Building a Palkia deck currently.
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Deck Decision - M Sceptile-EX or Fairies?
- Thread starter FierySplash
- Start date
Mega Sceptile seems like the more competitive option, with Fire types taking a huge hit with Blacksmith/Compressor being gone, but Volcanion is going to be a deck (Just not too good of a deck except the Sceptile matchup) and it boasts the best grind game. I think it has a lot of opportunity to do well.
Pros:
-Fast set up with potential to hit for 100 (110 with Ariados) on your first turn.
-Can heal, which seems like a meh selling point, but it is really important especially when most Pokemon are going to THKO you.
-Very flexible techs (Ariados/Garbodor/Zoroark).
-Revitalizer is a really strong card which allows you to get back your Ariados/Mega Sceptiles.
Cons:
-Cloggy hands
-Fire isn't going to be that good coming up, but it is definitely a counter to this deck
-Can't OHKO and can't THKO consistently sometimes
-All EXs so there will naturally be a lot of hate towards your deck (Carbink/Giratina for your Megas/OHKO for cheap prizes).
Gardevoir isn't going to be as good, but definitely an option. My big issue with Fairy currently is Mega Mewtwo, which is an instant loss. Mega Mewtwo is going to be really good next format, so I wouldn't play a deck that just loses to it so easily.
Pros:
-Fast set up with potential to hit for 100 (110 with Ariados) on your first turn.
-Can heal, which seems like a meh selling point, but it is really important especially when most Pokemon are going to THKO you.
-Very flexible techs (Ariados/Garbodor/Zoroark).
-Revitalizer is a really strong card which allows you to get back your Ariados/Mega Sceptiles.
Cons:
-Cloggy hands
-Fire isn't going to be that good coming up, but it is definitely a counter to this deck
-Can't OHKO and can't THKO consistently sometimes
-All EXs so there will naturally be a lot of hate towards your deck (Carbink/Giratina for your Megas/OHKO for cheap prizes).
Gardevoir isn't going to be as good, but definitely an option. My big issue with Fairy currently is Mega Mewtwo, which is an instant loss. Mega Mewtwo is going to be really good next format, so I wouldn't play a deck that just loses to it so easily.
Thanks for the solid points, I threw in a Regice just in case I'm playing an EX heavy deck or fire deck. Regarding the fairy deck it has a higher damage potential than the Sceptile one but as you said it loses to Mega Mewtwo pretty easily. Any other decks that I should look into building, I have experience in TCG, but this is gonna be my first deck that I will actually be playing at Play! Pokemon Events. Vespaplume is fun as well but the only only problem is the Shaymins their price and the fact that they can be Lysandre'd out for 2 easy prizes.
Note: My Fairy deck has one Xerneas EX and an STS MGardevoir can possibly be added in order to counter Mewtwo decks.
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Any deck reliant on Battle Compressor is going to basically be worthless post rotation (Yes, you can still play it for a few weeks, but I wouldn't go through all of the hassle of getting the cards just to have to sell them). As far as suggestions go, for Mega Sceptile, I would just run pure (teching Ariados or Garbodor). Regice was something I really liked in my build, but with a lot of people running Pokemon Ranger, I personally wouldn't go for it now. Giratina is something I have seen some people messing with, but I haven't tested it enough. Fairy still gets wrecked overall by Mewtwo though. There really isn't much you can do about it, the new Mega Gardevoir helps, but besides that, it is still an overall bad match up. Giratina can help, and it is probably the best option, but with just one Hex Maniac or a live Garbodor, and they can get an easy OHKO.
I personally have been testing Darkrai/Giratina builds, and I have been liking them, you can run cards like Parallel City and Garbodor, which allows you to win most matchups. The deck just has too much variance though for my taste, sometimes you hit 2 Max Elixirs and a DDE, sometimes you just attach a Darkness Energy to Darkrai. I still think I am going with Sceptile (best art, and fun to play), and Volcanion hasn't been doing too well for me (testing post rotation), so I think Mega Sceptile won't have a counter for a little while.
