Discussion Expanded Decks Bad Match Ups and Strategies to Overcome

Kopernicous

Aspiring Trainer
Member
I am pretty much brand new to Pokemon TCG and wanted to see if I could get some input on some expanded decks, what their bad match ups are and how to overcome the match up i.e strategy/cards to include.

Some of the decks I am curious on is particular is Night March, Trevenant Break, Sableye/Garbodor and Turbo Darkrai.

Thanks ahead of time :)
 
Bad matchups for NM include decks that can outpace (most of the time its Darkrai), Mill/Heavy denial. Decks that run Karen are also more difficult, but Karen is easier to deal with then Oricorio. Deal with Darkrai with Marshadow. Also the mirror is depended on who gets the first attack off. *ALWAYS CHOOSE TO GO SECOND* Don't play down any EX/GX in the mirror, it will just help you opponent.

Trevenant has (obviously) bad matchup against Darkrai. Best hope is to get an early Black Ray into streaming Trevs. Other than that, I wouldn't say anything else much.

Sableye/Garbodor has very good matchups, not really any bad ones. Worst I'd say is energy recovery decks. Almost no one plays Sableye anymore, due to the fact that its games just take too long. Beware of Trevenant though. To counter that, a simple Latias-EX is used.

Turbo Darkrai suffers now from Marshadow decks, and Heavy denial. It isn't too bad, since most of the time you'll have at least 8 energy and its hard to get rid of.
 
@FlavorfulPineApl Thank you very much and this helps a lot.: ) I do love NM with Marshadow as its a beast. Been playing online with him and he can take over games when he gets online. Only thing that sucks is doing regular VS mode I don't seem to see a lot of meta decks to test against. :(
 
That definitely could be why and I forget TCGO had elo.lol Explains why I see like no meta decks when play any mode. :)
 
I am pretty much brand new to Pokemon TCG and wanted to see if I could get some input on some expanded decks, what their bad match ups are and how to overcome the match up i.e strategy/cards to include.

Some of the decks I am curious on is particular is Night March, Trevenant Break, Sableye/Garbodor and Turbo Darkrai.

Thanks ahead of time :)
Hey! i have a night march deck and i can tell you that some match ups are VERY difficult.. especially with that oricorio running around.
also espeon is difficult to face. Garbador it doesn't matter since your nightmarches are so low hitpoints, so dont worry about playing around trashalanche unless you play the Marshadow Gx version.
thats my input on NM
 
Hey! i have a night march deck and i can tell you that some match ups are VERY difficult.. especially with that oricorio running around.
also espeon is difficult to face. Garbador it doesn't matter since your nightmarches are so low hitpoints, so dont worry about playing around trashalanche unless you play the Marshadow Gx version.
thats my input on NM
Thanks for the input as anything can help me. :) I have been running with 1 Marshadow GX. Also seems like a bad match up with Trevenant can maybe be helped with a Giratini. I just need to play in my local stores to finally get to play against the top decks in expanded cause so far online I rarely see them.

I may need to look into the Sceptile/Bulu deck. :)
 
Thanks for the input as anything can help me. :) I have been running with 1 Marshadow GX. Also seems like a bad match up with Trevenant can maybe be helped with a Giratini. I just need to play in my local stores to finally get to play against the top decks in expanded cause so far online I rarely see them.

I may need to look into the Sceptile/Bulu deck. :)
No problem!
 
Thanks for the input as anything can help me. :) I have been running with 1 Marshadow GX. Also seems like a bad match up with Trevenant can maybe be helped with a Giratini. I just need to play in my local stores to finally get to play against the top decks in expanded cause so far online I rarely see them.

I may need to look into the Sceptile/Bulu deck. :)
Check google on Youtube
 
I'm going to add to Sableye-Garb.

I've been playing control builds across different card games for years. Sableye-Garb isn't THE hardest control deck to pilot (that respect goes to M:TG, Legacy format, 'Solidarity'). But Sableye-Garb is up there. It's nice though that is has good overall matchups and a cheaper price tag than most other Expanded meta decks. That said, it is SOOOOOOO not beginner friendly.

I don't believe its hard to pilot due most of your games are determined if you win G1. It's tough because it's a REALLY unorthodox control build. It's a 'toolbox' control.

