Competitive Battling in the 5th Generation

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Elk-Dimension

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So, most of the good discussion about this is happening on Smogon, but I figure we may as well try to talk here. How do you think Competitive play will work in the fifth generation? Is Ononokusu's Dragon STAB, base 147 ATK, and access to DD and SD ruin the game and lead to another banning? Will Nintales's and Politoad's new weather-bringing Dream World abilities shoot them past OU and straight from NU to Uber? And what of the two new Pokemon utilizing Shadow Tag? Will locking and trapping be a huge new play? Discuss!
NOTE: ONLY COMPETITIVE TALK. Also, thanks to bacon's great idea, please post any and all predictions about 5th gen competitive play!
 
Simply put, the metagame will be terrible. Encourage is an overpowered ability, and Ononokusu and Sazando are just plain ridiculous when it comes to offensive prowess (the former for the reasons you mentioned, the latter thanks to 98 Base Speed, 125 Base SAt and good Offensive/Defensive typing). In addition, there are no walls capable of handing those threats, especially when you consider Stall is unviable with Defog working like Rapid Spin and without its premier Spin blocker, since Rotom Formes lost their Ghost type. Moreover, they went further and decided to give 90% of the Pokemon in the game a new Ability, and more often than not, an overpowered one, such as the weather changers you mentioned.

All in all, this generation did not improve offense - it rose it to the level defense is simply not viable anymore. Its a big disappointment for me, and makes me wish it hadn't gone further than 4th gen.
 
This generation is definitely going to change the competitive arena, not only are we getting Raintoad, and Suntails, but we also get a large amount of heavy hitters that either have more rounded Defenses, or more Speed, or much higher Attack stats than most in previous Generations can boast. There are a few things I predict to happen, a great insurgence of walls, a few bans, or unbans depending on how the community reacts, and a lot more tanks, like Shubarugo.
 
It's quite hard to imagine the stall playstyle surviving, and following the traditions of previous generations, the game is going to develop into something yet more offensive. But hey, we all knew that already. So to make this post a little more interesting, I'm going to post three predictions of what I think will happen in the metagame when it develops. It would be cool if others did the same, that way in about a year we can all look back at this thread and see how right/wrong we were.

Prediction 1: Tyranitar will be the most used Pokemon

Tyranitar has always been a top tier Pokemon, but now it seems that his Sand Stream ability is more useful than ever. With the ability to stop Rain and Sun in its tracks, as well as powering up very hard hitters such as the mole and Landras the Ground/Flying legend, it could prove to be an almost invaluable asset to any team. Tyranitar's offensive and defensive prowess allows it to work in all playstyles, and his versatility should allow him to function well in a metagame with uncountable threats to be addressed.

Prediction 2: Politoed and Ninetales are not broken!

Yeah, yeah, auto weather does sound scary, and without a doubt both Drizzle and Drought fall into the top 5 abilities in the entire game. But let's not forget that apart from their abilities, these guys are more or less dead weight given the type of team they function on-- Neither can support the team with screens or entry hazards like, say, 4th gen Azelf could. Nor do either of them pose much of an offensive threat (even with the weather boost), although I suppose Ninetales has the option of boosting its very lackluster base 81 Satk stat with Nasty Plot. Attacks such as Sandstorm and Hail exist, so even if Rain and Sun become popular playstyles, they're always easy to keep in check.

Prediction 3: Ononokusu (the base 147 atk Dragon) will be underwhelming

147 atk, pure Dragon, 97 Speed sounds absolutely nuts, but really the furthest this guy will get is mid-OU. The reason being that the metagame is going to become so absolutely offensive. Ononokusu will have difficulty finding the time to set up attacks with its lackluster defenses (76/90/70. As far as frail sweepers go, this ranks on Infernape and Weavile levels). And even if it does set up, it will always be revenge killed by anything with 100 base Speed and a Choice Scarf... and with all the offensive threats running around, you can be absolutely certain that Scarf is an item that will see a lot of play. It's a lot like Marowak and Rampardos-- Being walled isn't the problem, it's being revenge killed.
 
The thing I'm worried about with Ononokusu is that we have no confimation that Scarf will be in the game. I mean, there's no real reason it wouldn't be, but we don't know yet. I do agree that it is a bit overhyped. Your DrizzleToad/DroughtTales prediction is pure truth. Ok, I'll do some.