I personally have been testing Darkrai/Giratina builds, and I have been liking them, you can run cards like Parallel City and Garbodor, which allows you to win most matchups. The deck just has too much variance though for my taste, sometimes you hit 2 Max Elixirs and a DDE, sometimes you just attach a Darkness Energy to Darkrai. I still think I am going with Sceptile (best art, and fun to play), and Volcanion hasn't been doing too well for me (testing post rotation), so I think Mega Sceptile won't have a counter for a little while.
You made some good points there, any chance that you could give me and example of the Garbodor/Giratina being incorporated in the form of a deck list?
The only thing about Regice is his 3 energy retreat cost, which can be cut to 0 but only with the addition of Manaphy, which is like Shaymin just two free prize cards waiting to be Lysandre'd.
This is my current list that is using Garbodor but not Giratina.
2 Trubbish (BKP 56)
2 Shaymin-EX (ROS 77)
3 M Sceptile-EX (AOR 8)
4 Sceptile-EX (AOR 7)
2 Garbodor (BKP 57)
2 Lugia (FCO 78)
9 Grass Energy (GEN 75)
1 Hex Maniac (AOR 75)
4 Ultra Ball (FCO 113)
1 Giovanni's Scheme (BKT 138)
1 Fisherman (BKT 136)
3 Mega Turbo (ROS 86)
2 Lysandre (AOR 78)
1 Super Rod (BKT 149)
3 Professor Sycamore (BKP 107)
3 Sceptile Spirit Link (AOR 80)
4 Forest of Giant Plants (AOR 74)
4 Trainers' Mail (ROS 92)
4 VS Seeker (PHF 109)
2 N (FCO 105)
2 Float Stone (BKT 137)
1 Revitalizer (GEN 70)
This is my current list that is using Garbodor and Giratina.
2 Trubbish (BKP 56)
2 Shaymin-EX (ROS 77)
3 M Sceptile-EX (AOR 8)
4 Sceptile-EX (AOR 7)
2 Garbodor (BKP 57)
2 Giratina-EX (AOR 57)
9 Grass Energy (GEN 75)
4 Double Dragon Energy (ROS 97)
1 Hex Maniac (AOR 75)
4 Ultra Ball (FCO 113)
1 Giovanni's Scheme (BKT 138)
1 Fisherman (BKT 136)
2 Mega Turbo (ROS 86)
2 Lysandre (AOR 78)
3 Professor Sycamore (BKP 107)
3 Sceptile Spirit Link (AOR 80)
4 Forest of Giant Plants (AOR 74)
3 Trainers' Mail (ROS 92)
4 VS Seeker (PHF 109)
2 N (FCO 105)
2 Float Stone (BKT 137)
Both builds are good, but I like the one with just Garbodor more for consistency. The Garbodor w/o Giratina list is a lot more flexible for techs and making the build more consistent.
2 Trubbish (BKP 56)
2 Shaymin-EX (ROS 77)
3 M Sceptile-EX (AOR 8)
4 Sceptile-EX (AOR 7)
2 Garbodor (BKP 57)
2 Lugia (FCO 78)
9 Grass Energy (GEN 75)
1 Hex Maniac (AOR 75)
4 Ultra Ball (FCO 113)
1 Giovanni's Scheme (BKT 138)
1 Fisherman (BKT 136)
3 Mega Turbo (ROS 86)
2 Lysandre (AOR 78)
1 Super Rod (BKT 149)
3 Professor Sycamore (BKP 107)
3 Sceptile Spirit Link (AOR 80)
4 Forest of Giant Plants (AOR 74)
4 Trainers' Mail (ROS 92)
4 VS Seeker (PHF 109)
2 N (FCO 105)
2 Float Stone (BKT 137)
1 Revitalizer (GEN 70)
This is my current list that is using Garbodor and Giratina.
