Chandelure - Speed or Trainerlock?
- Thread starter Shun
- Start date
If you don't have tropical beach, it's not worth it. IMO the Speed version is more consistent. It's easier to set up 2 Stage 2's and a Stage 1, than 3 Stages 2's and a Stage 1, more with blissey. The Locking version has better match ups across the board, but the Speed version is better imo.
Trainer Lock. If your opponent can one-shot a Chandelure, you lose. With Dragons and PlusPower running around, thats not hard. With a Trainer Lock up, its impossible unless you face Magnezone.
venasour x said:
For this exact reason, I play 4 Defenders in my speed version. It really has SUCH a good matchup against ReshiPhlosion since you can take out their Typhlosions while tanking hits and healing them off with Max Potion. Although it has alot of trouble with Zekrom sometimes, I really like this deck and hope I can somehow get/borrow the tropical beaches I need for it.
If you have alot of ZPST in your area, I think the locking version is better, due to the fact that Trainer Lock usually beats ZPST (barring a T1-T2 donk) once set up. However, if you can get a very consistent list that sets up 9/10 games you can beat ZPST just by tanking it out.
It also depends on your play style. If you like playing google, then the trainer lock version is probably more for you. Personally, my favorite deck from DP-on was Kingdra, and I've always played swarm decks (Gyarados, Speedrill, etc) so the speed version is more for me.
It also depends on your play style. If you like playing google, then the trainer lock version is probably more for you. Personally, my favorite deck from DP-on was Kingdra, and I've always played swarm decks (Gyarados, Speedrill, etc) so the speed version is more for me.
I suppose playstyle does play a role in the decision. For example, I like to play the most controlled game possible, where I can basically list every card my opponent can play. Therefore, I'm a huge fan of trainer lock decks, and I wouldn't even consider not playing that version. Other people won't even consider the locking version.
The thing about Speed Chandelure is that it isn't fast, definitely go with the Trainer Lock, even if you don't own Tropical Bench. Trainer Lock gives you the ability to lock out Pluspowers, Catchers, and Max Potions, all things that can potentially wreck Chandelure. Speed Chandelure is much worse, because your opponent will outspeed anyways, and hurt you with early game OHKO's with Pluspowers. Dodrios and damaged Chandelures getting Catcher killed isn't fun either. Vileplume stops those threats, and can make it hard for your opponent to set up again after a bench tech is killed.
About what is the average amount of tropical beaches used?
I've personally never played the deck, but I have played against it quite a bit. I would take a guess that 2-3 would be the best amount, of course, this isn't going to be possible for a lot of players. If another disagrees, I would like to hear your recommended amount, this is just my educated guess.
2-3 is best. If you also want to be able to eat and have a warm place to sleep at night, I'd suggest two.
Because the deck runs Twins, it's not particularly hard to get it out with only two, and honestly that's probably the best number anyway, since multiple copies are useless except for consistency. Some players will opt to run three, just to get it out as quickly as possible. However, I haven't found that to be a necessity.
That second sentence deserves some awesome sand. ~Futachimaru
Because the deck runs Twins, it's not particularly hard to get it out with only two, and honestly that's probably the best number anyway, since multiple copies are useless except for consistency. Some players will opt to run three, just to get it out as quickly as possible. However, I haven't found that to be a necessity.
That second sentence deserves some awesome sand. ~Futachimaru
Between wether the Speed version or the Trainer locking version is better, the answer is quite simple: it depends on what you prefer. Of course, this can not only vary from your own preference, but also from your metagame. Is your meta trainer heavy? Is your meta full of slower decks? Is your meta a scrambled egg type of meta where anything is possible? Just asking plain out of the box ''which is better'' will never get you a direct answer. About X% will say ''Go for speed!'', while X% will say ''Go for the lock!''. That won't get you anywhere Im afraid.
When choosing between a few options, consider what your ''game rules'' are. By ''game rules'' I mean look at what you will face. Is Durant big in your meta? Probably swap most of your Junipers for Professor Oak's New Theory, and you'd better pack some Flower Shop Lady and/or Super Rod. Are you facing a lot of trainer locking decks? Try to outspeed them, or play as less trainers as possible. Is Reshiram big in your area? Probably bring a Water type tech, and watch out to play low HP attackers. The list goes on and on, and there really is no ''correct way'' to play a deck when you choose between two options. The thing that comes closest to a ''correct deck'' is a deck that suits you. Instead of asking others on what performs better, think about what YOU would like to play? Do you like locking decks? Are you the type of person who wants ''board control'', or are you more interested in rushing your deck on the field? Are you oblivious for what your opponent throws at you, and will you simply smack it off the field no matter what? You will have to see for yourself what suits you the best, and build your deck according to it.
