening Pokémon, though. XD

 

[Doomdesirer]

I of course am partial to jirachi. If you need the six cards, just search out Bianca!

Jirachi EX has won me tournaments. Shaymin is too rare for me to even get one.

 

[Yo-yos]

Debunked

In expanded your average play ratio will be 2 shaymin, 2 jirachi, both or 1 jirachi/1 shaymin, standard will just be 2 shaymin. It's not what is "my" best card, it's what does better in any given format at any given time.

 

[Mora]

I of course am partial to jirachi. If you need the six cards, just search out Bianca!

Jirachi EX has won me tournaments. Shaymin is too rare for me to even get one.

But no one plays Bianca and for good reason. You can draw with Shaymin and still use a Supporter that turn. You can play four Shaymins and draw through roughly a fourth of your deck or more at once if you wanted to. Even a full Bianca for six does not compare.

A lot of decks should play both. It's easy to think they're both redundant, and it boils down to personally preference, but it really does not. A great example of a deck that really should play both is Blastoise since it absolutely needs Jirachi to search out Archie's Ace, but it also needs Shaymin so that it can potentially draw the right cards to play down the whole hand save for one card where without that option it would have been dead in the water (pun intended).

 

[WhoopsyDaisy]

It depends on your deck

First of all, if you're playing standard, you can't use Jirachi, so you have to use Shaymin or neither.

I play a deck based around PHF Gourgeist:

I want to have tons of cards in my hand. Since I never have fewer than 6 cards in my hand past the beginning of any game I have a prayer of winning, I don't have a use for Shaymin. It's useless in advantageous situations, and when I'm behind the best thing you can say is that I'll lose less hard. And since Gourgeist is awful in expanded because Darkness pokemon and N are everywhere, I wouldn't play my deck in Expanded and therefore wouldn't be able to put a Jirachi in it.

But even in a hypothetical expanded format without N or really good dark support, I still would have a hard time justifying Jirachi. The only way my deck can currently search for it is Pokemon Fan Club, which I'm considering taking out, and it's not even a great target since it puts one-turn delay on getting the supporter I DO want and telegraphs my intentions to my opponent. I wouldn't start playing Ultra Ball just for Jirachi, since it's a -3 to my hand size. Also, it's easy Lysandre bait. Like, really really easy.

But then again the Gourgeist deck is weird. I play so much card draw that it's really easy for me to have immediate access to all my 3- and 4-of's by mid game. You can't play a Shaymin or Jirachi against me when I have a Gourgeist attacking and 11 cards in my hand, because even getting to that point means seeing tons and tons and tons of cards. It's a fairly safe bet that if I have 15 cards left in my deck, I can Lysandre out your Shaymin or Jirachi and if I don't it's because I made a decision not to.

 

[Alexander Degtyarev]

Standard > Expanded, therefore Shaymin > Jirachi

Jirachi also seems to be Lysandre-killed more often. That was enough reason from to not play it before rotation either. I consider it a card for Archie/Maxie decks only.

 

[The Poke Tactics]

Its mine now. Still Shaymin is my best card. I was starting playing in TCG ONE in XY-on format,so I oftenly use Jirachi but still this is cool to use in battles.

 

[Otaku]

I wouldn't start playing Ultra Ball just for Jirachi, since it's a -3 to my hand size. Also, it's easy Lysandre bait. Like, really really easy.

What about Level Ball? One card from hand to snag one Jirachi-EX, which in turn gets you the Supporter you want for the turn. No, I am not certain you even need it, I merely offer it as a suggestion given your desire to avoid Ultra Ball... though as in Expanded you would also have access to Exeggcute (w/Propagation) and as there are many potent cards involving a discard cost, I would at least consider running Ultra Ball and two of said Exeggcute.

But then again the Gourgeist deck is weird. I play so much card draw that it's really easy for me to have immediate access to all my 3- and 4-of's by mid game. You can't play a Shaymin or Jirachi against me when I have a Gourgeist attacking and 11 cards in my hand, because even getting to that point means seeing tons and tons and tons of cards. It's a fairly safe bet that if I have 15 cards left in my deck, I can Lysandre out your Shaymin or Jirachi and if I don't it's because I made a decision not to.