Normally, control decks capitalize on predictable metas and can exploit common pressure points and their decks are built appropriately to consistently exploit said pressure point(s). The way Pokemon is, there isn't really ONE thing a control deck can hone on very well and you can ride your success off of exploiting ONE thing. I've noticed that many Pokemon control decks tend to go after a few things. Sableye-Garb doesn't exploit one thing very well. It's not built to exploit a few things very well. In fact, it doesn't do any one thing very well (as noted by a lot of it's 1-of/2-of cards) and rather opts to have MANY MANY options open and apply a lot of LITTLE bits of pressure turn by turn. It's hard to play because the deck has SO MANY OPTIONS, and because the deck VERY SLOWLY gets it's claws in as the game progresses. It is incredibly easy to make a wrong play and IMMEDIATELY lose your footing.

I have found that the deck is capable of making some really unorthodox plays that benefit you later down the road, but you have to practice quite a bit with it to learn how and when to make those plays and what decks you can make some of these plays against.

I will say though, I have a newfound respect for Trick Shovel. This deck makes that card ridiculous!
 
@Merovingian Thank you very much for the break down of the Sableye-Garb. I use to play MTG controls decks especial Cruel Control and the Jace Mind Scuplt Decks so definitely can appreciate the disclaimer of not for beginners. These type of decks, I feel, you have to always be on your toes in making sure to make the right plays now and for future turns. i.e less forgiving then other decks. I do like that its budget style deck and imo Pokemon is way less of a money sink the MTG which is why I got away from. :)

I think I may just build the deck online and give it a spin or build but practice before going into tournaments. :)
 
I'm going to add to Sableye-Garb.

I've been playing control builds across different card games for years. Sableye-Garb isn't THE hardest control deck to pilot (that respect goes to M:TG, Legacy format, 'Solidarity'). But Sableye-Garb is up there. It's nice though that is has good overall matchups and a cheaper price tag than most other Expanded meta decks. That said, it is SOOOOOOO not beginner friendly.

I don't believe its hard to pilot due most of your games are determined if you win G1. It's tough because it's a REALLY unorthodox control build. It's a 'toolbox' control.

Normally, control decks capitalize on predictable metas and can exploit common pressure points and their decks are built appropriately to consistently exploit said pressure point(s). The way Pokemon is, there isn't really ONE thing a control deck can hone on very well and you can ride your success off of exploiting ONE thing. I've noticed that many Pokemon control decks tend to go after a few things. Sableye-Garb doesn't exploit one thing very well. It's not built to exploit a few things very well. In fact, it doesn't do any one thing very well (as noted by a lot of it's 1-of/2-of cards) and rather opts to have MANY MANY options open and apply a lot of LITTLE bits of pressure turn by turn. It's hard to play because the deck has SO MANY OPTIONS, and because the deck VERY SLOWLY gets it's claws in as the game progresses. It is incredibly easy to make a wrong play and IMMEDIATELY lose your footing.

I have found that the deck is capable of making some really unorthodox plays that benefit you later down the road, but you have to practice quite a bit with it to learn how and when to make those plays and what decks you can make some of these plays against.

I will say though, I have a newfound respect for Trick Shovel. This deck makes that card ridiculous!
Great advice. I myself was going to post my Sableye list that I'm having great success with. I agree its a difficult deck to properly learn.
 
I also hear if you play Sableye-Garb dont expect to make friends through out the event as most people dont like to not be able to do anything turn after turn.lol :)
 
I went to an event with Sableye/Garb and actually had some nice conversations with my opponent as I milled them to death.

I made friends with the greatest troll deck I could ever hope to conceive.

So grab me some of that airplane glue and I'll tell you a story!

Now, this is when I played Yugioh. So those unfamilar with how things in the game work, I'll explain it as best I can.

I trolled the entire Yugioh card game player-base back in 2008 by creating and running a deck at high level events that manipulated the game state when a tie game was created.

Here's what makes the whole thing work: A card called 'Self-Destruct Button'. The card says that you have to have to have a 7000 point deficit between you and your opponent to use the card. If you can fulfill the requirement, the current game ends in a tie and you go onto the next game.

