Discussion Crimson Invasion - The Rogue Deck Set?

HouchinsDJ

HouchinsDJ

Aspiring Trainer
Member
So Crimson Invasion as a whole seems to be underwhelming. All of the GXs, besides Buzzwole, seem unplayable from a competitive standpoint. Silvally has potential, but until we get more Memory cards, I just don't see it being too viable at the moment. What I have noticed though is that this set seems to have some decent rogue deck potential. The new Gengar is crazy good, especially if you pair it with it's Creep Show counterpart. I played the new Gengar at a prerelease yesterday and the damage adds up fast. Pair that with Po Town and Espeon EX, and I think you have a really competitive deck. There's also the new Mismagius card that has that Chaos Wheel-type attack. I could see that seeing some play in a fun disruption rogue deck. I can see Gardevoir players trying out Miltank as well. What do you guys think?
 
Crimson Invasion to me seems like a set that's more intended for adding more tech options as opposed to main deck options.

There are a lot of cool ideas, and stuff like the new Milotic to me is incredibly exciting. If you run Milotic with Alolan Ninetales, you can selectively push off threats on your opponent's side of the field as you wish every other turn. It would be terrible with something like tapu koko since your opponent chooses which damaged Pokemon to send away, but Milotic could replace or amplify Tapu Fini GX strats in that deck and just be a huge annoyance. Couple a strategy like that with a few copies of Parallel City and your opponent is just never going to have an optimal board, and you can choose when to go on the offensive.

I think the main reason why a lot of people are upset at Crimson Invasion is because there's no obviously fantastic things about the set like Gardevoir GX or Tapu Lele GX or Guzma, and in a lot of cases people are so used to their current list that they don't really think outside that list.

IMO, Crimson Invasion is a great intermediate set. These are the cards like Mr.Mime that we're going to look back on a year from now and ask ourselves why the heck we didn't consider playing them. Also, I am completely okay with an expansion not "advancing the meta" on literally every expansion. I don't think it's healthy for a TCG to change things too often.
 
Way to many people think that a bad card makes a rouge deck. A competitive deck engine, with a bad pokemon is not a rouge deck, but a bad deck.
 
Duo said:
Crimson Invasion to me seems like a set that's more intended for adding more tech options as opposed to main deck options.

There are a lot of cool ideas, and stuff like the new Milotic to me is incredibly exciting. If you run Milotic with Alolan Ninetales, you can selectively push off threats on your opponent's side of the field as you wish every other turn. It would be terrible with something like tapu koko since your opponent chooses which damaged Pokemon to send away, but Milotic could replace or amplify Tapu Fini GX strats in that deck and just be a huge annoyance. Couple a strategy like that with a few copies of Parallel City and your opponent is just never going to have an optimal board, and you can choose when to go on the offensive.

I think the main reason why a lot of people are upset at Crimson Invasion is because there's no obviously fantastic things about the set like Gardevoir GX or Tapu Lele GX or Guzma, and in a lot of cases people are so used to their current list that they don't really think outside that list.

IMO, Crimson Invasion is a great intermediate set. These are the cards like Mr.Mime that we're going to look back on a year from now and ask ourselves why the heck we didn't consider playing them. Also, I am completely okay with an expansion not "advancing the meta" on literally every expansion. I don't think it's healthy for a TCG to change things too often.
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I agree with this. There are some decent techs in the set like Kartana GX, and I think Counter Catcher, Counter Energy, Gladion, and Lusamine are all competitively viable cards that can be great in certain decks. None of them are going to shake things up though. I do think Ultra Beasts are going to get more support in upcoming sets. They're all pretty underwhelming for the most part besides Buzzwole and maybe Xurkitree. I don't really see decks being made to center around the other ones. I think Nihilego could be good as a tech in a deck like Metagross, being able to accelerate 3 Psychic Energy onto it in a turn and then use it's GX attack. It also has a nice ability that can help Metagross hit 190 damage in a turn with a Choice Band.

I actually really like Milotic. I'd be interested to see a deck with that included. Maybe a Ninetales GX/Po Town list? You can snipe things with Ninetales and then shuffle them back in the deck. I could see it working well against Gardevoir and Metagross by not allowing them to set up while you slowly build up your Ninetales to get KOs on other things on the field. Definitely needs a lot of playtesting though!
 
Agreed that it's not exactly a meta defining set. With the exception of two cards in Lusamine & Silvally-GX. Lusamine is going to be a staple in everything. Maybe not to the 4-of -always levels of Vs Seeker, but at least a 1 or 2-of in most, rising to 3 or 4 in decks where winning the Stadium war is crucial. She could potentially lead to a trend where more decks play mixed Stadia counts which would be neat.