Standard > Expanded, therefore Shaymin > Jirachi

Jirachi also seems to be Lysandre-killed more often. That was enough reason from to not play it before rotation either. I consider it a card for Archie/Maxie decks only.

There are two factors to consider here:

1) Decks that don't leave Jirachi-EX or Shaymin-EX benched

2) Decks that prefer you KO them instead of their much more important stuff

Having either of these two Pokémon in play is a significant risk; I've known far too many who downplay the drawback of giving up some easy Prizes. There is also the risk of opening with either of them. That is how potent these two have proven; while nothing is going to max out both of them and only certain decks max out Shaymin-EX, the net result is more wins from running them, even after factoring in these two major problems.

 

[WhoopsyDaisy]

Hm, Exeggcute isn't a bad idea. As long as they have abilities they can keep coming back to your hand. I've been considering playing Battle Compressor as a way to put Supporters where they can be VS Sought and remove tech cards I don't need for whatever matchup, and it sounds like Expanded isn't a bad place for that.

Not sure about Level Ball. The only pokemon in my current list that gets is Pumpkaboo (I tried the Eeveelutions but I found them too clunky and since I don't play Sycamore-like cards or Shauna-like cards since they limit your hand size the risk of starting with just an Eevee is too great). Maybe for Expanded I'll try the Eeveelutions build again and also put in Exeggcute and Level Ball and Ultra Ball and Jirachi and whatnot.

But yeah, I'm happy when people KO my Kangaskhan-EX's since that means they used a Lysandre and my Gourgeists get to live. Putting out more Lysandre bait isn't a bad idea since it's another incentive to avoid KOing the literal only Pokemon I care about.

 

[Alexander Degtyarev]

What about Level Ball? One card from hand to snag one Jirachi-EX, which in turn gets you the Supporter you want for the turn. No, I am not certain you even need it, I merely offer it as a suggestion given your desire to avoid Ultra Ball... though as in Expanded you would also have access to Exeggcute (w/Propagation) and as there are many potent cards involving a discard cost, I would at least consider running Ultra Ball and two of said Exeggcute.



There are two factors to consider here:

1) Decks that don't leave Jirachi-EX or Shaymin-EX benched

2) Decks that prefer you KO them instead of their much more important stuff

Having either of these two Pokémon in play is a significant risk; I've known far too many who downplay the drawback of giving up some easy Prizes. There is also the risk of opening with either of them. That is how potent these two have proven; while nothing is going to max out both of them and only certain decks max out Shaymin-EX, the net result is more wins from running them, even after factoring in these two major problems.

The problem with the Jirachi is the 90 HP. Darkrai needs a muscle band to KO Shaymin, which is usually spent on Yveltal or Zoroark or whatever attackers Tool Box may bring. Jirachi tends to be a free 4-prize turn if you previously failed to KO another EX. 110HP in general often needs that little bit extra that spread-damage moves can't always give. I've experienced this both ways often enough to disagree with your conclusions.

100+ HP tends to also be some sort of mental barrier for people playing Bats to put damage on these Pokémon, too. And finally, unless you're running Archie/Maxie, searching a supporter isn't quite as powerful as drawing cards and playing the supporter you're going to draw 8 times out of 10. Especially with VS Seeker, which combos with Compressor to make Jirachi almost entirely obsolete. I run a "Battle Seeker" engine in just about every deck I play.

 

[Otaku]

The problem with the Jirachi is the 90 HP. Darkrai needs a muscle band to KO Shaymin, which is usually spent on Yveltal or Zoroark or whatever attackers Tool Box may bring. Jirachi tends to be a free 4-prize turn if you previously failed to KO another EX. 110HP in general often needs that little bit extra that spread-damage moves can't always give. I've experienced this both ways often enough to disagree with your conclusions.

