Ruling E-Hammer on Primal Groudon

The Almighty Bidoof

The Almighty Bidoof

Just your everyday MtF trans Bidoof worshipper
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Hi,
I'm planning on bringing a stall deck to Dallas. I have a question for the Groudon Matchup. Am I allowed to use an Enhanced Hammer if Primal Groudon has a Strong Energy attached (due to the Ancient Trait making it fail)?
 
You can play it if you want to thin your hand, but it will have no effect.
 
Vom said:
I assumed the same logic as for Guzma applied (you can target Groudon but nothing will happen).
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Enhanced Hammer would only be removing a Special Energy, but it would fail, thus making the card being played for no effect— knowing that Omega Barrier is in play while trying to do so won't also not work, but it'll set the person doing so up for a gameplay error.
 
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PokeMedic said:
Gumza can effect both players, so you'd do your part of effect (swaping your Pokemon) while the effect on the opponent would fail due to Omega Barrier. Enhanced Hammer would only be removing a Special Energy, and knowing that Omega Barrier is in play while trying to do so isn't only not going to work, but it'll set you up for a gameplay error.
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I thought you didn't actually get to the switching part on Guzma since the gust effect didn't work, or at least that's what happened on PTCGO. In any case, I stand corrected.
 
PokeMedic said:
Gumza can effect both players, so you'd do your part of effect (swaping your Pokemon) while the effect on the opponent would fail due to Omega Barrier. Enhanced Hammer would only be removing a Special Energy, and knowing that Omega Barrier is in play while trying to do so isn't only not going to work, but it'll set you up for a gameplay error.
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Actually, swapping your side of the field would fail also, because that clause only takes effect IF bringing up one of your opponent’s Pokémon is a success. But, it isn’t, so you can’t play Guzma in the first place.
 
Technically everyone, Groudons ancient says that “Whenever your opponent plays a Trainer card (excluding Pokémon Tools and Stadium cards), prevent all effects of that card done to this Pokémon.” So if you play that E hammer, it would have no effect! You can still play the card since that it coming first, before the ancient trait triggers. (Meaning you can shorten your hand)
 
_PokeMaster_ said:
Technically everyone, Groudons ancient says that “Whenever your opponent plays a Trainer card (excluding Pokémon Tools and Stadium cards), prevent all effects of that card done to this Pokémon.” So if you play that E hammer, it would have no effect! You can still play the card since that it coming first, before the ancient trait triggers. (Meaning you can shorten your hand)
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that was my assumption, as there is still a valid target for Hammer, it's just that another effect makes it immune to that card, which only occurs after the Hammer is played

EDIT: Just found this http://forums.pokemontcg.com/topic/30313-rulings-clarification-trainer-cards-vs-omega-barrier/. Not sure if this would be considered an official ruling, since similar mistakes have been made by TTCGO staff :/
 
From what I've been looking at you can play a card against Omega Barrier even though you know it would fail. That sort of flies in the face of "you can't play a card for no effect" ruling you see in The Compendium, but I guess this is different because of the circumstances.

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Compendium says "You cannot play a card if it is public knowledge that it will have no game effect. Paying a cost does not satisfy the requirement that the card has a game effect. (Jan 31, 2008 PUI Rules Team; Mar 12, 2009 PUI Rules Team)"— and it says similar quotes a number of times throughout.

But then we get this for a precedence:

Q. Can I play Eneporter to try and fail to move a Special Energy onto a Pyroar that is protected by its "Unnerve" Ability, or would I not be able to play Eneporter at all?
A. The fact that its effect will be blocked by another effect such as Unnerve does not prevent an Item or Supporter card from being played. For example, your opponent may play Eneporter to try moving a Special Energy and Pyroar is a valid target, but Unnerve blocks the effect even though Eneporter was played. Playing a card for no effect happens when the game state itself prevents any effect from taking place and in that case the card would not be played, but that is not what this example is referring to. (Forbidden Light FAQ; May 3, 2018 TPCi Rules Team)

So in this regard the card can be played but it just gets blocked by an effect of something. Not like you were trying to play a card when no effect would've happened in the first place— Omega Barrier puts a condition out there that changes things.
 
PokeMedic said:
From what I've been looking at you can play a card against Omega Barrier even though you know it would fail. That sort of flies in the face of "you can't play a card for no effect" ruling you see in The Compendium, but I guess this is different because of the circumstances.
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I believe your confusion stems from what is meant by "For no effect." It isn't talking about the end results, but whether it has an effect before other factors that would mitigate its effect. It becomes "doing as much as you can" at that point.

That is why effects which are intended to completely prevent something from being played say "You cannot play..." or "You cannot target..." or words to that effect. Those two were off the top of my head, not copy/pasted from the actual cards. ;) There likely are contradictions within those... check to see if they are about ease of execution. I am pretty sure the entire reason you can "fail" most search effects is less because of what was originally intended and more because someone realized how much of a pain it would be to track and prove that "No, really, I have no Pokémon left in my deck." in a tournament setting. ;)
 
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Holy crap, Dallas regionals is coming up! I 100% forgot! Now to crap up some memey stuff and win.
As per the ruling, though, just how I think it would play out is like, you can play it to fail it. Omega Barrier says when a card is played, implying that Enhanced Hammer literally has to be played in order for Omega Barrier to even take effect, that it prevents all effects of the card done to it. Omega Barrier doesn’t work without the playing of an opponent’s Trainer card.
 
Primal groudon is type of deck you should just not worry about. either you win because they get nothing and you beat them by getting lucky or you lose because primal groudon wins against all stall decks usually. Also very very few people have the cards neccessary to build a good primal groudon deck so I wouldn't count on finding many people playing it.
 
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