2 Trubbish (BKP 56)
2 Shaymin-EX (ROS 77)
3 M Sceptile-EX (AOR 8)
4 Sceptile-EX (AOR 7)
2 Garbodor (BKP 57)
2 Giratina-EX (AOR 57)
9 Grass Energy (GEN 75)
4 Double Dragon Energy (ROS 97)
1 Hex Maniac (AOR 75)
4 Ultra Ball (FCO 113)
1 Giovanni's Scheme (BKT 138)
1 Fisherman (BKT 136)
2 Mega Turbo (ROS 86)
2 Lysandre (AOR 78)
3 Professor Sycamore (BKP 107)
3 Sceptile Spirit Link (AOR 80)
4 Forest of Giant Plants (AOR 74)
3 Trainers' Mail (ROS 92)
4 VS Seeker (PHF 109)
2 N (FCO 105)
2 Float Stone (BKT 137)
Both builds are good, but I like the one with just Garbodor more for consistency. The Garbodor w/o Giratina list is a lot more flexible for techs and making the build more consistent.
Solid builds indeed but I was looking for something without the Shaymin as I'm not putting that much money into Pokemon just yet. Also, I was thinking about a fighting deck which has Zygarde and Carbink Break both being cards which will have high potential this coming rotation?
I'm currently playing Zygarde EX - Vileplume. Fun deck and really cheap since you don't even use VS Seekers and you can replace Shaymin with 1 or 2 Octillery lines (although it's not as consistent, but it's really not that bad!). However this deck needs AZ really bad (you run 4 copies incase you get your Vileplume Lysandre-d or something) so after the rotation if he doesn't get a reprint the deck can't be played.
edit: Zygarde variants (and Fighting decks in general) are relatively cheap because of Korrina replacing Shaymin for up to a point (still not a bad idea to run just 1 copy of it). If Korrina gets rotated tho..
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In my opinion Octillery beats Shaymin in the draw power game because of the amount of times Abyssal hand can be used, plus the fact that having your Octillery Lysandre'd out won't hurt as much as a Shaymin KO.
As far as the fighting deck goes I think there needs to be some switch up because of the amount of cards that are being rotated out. Possibly a completely different deck? Volcanion seems interesting....
It really depends on the deck. Octillery might give just 1 prize card but it has 2 retreat cost and is a Stage 1. Most decks right now need Shaymin and the reason is that they need to set up fast and don't need to have consistent draws between turns once they are ready. Yes, Octillery will in the long run give more cards, Shaymin on the other hand can give you more when you need them.
If you're new to the game and have to play with a limited budget, it's not easy to go straight for the Shaymins. I've been there for a year or so, just got my first Shaymin this weekend and it wasn't even in English - so that I could get it cheaper. (it was in Italian so I can still play it in my local league in Europe)
Sad thing is that, right now you need 2 of them to unlock the most competitive decks currently around. However, you can try different cards like a 1 or 2 Octillery lines/ adding more copies of N or you can go for decks that don't really need Shaymin, like Greninja (although it will see a decline for sure in the next months untill tool removals get back in the game) or fighting decks with Korrina (same thing after the rotation), until you can finally get yours. It's not impossible to play without Shay, it's just not as easy. If you've tried it on PTCGO I'm sure you can understand.
As for the fire decks, they are really something to be aware of if you're thinking of going for M-Sceptile. They are losing blacksmith but Volcanion (both EX and baby) seem to be a new threat and I'm pretty sure that other decks (like Greninja or Yveltal variants) will get hurt more after the rotation than fire decks!
The issue with Octillery is Garbodor, "But Shaymin is an ability based Pokemon too!" I'll get to that.