The intent of the card was to basically have a 're-do'. Both players start a new game at 8000 points. In order to NORMALLY have a 7000 point decrease, you either have to have the worst f-up of a hand. OR. You create a deck that is completely dedicated into making the game a tie. At the time, there were two cards that could EASILY create this 7000 point deficit (Inspection, a card you could use 3 in a deck, and Wall of Revealing Light, a card you could only use 1 of. So 4 cards to create the deficit, 3 'Buttons, and 33 cards that were dedicated to draw as many of the 'tie components' in the first turn). When I created the deck, I had it to where it had a 92% success rate. But the deck could ONLY WORK in OFFICIALLY SANCTIONED EVENTS like a state regional or championship tournaments because their judges HAD to abide by the rules to a T, whereas a locals tournament run by Joe Schmo comic shop owner had quite a bit more wiggle room with rules concerning unsanctioned tournaments. This deck utilized a LOT of rules that, when put together (create Captain Planet) create this weird vortex of schmuckiness.

Let's get into that.

In the official guidelines, a 'best 2 games out of 3' match lasts at a max of 40 minutes. After that, end of match guidelines are implemented (we'll get to that in a minute). Also, when I played the deck (under UpperDeck Entertainment guidelines), in the event of a tie game whoever was determined (by coin toss, dice roll, etc) to be the 'choosing player' AT THE START OF THE MATCH got to choose who would go first or second in the next game.

So how does all this add up?

You have a deck that does nothing but tie and has a 92% consistency rate. If you win the initial dice roll and tie game 1, in game 2 you decide who goes first (electing yourself), and do this ad nauseum. The result was that the opponent would draw their hand and could do almost NOTHING to stop what was going to happen for the next 5 minutes. And then the tie happens, shuffle decks, they draw their hand--and can do nothing with it. That is the only interaction I have with my opponent for the full 40 minutes.

What if the opponent went first? Well, at the time, the top tournament decks had no counters or any way to stop it (except for really circumstantial stuff like them drawing Mystical Space Typhoon in their opening hand and me only having a lone Inspection or Self-Destruct Button as my means of making the tie. hitting the lone Inspection would be the smart choice, as shooting for a lone 'Button amongst other 'bait' cards was inadvisable. And because Mystical Space Typhoon was limited to 1 at the time, it was a statistical improbability that they would have their ONE card and I would have so few outs, but I did have it happen once).

So. You have a deck that completely neuters the opponents ability to interact AT ALL. How does it win.

Yes, a deck that does nothing but tie can actually win.

Everyone who enters a tournament can have a 15 card sidedeck. For most decks, you usually have a few 'counters' to other well known decks in the field. The other option (and is an obscure option, but done well it pays off) is to have 15 card sidedeck that completely shifts the focus of the deck into something else. And thats what happens here.

When the 40 minutes is up, neither player has access to their sidedeck. So shortly before time is up (after a game ends, you can access your sidedeck), anytime after the 38 minute mark (players have up to 2 minutes to sidedeck, so you could end a game anywhere from 38:00-39:59 and sidedeck in your win-con. Perfectly legal) after you make your tie game, you would sidedeck in either 15 cards of life depleting cards or 15 card of life gaining cards.

What happens next is that you start this game, and time shortly gets called. At which point the 'End of Match Procedures' come into place. The turn player finishes their turn, the next player gets a turn. Player 1 get 1 more turn. And Player 2 gets 1 more turn. After Player 2's second turn, if no one has won, you go off of whoever has the highest life total. Whoever has the highest life total wins that game.

So, during YOUR two turns, you throw out some cards that gain point on your end, or reduce their points, and have some cards that prevent them from initiating the battle phase--further restricting what they could possibly do. The end result would be a few hundred points difference in your favor.

THEN

The gamestate then checks to see who has won the most games within a match, assuming neither player has already won 2 games.

Since no one won a game during the initial 40 minutes, and you won a game as per the end of match procedures, the gamestate recognizes that you won 1 game, and your opponent won zero games, and you would win the match this way. You literally boil a 40+ game down to TWO turns per player.

Whats better was this deck was completely legal for 5 years until they banned Self-Destruct Button in, I think, 2012 or 2013. The assumption is that they banned 'Button in order to prevent these shenanigans in a new sanctioned event that they tried to push pretty hard (tag-duelling), but was very short lived (ironically, similarly built decks that implemented interaction-reduction strategies--but had a more conventional win condition, were a huge bloody problem with tag-duelling and pretty much killed it. Ergo, Button would have not made any impact). Ironically, in Japan (OCG), Self-Destruct Button is at 3. While it's banned everywhere else in the world.
 
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