To get back to your question, both have their pro's and cons.
While Trainer Lock Chandelure offers you a more timid setting to setup, it also blocks you from useful cards like Rare Candy and Pokémon Communication. Tropical Beach really is a must in this version, otherwise you'll be stuck just as jammed as your opponent. On the other hand, because you include Vileplume you won't have to worry about OHKO's as much, as well as Pokémon Catcher. Usually Dodrio UD finds itself in this list as well, as it means everything (depending on what you put in it) will have free retreat on your side of the field. Your main focus will be Chandelure, Vileplume, and Dodrio. Because the deck is hampered a little by your own trainer denial, Kingdra Prime often won't find a spot in here (or at least not too big of a line). I find the main way to play this deck is to annoy your opponent to no end with the Trainer Lock, and keep spreading. Since your opponent can't play Max potion, remind you can't do so either! Therefore, a also strongly advice a 1-1 Blissey Prime line at the least (a 2-1 to 2-2 line would be even better if you can fit it in). Wether you add Reuniclus to this already ''chuncky'' deck is up to you (while you could add Reuniclus instead of Blissey, you should pair Reuniclus with some Seeker, which can work in your disadvantage if your opponent gets to bounce a damaged pokémon as well!).
On the other end, the Speed version can rush into multiple Stage 2's in a short amount of time, but leaving the option of Trainers open, your opponent can match that speed (or even outspeed you!). While you can (ab)use your trainers like Rare Candy, Pokémon Communication, Switch, Pokémon Catcher, etc etc, so can your opponent. Your techs run the risk of getting dragged up front by Pokémon Catcher, or your opponent can nullify your damage attempts by spamming Max Potions and the likes. Of course any deck not using Trainer Lock faces these problems, so you'll just have to learn to compensate for those cons. Because the Speed version can (ab)use Rare Candy, usually Kingdra Prime can be found heavily in this list (which not only helps Chandelure as a whole with damage, it also helps speeding the deck up a lot). Despite being an extremely rare combo, I've even seen Chandelure being paired with Archeops to prevent evolution and snag some easy prizes on ''weak'' basics (I strongly advice against this combo, but if you want to try it, don't let anyone discourage you!). Speed Chandelure also has more flexible options to tech into the deck, but to me this flexibillity isn't more useful than Trainer Lock.
To sum it up, here are some idea's which could go in any Chandelure build, regardless of what way you'll swing the list.
Jirachi UL/CoL will help you in any ''evolving'' matchup late in the game. The main problem Jirachi might be facing in your deck is that you might not have enough energy in your deck/discard to justify using it in your list. One or two copies are more than enough, even moreso because it also means you could have a bad start with it. Choose wisely though; while Jirachi can be a game saver sometimes, it could cost you greatly as well!
While often forgotten, and mainly judged ''too useless'', Solrock TM and any Lunatone can prevent your opponent from healing any damage. Note that the ''healing lock'' also applies to you, and you're sacrificing two bench spaces to keep it up as well. Not the best of options available, but something fun to try out if you feel like it.
Darkrai&Cresselia LEGEND is also a considerable option for the deck, but mainly if you include Twins in your Trainer Lock build, or run the Speed version (where it can be searched out with the help of Pokémon Communication and the likes). While most people look no further than Moon's Invite, a friend of mine made a few adjustments to his list to also have the option to use Lost Crisis as well. While it might not look as much, this came as quite a surprise when testing against my Gothitelle deck! He had the option to either take multiple prizes with Moon's Invite, but instead he chose to snipe my Reuniclus, meaning I was seriously hampered when facing the ghostly lamp. Of course this is like a ''best case scenario'', but don't forget the possibillity is there...! And then again, when isn't it nice to catch your opponent off-guard?
While not all that populair, Ampharos Prime deserves a mentioning here. Of course it's situational, and your opponent will know where the damage lands, there's still nothing they can do about it! While Ampharos is extremely useful against decks which feature Emboar or Feraligatr Prime, Ampharos is just deadweight against anything like CaKE and/or ReshiPhlosion. You could see Ampharos as a more restricted Kingdra Prime, which is ideal if you're on a budget or simply can't get some Kingdra Prime's.