Silvally may not have an immediate impact but combined with the tool cards he is going to reappear in many different archetypes for a long time to come. People are talking about putting all tools in but I don't know if that will work. Maybe two of two types that the best in Meta are weak to at any given time. Steel & Water right now for instance, to hurt Gardy & Volcanion. Or whatever the rest of your deck is weak to. The Free Retreat ability is an awesome bonus.

I don't really understand the hype for, or appeal of Gladion in anything. There are far too many other better supporters. Just town map and pick it up as a prize after your Sycamore/Guzma/whatever helps you get the prize and more besides. And who on earth plays Town Map? I ~get~ why it could be good, but there are too many much better options for that slot in your deck.

Kartana & Nihlego might have a home as support to other decks, but not something to build around. As might Mismagius, Salazzle & Alolan Marowak. Pherosoma too, though she is outside the set as a promo. Gengar & Hydreigon might make for janky meme fun decks.

Counter-catcher will be great here and there but planning to play from behind is a risky business. I quite like the look of the Sea of Nothingness stadium but I do like my special conditions decks. Peeping red card? Maybe as a 62nd card.

All in all not an amazing set, but a few cards worth looking at and two big must-haves in Lusamine & Silvally.
 
OMG. Xurkitree = circuitry. Ahahahahhha.



..took me long enough.

TiAT7aC.jpg
 
Yog said:
Agreed that it's not exactly a meta defining set. With the exception of two cards in Lusamine & Silvally-GX. Lusamine is going to be a staple in everything. Maybe not to the 4-of -always levels of Vs Seeker, but at least a 1 or 2-of in most, rising to 3 or 4 in decks where winning the Stadium war is crucial. She could potentially lead to a trend where more decks play mixed Stadia counts which would be neat.

Silvally may not have an immediate impact but combined with the tool cards he is going to reappear in many different archetypes for a long time to come. People are talking about putting all tools in but I don't know if that will work. Maybe two of two types that the best in Meta are weak to at any given time. Steel & Water right now for instance, to hurt Gardy & Volcanion. Or whatever the rest of your deck is weak to. The Free Retreat ability is an awesome bonus.

I don't really understand the hype for, or appeal of Gladion in anything. There are far too many other better supporters. Just town map and pick it up as a prize after your Sycamore/Guzma/whatever helps you get the prize and more besides. And who on earth plays Town Map? I ~get~ why it could be good, but there are too many much better options for that slot in your deck.

Kartana & Nihlego might have a home as support to other decks, but not something to build around. As might Mismagius, Salazzle & Alolan Marowak. Pherosoma too, though she is outside the set as a promo. Gengar & Hydreigon might make for janky meme fun decks.

Counter-catcher will be great here and there but planning to play from behind is a risky business. I quite like the look of the Sea of Nothingness stadium but I do like my special conditions decks. Peeping red card? Maybe as a 62nd card.

All in all not an amazing set, but a few cards worth looking at and two big must-haves in Lusamine & Silvally.
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For sure! I agree with you, although I will say that Gladion is worth a solid look. For example, let's say that you know a DCE is prized and you HAVE to hit one this turn, instead of using Sycamore or N and hoping you draw into it, you can use Gladion and get the prized one. There are drawbacks sure, but I do think it can be great as a 1-of in many decks.

After looking at the set more and more, I don't think it's as underwhelming as I initially thought. It's nowhere near as great as Guardians Rising, and Burning Shadows is definitely better, but I do agree with Duo and think that after we've had some more sets come out, there could be future cards that combo well with some sleeper cards in this set.
 
HouchinsDJ said:
For example, let's say that you know a DCE is prized and you HAVE to hit one this turn, instead of using Sycamore or N and hoping you draw into it, you can use Gladion and get the prized one. There are drawbacks sure, but I do think it can be great as a 1-of in many decks.
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You have a One-in-[number of remaining Prizes] chance of getting that Double Colorless Energy, though. Gladion does not work on face-up Prize cards, so you cannot combo it with something like Town Map. There are some cards that don't permanently flip up your Prizes, but the last one I remember proving worthwhile was Alph Lithograph (HS: Triumphant FOUR). Digging for a Double Colorless Energy in your deck may be better or worse odds...

...but your draw power is being run for another reason. If you're really worried about something stuck in your Prize cards, Town Map seems like the answer unless your deck is slow at taking Prizes (or doesn't take them at all). If you can spare a Supporter for the turn to help with it, then Here Comes Team Rocket! flips up everyone's Prize cards, ruining Greedy Dice and Gladion. Your opponent will get to see his or her Prize cards as well... but I've had Town Map backfire on me enough times (because my opponent found out I was in a bad way, learned something about my build, etc.) that it isn't purely a bad thing.