You just got really, really specific. If this was supposed to be "...on top of everything else, what about this?" okay. I read it a bit differently though: if I may coin a phrase, it seemed like you thought this was a "silver bullet point" argument that would put my side down and keep it down. XD

Yes it is true; Jirachi-EX is easier to KO than Shaymin-EX, barring things like Weakness and Resistance. Darkrai-EX isn't an attacker in every deck and in the decks where it is, it may have other means up boosting its damage. For example while grinding out the last of the VS Ladder Rewards (or whatever it is called on the PTCGO) I had a Shaymin-EX KOed through Hypnotoxic Laser + Virbank City Gym + Night Spear. I also more than once used or faced someone using a Darkrai-EX that had Muscle Band attached. The fact that 90 HP is even more vulnerable than 110 HP isn't in significant, but it also isn't huge. Your opponent can get a "four Prize turn" in more than one way... but the method you listed required that he or she failed to score a OHKO on another turn. If my opponent scores 4 Prizes on a single turn instead of two Prizes per turn for two turns, it is only in some messy details (like drawing more off of an N than they otherwise would have) that proves relevant.

100+ HP tends to also be some sort of mental barrier for people playing Bats to put damage on these Pokémon, too. And finally, unless you're running Archie/Maxie, searching a supporter isn't quite as powerful as drawing cards and playing the supporter you're going to draw 8 times out of 10. Especially with VS Seeker, which combos with Compressor to make Jirachi almost entirely obsolete. I run a "Battle Seeker" engine in just about every deck I play.

If people have some sort of "mental barrier" about putting damage counters on something with 100+ HP, that's a problem with those players. It isn't "general wisdom" when playing the deck. You evaluate what is most likely to help you win the game. Usually that means focusing on the Pokémon with the lowest remaining HP.

Battle Compressor + VS Seeker is a potent combo, but that doesn't mean Jirachi-EX is obsolete. Different things block them: Jirachi-EX can still get you the Supporter you want even when Items are being locked down, though of course does nothing when Abilities are being negated. VS Seeker is much more difficult to search from your deck than Jirachi-EX; if Items are working, then Level Ball => Jirachi-EX => Supporter of your choice. If your deck can't justify Level Ball, then replace with "Ultra Ball + two card discard from hand". Getting into fringe territory (meaning I know this does not apply often), sometimes you will need all the uses of a particular card that you can get. The big thing is that Battle Compressor + VS Seeker is a minimum three card combo to get the Supporter you want from deck to hand, while Jirachi-EX is just two cards (yes the Supporter being searched out counts). If I don't already have Battle Compressor or VS Seeker in hand, I can't even hope to draw the other on my next turn... or I can, but that probably means I just used my Supporter for the turn so my plans are moved a turn ahead.

 

[Alexander Degtyarev]

I see the concept of examples is foreign to you.

In general terms, more Pokemon can hit 90 easily compared to hitting 110 easily.

 

[Otaku]

I see the concept of examples is foreign to you.

In general terms, more Pokemon can hit 90 easily compared to hitting 110 easily.

Yes... the fact that I often write overly long posts full of examples, to the point where it is a common criticism of my writings† shows that the concept of "examples" is foreign to me... or were you being sarcastic? It doesn't read that way but it wouldn't be the first time I've missed it.

Regardless, let me ask you: do you know the difference between "providing examples" and "proving a hypothesis"? How about concepts like "relevance" and "net gain"?

No, really. I'm not trying to be a jerk about it. As I tried to point out, not all factors are equally relevant. More Pokémon can rapidly, reliably and repeatedly hit for 90 points of damage than 110, however the difference is small. Not so small as to be negligible, but there are few that can only take down Jirachi-EX as compared to attackers can rapidly, reliably and repeatedly hit for 110+ points of damage (so as to OHKO either of these).

In all of those cases, both of these cards are easy OHKOs. They offer tremendous benefit which is why they see successful use in competitive play. I am not dismissing the risk, I am putting it into perspective.

†No, really: I was banned from another Pokémon message board for this reason.