Of course you could take a different take on Chandelure as well, and combine it with one of the most populair Ghost types of all time; Gengar (Prime). While it takes a lot of switching in and out, as well as even more setup, you will eventually open up the option to Lost Zone multiple of your opponent's pokémonin one go. The combo's here should be self-explandatory, and I won't go into detail here (of course Chandelure could be a tech into Gengar decks as well).
Absol Prime can be seen as a starter option, as it will help you by putting an instant 2 damage counters on any basic your opponent benches from his/her hand. Unfortunately all the good news ends there as well, as Absol boosts a different type of energy to be useful to you, and while it's up there in your Active position, your Chandelure(s) can't do anything for you. A nice starter option to take into consideration, but to me the payoff isn't worth the trouble it gives you (of course the mirror match is an exception!).
Well then, I suppose I could give you a sample list of Chandelure, but since you still aren't fully sure on what to use, I simply don't know what to sample for you...! So for now, this is all!
Good luck!
[/sand=James]
When choosing between a few options, consider what your ''game rules'' are. By ''game rules'' I mean look at what you will face. Is Durant big in your meta? Probably swap most of your Junipers for Professor Oak's New Theory, and you'd better pack some Flower Shop Lady and/or Super Rod. Are you facing a lot of trainer locking decks? Try to outspeed them, or play as less trainers as possible. Is Reshiram big in your area? Probably bring a Water type tech, and watch out to play low HP attackers. The list goes on and on, and there really is no ''correct way'' to play a deck when you choose between two options. The thing that comes closest to a ''correct deck'' is a deck that suits you. Instead of asking others on what performs better, think about what YOU would like to play? Do you like locking decks? Are you the type of person who wants ''board control'', or are you more interested in rushing your deck on the field? Are you oblivious for what your opponent throws at you, and will you simply smack it off the field no matter what? You will have to see for yourself what suits you the best, and build your deck according to it.
To get back to your question, both have their pro's and cons.
While Trainer Lock Chandelure offers you a more timid setting to setup, it also blocks you from useful cards like Rare Candy and Pokémon Communication. Tropical Beach really is a must in this version, otherwise you'll be stuck just as jammed as your opponent. On the other hand, because you include Vileplume you won't have to worry about OHKO's as much, as well as Pokémon Catcher. Usually Dodrio UD finds itself in this list as well, as it means everything (depending on what you put in it) will have free retreat on your side of the field. Your main focus will be Chandelure, Vileplume, and Dodrio. Because the deck is hampered a little by your own trainer denial, Kingdra Prime often won't find a spot in here (or at least not too big of a line). I find the main way to play this deck is to annoy your opponent to no end with the Trainer Lock, and keep spreading. Since your opponent can't play Max potion, remind you can't do so either! Therefore, a also strongly advice a 1-1 Blissey Prime line at the least (a 2-1 to 2-2 line would be even better if you can fit it in). Wether you add Reuniclus to this already ''chuncky'' deck is up to you (while you could add Reuniclus instead of Blissey, you should pair Reuniclus with some Seeker, which can work in your disadvantage if your opponent gets to bounce a damaged pokémon as well!).
On the other end, the Speed version can rush into multiple Stage 2's in a short amount of time, but leaving the option of Trainers open, your opponent can match that speed (or even outspeed you!). While you can (ab)use your trainers like Rare Candy, Pokémon Communication, Switch, Pokémon Catcher, etc etc, so can your opponent. Your techs run the risk of getting dragged up front by Pokémon Catcher, or your opponent can nullify your damage attempts by spamming Max Potions and the likes. Of course any deck not using Trainer Lock faces these problems, so you'll just have to learn to compensate for those cons. Because the Speed version can (ab)use Rare Candy, usually Kingdra Prime can be found heavily in this list (which not only helps Chandelure as a whole with damage, it also helps speeding the deck up a lot). Despite being an extremely rare combo, I've even seen Chandelure being paired with Archeops to prevent evolution and snag some easy prizes on ''weak'' basics (I strongly advice against this combo, but if you want to try it, don't let anyone discourage you!). Speed Chandelure also has more flexible options to tech into the deck, but to me this flexibillity isn't more useful than Trainer Lock.
To sum it up, here are some idea's which could go in any Chandelure build, regardless of what way you'll swing the list.
Jirachi UL/CoL will help you in any ''evolving'' matchup late in the game. The main problem Jirachi might be facing in your deck is that you might not have enough energy in your deck/discard to justify using it in your list. One or two copies are more than enough, even moreso because it also means you could have a bad start with it. Choose wisely though; while Jirachi can be a game saver sometimes, it could cost you greatly as well!