Prediction #1: The Mole is gonna rock.
With two great abilities, cool typing, and amazing base stats (88 Spe/133 ATK if I remember correctly), this thing is a threat. Its two abilities work great with T-Tar/Hippowdon, with Sand Power doubling its STAB power and Sand Throw doubling its Speed in Sandstorm. The lack of a good Steel type physical move hurts it, but it's still gonna be beast.

Prediction #2: Reduced Focus on Entry Hazards
Stealth Rock is no longer a TM. Stealth Rock was pretty easily the best move in the game. It's probably still breedable, and we don't know about Move Tutors, but this alone puts less focus on entry hazards. If I remember correctly from Smogon, very few Pokemon learn Spikes or Toxic Spikes. That's another reason Stall is hurt.

Prediction #3: The Dream World Abilities Will Really Take Getting Used To
Your opponent sends in a Gliscor. Every instinct from your 4th gen training tells you to Toxic it. Don't. Gliscor now gets Poison heal, allowing it to gain 12.5% health every turn under Poison. What about Hydration Vaporeon? When combo'd with Toad, it get's auto full-healing. Or Speed Boost Blaziken, which many say will completely replace Infernape? Many of the Dream World abilities are so good, people already say they're broken (like Shadow Tag Chandelier)! THere is a down side. You can't breed Dream World abilities, and with the changed TM list, that could trouble some Pokemon. That Poison Heal GLiscor no longer gets Roost, unless it's a Move TUtor.

So yeah, that's what I'm calling. I'll add prediction requests to the OP.
 
Before we get the rants of how broken everything is, nothing is broken if everything is broken. I find this generation to be pushing the limits of our current metagame, and making the 5th generation's metagame focus highly on offense. Yet having so many swift and bulky sweepers i see this Generation focus on different aspects of offense and there will be more diversity and niches that Pokémon will fill. Just going to touch on some subjects, like bacon did, only i am not a psychic, so no predictions. :>

1. Sandstorm is as good as Rain/Sun now, Tyranitar is King.
With new users and inducers weather will be a force to be reckoned with. Yet the people who start to lay the ban hammer on Politoad and Ninetails has to realize now that Sandstorm is as potent as each. Not only is Tyranitar and Hippwodon bulkier than Politoad and Ninetails, they are coupled with a bunch of new sweepers that are to Sandstorm as Swift Swimmers are to Rain. Specifically Doryuzuu (Ground/Steel), and Landros (Ground/Flying), who both can abuse the sand (Doryuzuu base 176 Spe in Sand, access to Swords Dance) and coupled with Tyranitar can become a core to Sandstorm teams along with Rock Pokémon gaining a Special Defdense boost, importantly the Rock/Fighting legendary. Did I mention Sandstorm also does damage each turn?

2. The only thing that is broken is you.
"omg 147 base attack is going to break the metagame!!!! BROKEN! UBER!"
No, first off what metagame? 4th gen and 5th gen are completely different because frankly, one has yet to even begin. The 5th gen could have massive Mechanic Changes, this could be another Ramparados, we just don't know, but two Pokémon buzzing around forums are:
-Ononokusu is one of the over hyped Pokémon that are entering the scene, yet it is doomed to just miss the Awesome Sweeper bar. Paper Defenses, 97 Speed, nails in the coffin already, but who knows, it will have it's niche.
-Shanderaa is also seen as a Pokémon doomed to be scrutinized due to its dream world ability of Shadow Tag. I don't see how this is any different than steels were to Magnezone besides being able to trap everything, though it can't out stall Blissey carrying Toxic, it Is weak to Aqua Jet, it is screwed by U-turn and Shed Shell, some Pokémon will have to redefine their roles much like Salamances ban and the influx of Heatran. As long as Gamefreak isn't a troll, and this thing doesn't get Perish Song I am quite fine, this could possilby be the end to some Pokémon running Bands or running Fighting/Normal moves.

3. Whatever you want on your team could possibly flow well.
You could say this now, but running things like Altaria over Dragonite can only be backed up with the Different niches each occupy. With the Dream World plus new Items, there is promise that you could run anything you like because some niches are no longer overlapping between two Pokémon. Why run Crawdawnt? Adaptability + Dragon Dance + Rain. Why run Blaziken rather than Infernape? Speed Boost. Though this is a bit general (Caterpie + Magikarp Team!) Old Pokémon are now being put into the OU equation which could result in less overcentralization, but there will always be some centralization.
 