Edit: Someone *coughmecough* should have double checked the translations. Either I remembered an earlier one or (most likely) just remembered it incorrectly.
 
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Otaku said:
You have a One-in-[number of remaining Prizes] chance of getting that Double Colorless Energy, though. Gladion does not work on face-up Prize cards, so you cannot combo it with something like Town Map. There are some cards that don't permanently flip up your Prizes, but the last one I remember proving worthwhile was Alph Lithograph (HS: Triumphant FOUR). Digging for a Double Colorless Energy in your deck may be better or worse odds...

...but your draw power is being run for another reason. If you're really worried about something stuck in your Prize cards, Town Map seems like the answer unless your deck is slow at taking Prizes (or doesn't take them at all). If you can spare a Supporter for the turn to help with it, then Here Comes Team Rocket! flips up everyone's Prize cards, ruining Greedy Dice and Gladion. Your opponent will get to see his or her Prize cards as well... but I've had Town Map backfire on me enough times (because my opponent found out I was in a bad way, learned something about my build, etc.) that it isn't purely a bad thing.
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I might be misinterpreting what you said but Gladion allows you to look at your prize cards and then switch it, you know exactly what you are getting out.
 
SmiteKnight said:
I might be misinterpreting what you said but Gladion allows you to look at your prize cards and then switch it, you know exactly what you are getting out.
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Yeah he satated it as if you just pick a random Prize Card. Though, as you mentioned, Gladion lets you lookat them (without showing the opponent) and choose one of them.
 
Gladion is best in expanded like ever other one of supporter however you can't say you can only use one gladion per game at least. Personally I'm gonna love putting it in Durant the other day I played 2 games with Durant and had 2 of them prized so gladion is an auto inclusion however that deck is not exactly great
 
I personally am not a fan of Gladion at all, except in decks like Passimian and Greninja. I think one to two Lusamine will be a staple, just because recovering Supporters is always strong.
 
Milotic/Fini GX could be an amazing combo. We have loads of water support, and you could easily get a turn 2 win.
 
SmiteKnight said:
I might be misinterpreting what you said but Gladion allows you to look at your prize cards and then switch it, you know exactly what you are getting out.
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Thank you for correcting my error. I edited my previous post slightly so anyone joining the discussion past this point knows that I know I got it wrong. XP Either I remembered an earlier, incorrect translation or I just didn't remember correctly (probably the latter).

Now, having weakned my position, I still have to point out that I do still have reservations about Gladion. Have to check my own previous posts to see what I thought of it at first... *does so* okay, here we go:

Otaku said:
On the subject of Gladion, with my literal first exposure I thought it sounded pretty awesome; get the card out of your Prizes you want most, then slap Gladion in there so that you can do it again later (if need be). After mulling it over, I need to agree with @Xeynid and @Yog and the others questioning its general value. For decks that do not take many or any Prizes or that cannot take Prizes if any copies of [insert key card] are Prized, this could prove invaluable.

For the rest of us, you're burning a Supporter to see your Prizes and replace one of them with Gladion; not bad, but not great. You're looking at 10% of your maximum deck size, so what happens when there is nothing worth it in your Prizes? If you know ahead of time, then Gladion becomes a dead card, which isn't a dealbreaker but does matter. If you don't know, then it is a bit like using Skyla when you didn't realize all your key Trainer cards were gone. The Skyla comparison is also useful because what happens when you really need a Supporter out of your Prizes? You get it, but you have to hope it is still relevant on your next turn.
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This proves nothing, of course, but these are my concerns with Gladion. If I am at least close to being correct, it might be one of those cards that gets better a bit after its released... say in a slower format where we might not have the likes of Professor Sycamore and N for big draws and have already shifted to more search and more Pokémon-based draw. Then again, maybe we won't be able to spare a Supporter for anything but draw power if they have such (comparably) low yields.
 
I can see Gladion being great for decks with lots of 1-of techs. Toolbox decks will really appreciate being able to fish a key card out of the prize, where otherwise you would automatically lose.
 
Yog said:
Just town map and pick it up as a prize after your Sycamore/Guzma/whatever helps you get the prize and more besides.
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The real power of gladion is that you can get something out of prize Loch that might otherwise keep you from getting that first prize draw. It's not for every deck but in some Decks that might need something out of the prizes right now it's a good idea to have one or two.
 
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