While often forgotten, and mainly judged ''too useless'', Solrock TM and any Lunatone can prevent your opponent from healing any damage. Note that the ''healing lock'' also applies to you, and you're sacrificing two bench spaces to keep it up as well. Not the best of options available, but something fun to try out if you feel like it.
Darkrai&Cresselia LEGEND is also a considerable option for the deck, but mainly if you include Twins in your Trainer Lock build, or run the Speed version (where it can be searched out with the help of Pokémon Communication and the likes). While most people look no further than Moon's Invite, a friend of mine made a few adjustments to his list to also have the option to use Lost Crisis as well. While it might not look as much, this came as quite a surprise when testing against my Gothitelle deck! He had the option to either take multiple prizes with Moon's Invite, but instead he chose to snipe my Reuniclus, meaning I was seriously hampered when facing the ghostly lamp. Of course this is like a ''best case scenario'', but don't forget the possibillity is there...! And then again, when isn't it nice to catch your opponent off-guard?
While not all that populair, Ampharos Prime deserves a mentioning here. Of course it's situational, and your opponent will know where the damage lands, there's still nothing they can do about it! While Ampharos is extremely useful against decks which feature Emboar or Feraligatr Prime, Ampharos is just deadweight against anything like CaKE and/or ReshiPhlosion. You could see Ampharos as a more restricted Kingdra Prime, which is ideal if you're on a budget or simply can't get some Kingdra Prime's.
Of course you could take a different take on Chandelure as well, and combine it with one of the most populair Ghost types of all time; Gengar (Prime). While it takes a lot of switching in and out, as well as even more setup, you will eventually open up the option to Lost Zone multiple of your opponent's pokémonin one go. The combo's here should be self-explandatory, and I won't go into detail here (of course Chandelure could be a tech into Gengar decks as well).
Absol Prime can be seen as a starter option, as it will help you by putting an instant 2 damage counters on any basic your opponent benches from his/her hand. Unfortunately all the good news ends there as well, as Absol boosts a different type of energy to be useful to you, and while it's up there in your Active position, your Chandelure(s) can't do anything for you. A nice starter option to take into consideration, but to me the payoff isn't worth the trouble it gives you (of course the mirror match is an exception!).
Well then, I suppose I could give you a sample list of Chandelure, but since you still aren't fully sure on what to use, I simply don't know what to sample for you...! So for now, this is all!
Good luck!
[/sand=James]
venasour x said:
or a badboar too
I'm having a bit of trouble with my list of Chandelure. Im currently using the Speed Version, with 4-2-4 Chandelure, 3-3 Dodrio, and 3 Cleffa. I'm having a problem though with mulligans, which I happen to get a lot of. I was thinking of teching in either Zoroark BW or Cincinno BW to get more basics, and provide for late game hitters that each only use 1 energy (DCE). Tropical Beach may clash with this, but both of these cards are more situational/late game cards than something I'd be using early/mid game. Rocky Helmet which is already in my deck helps both of these options out either way, so there's a pro right there.
If I was to add these in, it'd be 2-2 of either of them, and 2 (3?) DCE. Let me know if you guys think this might be an ok idea
If I was to add these in, it'd be 2-2 of either of them, and 2 (3?) DCE. Let me know if you guys think this might be an ok idea
I think I found your issue there. I'd suggest adding the Vileplume in over some filler attacker, unless it's a major conflict for your playstyle. You're not going to win much with the speed version.Zorua said:I'm having a bit of trouble with my list of Chandelure. Im currently using the Speed Version, with 4-2-4 Chandelure, 3-3 Dodrio, and 3 Cleffa. I'm having a problem though with mulligans, which I happen to get a lot of. I was thinking of teching in either Zoroark BW or Cincinno BW to get more basics, and provide for late game hitters that each only use 1 energy (DCE). Tropical Beach may clash with this, but both of these cards are more situational/late game cards than something I'd be using early/mid game. Rocky Helmet which is already in my deck helps both of these options out either way, so there's a pro right there.
If I was to add these in, it'd be 2-2 of either of them, and 2 (3?) DCE. Let me know if you guys think this might be an ok idea
Blissey and Jirachi are probably better options than a filler attacker, too, even without the trainer lock. You shouldn't really be having a problem with mulligans anyway, since 10 basics should get you one basic in every six cards on average.
Celebi23 said:
Is Tropical Beach usable under Trainer-Lock, assuming its in play before Vileplume gets put out? If it is, I might experiment and see what works. Otherwise, I'll probably stick to this. Zoroark actually works quite well, so I might keep him in there.