As an ubers player I have one prediction:
Ubers will be changed more by nonlegends rather than legends. All these unique abilities and great stats make many pokemon viable in ubers. Reshiram and Zekrom are rather stale by uber standards with their average (for ubers) stats and unless they have creative movesets thy will just be like a bad Kyogre/Groudon with mold breaker.
 
I think on a conceptual level, Black and White will, like their predecessors force a lot of people to redefine their notions of what competitive battling is entirely. I've already seen a ton of people running their mouths off that "Politoed and Nintetales are broken!," "these base stats are too good -- UBER!," or what have you, but before we obsess over movesets, tiers, etc., people should realize that because some Pokémon are making significant gains, or new ones are being introduced with seemingly insane power (keep in mind that throughout this we are only playing Theorymon), it's not that the Pokémon themselves are broken, nor is it the metagame -- it's standards that are being raised, its a new bar that is being set. What once people deemed as "uber" could now be the new "OU"; likewise what was once OU could now be the new UU, and so on. But like Phazon-764 said, who are we to assume that a familiar metagame is even going to exist at all! As some new system begins to materialize, people are going to have let go of a Generation IV mindset/bias, possibly erase it completely, and approach Black and White with a completely fresh slate -- that's what I find so exciting about this. It's the perfect metaphor for what's occurred between every competitive generation -- CHANGE.
 
Obviously, flying types will (for the first time) gain prominence in OU. With Politoad and Ludicolo becoming staples, the best weakness to manipulate is obviously flying (or bug). Not only will flying moves be far more common, Machamp will lose it's power because of them. And what of the move Boiling water? If it is a TM and boasts a power around that of surf, it will replace it. Imagine if whenever your opponent on Shoddy used surf, you got burned. Yeah, it's that scary. This is my first time adapting to an entire new generational metagame, but I feel I'm pretty accurate.
Monkey, out.
 
Kevin Garrett said:
bacon said:
Prediction 1: Tyranitar will be the most used Pokemon
Click to expand...
That's what they said for DP.
Click to expand...

Well, they weren't too far from the truth.

And honestly, this is looking very, funky to say the least. I'm a bit excited to see what is going to be top tier, and what isn't. I'd like to see the green blob thing with magic guard (too cool to memorize names) get some OU useage. Oh, and those fighting legends, their stats appear promising.
 
I don't think Tyranitar will be #1 in usage ever. There are a lot of good Water- and Fighting-type Pokemon coming out, especially the legendary quad of the latter. Not to mention Justice Heart on them that completely absorbs Dark-type attacks and raises their own attack. There are top tier DPP Pokemon that get it through Dream World as well (Ie: Lucario). No doubt it will be top tier, but not #1.
 
Desukun (Egyptian Sarcophagus Pokemon) is going to turn the metagame on it's head. Mummy ruins strategies based on Abilities, counters Machamp by getting rid of No Guard, among other shenanigans.
 
Desukun is a glorified dusknoir, who is a poor choice next to Spiritomb and the new Water/Ghost in my opinion. Looking at its move pool, which is poor imo, I don't see it making that much of impact. I'd rather use Dusknoir over Desukun if only because it has no way to heal outside of Rest and Sleep Talk is not even a TM anymore. At the very least, Dusknoir has Pain Split.
 
@Kevin

Yeah that makes more sense. x]

@Pride/Card Slinger J

Seriously? No Sleep Talk TM? ;___; We can only hope for a sleep talk move tutor, :[ that thing looks way too cool to not be good, c'mon.
 
Machamp won't be countered because it won't be there. If you read my earlier post, you'd know that it will quickly lose efficiency because of the return of flight.
But I have to admit, Mummy will be just plain annoying! But it is only physical and since Machamp can't attack it with fighting attacks, it doesn't matter.
I agree, Spiritomb rocks. I developed a SubCurseSplit lead for it that can taunt, and the substitute, curse, and then painsplit to heal.
 
With Grass Types making a comeback, I think Poison will be a reliable attacking type...
 
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