 

[Alexander Degtyarev]

My point is that the difference is large enough for it to be worth it for anything short of Archie and Maxie. No other supporter needs it enough to warrant it, considering we can safely run up to 4 VS Seekers and Battle Compressors, and Ultra Ball for Shaymin to draw into either of those with a high degree of reliability. And if we run a modest 2 Shaymin, that's going to make Jirachi take up a 3rd bench space. Though you might get away with it if you can find the space to run a set of Super Scoop-up, but I'd rather dedicate that space to 4 Trainers' Mail because with Shaymin and the various trainer cards I mentioned you pretty much get all the supporters you want in addition to decent card draw, as opposed to merely the supporter.

 

[Otaku]

My point is that the difference is large enough for it to be worth it for anything short of Archie and Maxie. No other supporter needs it enough to warrant it, considering we can safely run up to 4 VS Seekers and Battle Compressors, and Ultra Ball for Shaymin to draw into either of those with a high degree of reliability. And if we run a modest 2 Shaymin, that's going to make Jirachi take up a 3rd bench space. Though you might get away with it if you can find the space to run a set of Super Scoop-up, but I'd rather dedicate that space to 4 Trainers' Mail because with Shaymin and the various trainer cards I mentioned you pretty much get all the supporters you want in addition to decent card draw, as opposed to merely the supporter.

When you take the time to make a well written reply, your position is much more persuasive. I'm not completely convinced, but at least I think I have a better idea of where to take the discussion.

• You haven't actually demonstrated that the HP the primary or even secondary reason to forgo Jirachi-EX. On the other hand you have brought up better arguments for favoring Shaymin-EX over Jirachi-EX.
• Archie's Ace in the Hole is a key play in the deck that won Worlds while Maxie's Hidden Ball Trick has been important to other top decks; most examples where I have seen Jirachi-EX used well do indeed include those cards. Not enough that I am convinced that is the only time to run it, but where I cannot thoroughly refute the claim. In builds running it for said cards, when I use Jirachi-EX it is usually for a different Supporter than either of those two; the shuffle-and-draw Supporter when I've got three or four Professor Sycamore in hand (especially early game), a clutch Lysandre, etc.
• Tying into this, no not every deck runs four Battle Compressor. I'd need to review the actual winners from the Autumn Regionals to see if any totally lacked it, but at least some only run one or two.
• The other drawback of the Battle Compressor trick is that you do burn whatever Supporter you need and in the lists that need Battle Compressor for a different reason, you get stuck splitting your deck thinning resource. I've been testing some of the winning lists and the ones with maxed out Battle Compressor are often things like Night March where yes you can (and often enough will) toss a Supporter to recycle with your VS Seeker but sometimes that trade off backfires when you realize you use this combo but you really needed that discard for another Night Marcher or your Supporter/VS Seeker count comes up a bit short from using it on this. Night March is one of the decks using Jirachi-EX for Maxie's Hidden Ball Trick where I find myself often using Jirachi-EX for something else instead...
• ...if I use Jirachi-EX at all; with either of these you do have the option of skipping them, at least some of the time.
• I guess I consider one Shaymin-EX modest, two the default, three heavy and four extra heavy or "dependent" or "core" or however you wish to describe what is now an important part of your deck, a la Colorless M Rayquaza-EX decks.
• Super Scoop Up or Sky Field; the bittersweet lesson many an opponent learns is that they will have the choice between keeping a Jirachi-EX in play long enough to exploit it or taking away the larger Bench the deck is running Sky Field for in the first place. Plus of course with extra Bench space, Jirachi-EX being there in the first place is less of a concern.
• Lock decks; you don't really address this probably because (if my own experience isn't completely abnormal) they currently wax and wane in overall power. When they are more prominent, Shaymin-EX carries a higher risk of being a dead draw because you've got too many of whatever is being locked clogging up your hand for Setup to draw much (including failing to draw anything at all).

To be clear, I do consider Shaymin-EX to be the stronger of the two; I just don't see Jirachi-EX as being the lesser by as large of a margin as you are... assuming of course I have not horribly misunderstood what you are saying. The low HP for both cards is at the point where giving or taking another 20 HP doesn't mean much. If Shaymin-EX had only 90 HP it would probably be seen as a better: while one often thins one's own hand with Ultra Ball to help with Setup, there are many times I wish I could just Level Ball for it.