Shaymin and Octillery are completely different types of support Pokemon. Shaymin is used for making explosive plays turn 1-2 and getting an early lead. Octillery is used for long game consistency. What makes them so different is that Octillery is a stage 1 so you must wait atleast a turn to make it online, and you also only draw 5 cards, which isn't bad, but 6 is generally better. Shaymin you can just drop and draw up to 6, which makes the card explosive, and without any set up time for Shaymin (The puns), he is a first turn accelerator. So to get the most out of Octillery you need to resolve his ability 2+ times a game, this gets really hard with cards like Garbodor in the mix. A first turn Shaymin will be live 99% of the time, a turn 2 or 3 Octillery may not be live that much. That being said, they both fill a role, one is used for setting up for the rest of the game based off of one turn (Think trying to hit Max Elixirs in Darkrai Giratina) and one is to improve your overall game consistency (Think Greninja decks trying to find Supporters or Energy late game). Thus cards that shut down Abilities (Garbodor) hurt Octillery so much, while it doesn't even hurt Shaymin (Except for Silent Lab).
Volcanion isn't a really good deck due to a couple things, Ability Reliant, run a lot of support Pokemon, high Retreat Cost, rely on Shaymin (for Budget players) and don't have cards like Blacksmith to help the deck out.
As far as a budget decks go (No Shaymins, and what not), Rainbow Road Xerneas looks really good. With the new set 2 new Pokemon came out which both are really really good, Galvantula snipes Shaymin, and Bisharp helps once your Xerneas gets KOed. It also aids the math a lot, for you to one hit a Rayquaza you needed 7 Pokemon on your bench, which wasn't hard, but wasn't easy, now, you only need 5, which is amazing. The deck does take some rough loses, but what deck doesn't currently.
Shaymin and Octillery are completely different types of support Pokemon. Shaymin is used for making explosive plays turn 1-2 and getting an early lead. Octillery is used for long game consistency. What makes them so different is that Octillery is a stage 1 so you must wait atleast a turn to make it online, and you also only draw 5 cards, which isn't bad, but 6 is generally better. Shaymin you can just drop and draw up to 6, which makes the card explosive, and without any set up time for Shaymin (The puns), he is a first turn accelerator. So to get the most out of Octillery you need to resolve his ability 2+ times a game, this gets really hard with cards like Garbodor in the mix. A first turn Shaymin will be live 99% of the time, a turn 2 or 3 Octillery may not be live that much. That being said, they both fill a role, one is used for setting up for the rest of the game based off of one turn (Think trying to hit Max Elixirs in Darkrai Giratina) and one is to improve your overall game consistency (Think Greninja decks trying to find Supporters or Energy late game). Thus cards that shut down Abilities (Garbodor) hurt Octillery so much, while it doesn't even hurt Shaymin (Except for Silent Lab).
Volcanion isn't a really good deck due to a couple things, Ability Reliant, run a lot of support Pokemon, high Retreat Cost, rely on Shaymin (for Budget players) and don't have cards like Blacksmith to help the deck out.
As far as a budget decks go (No Shaymins, and what not), Rainbow Road Xerneas looks really good. With the new set 2 new Pokemon came out which both are really really good, Galvantula snipes Shaymin, and Bisharp helps once your Xerneas gets KOed. It also aids the math a lot, for you to one hit a Rayquaza you needed 7 Pokemon on your bench, which wasn't hard, but wasn't easy, now, you only need 5, which is amazing. The deck does take some rough loses, but what deck doesn't currently.
I have actually transitioned away completely from the original decks I was going to build and will now be building a Palkia deck, which functions without Octillery or Shaymins. Thank you guys, for the input you guys have put in to this thread. 
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Hey, if you're running a water deck with dive-balls you can run 1 or 2 Octillery lines easily (unless as you say, you don't find them useful).
Also just wanted to note that we will probably get a reprint of Base Set Blastoise and his ability might help water decks a lot!
Also just wanted to note that we will probably get a reprint of Base Set Blastoise and his ability might help water decks a lot!
Who are you using for a main attacker in Palkia? Have you considered Kyurem-EX from AOR?
Yes, I will be using two copies of Kyreum EX from AOR in my Palkia deck.