What do you guys think is good in expanded now?
Discussion Expanded meta
- Thread starter The Last Shaymin
- Start date
I think Unbroken Bonds is going to shake the meta up a bit. Looking over Unified Minds, I'm trying to figure out if any new deck could be a thing. There's some more Item lock options in that set, so theres that.
- Pikachu and Zekrom-GX is still top tier, I don't think there's anything that's released that will usurp it.
- Shock Lock is still an effective control build
- Zoroark-Gx / Garbodor is the 'de facto' Zoroark-GX deck if you're going to run one unless the meta shifts in a weird direction and you're using it's variants like Zoroark-GX / Golisopod-GX as a counter to water.
- Archie's Blastoise is still a strong aggro pick, it might pick up the new Cryogonal for Item lock shenanigans if it's desperate to set up (doubt it, but I'm throwing it out there). Because it's not doing nearly as well as projected, it has become the sort of 'bar' at which you compare the strength of your deck. It's still run in big big numbers, it's just not doing well.
- Rayquaza-GX won the last regional, but I really don't like the deck as anything with any modicum of control element to it shuts it down. Which surprised me that Trevenant Break got second place
- Trevenant is always going to be in a weird spot. It's going to beat a lot of decks because it's difficult to throw in reliable counters. And it beats certain decks by virtue of how they are built. That said, the deck will be a meta call. It's either going to do really good, or really bad. As we have seen it do all season.
- Hitmonchan/Wobb. I've been testing Knock Off Shock Lock against this and I am getting really familiar with how it works. On paper, it doesn't seem like the most consistent deck in the world, but man does it bounce back from sticky situations. It's probably the best 6-prize aggro deck in the format. Jon Eng stated in a meta forecast video, "It's a good deck if you want to go day 2. But not if you want to top 8 with it". The irony is that he top 8's the following Regional with it. IT seems to handle a varied field like a Day 1 Regional, but seems to struggle against people who know how to play against it or just bad matchups. It had a strong showing in Toronto because of the mass wave of PikaRom, but we haven't seen those numbers since, and HitmonWobb has struggled to find it's footing in Day 2s.
- Celebi and Venusaur GX - As long as Archies is popular, this is a good call. Its current, and most successful, iteration uses 4 Wobbuffet and has a similar functioning of a Primal Groudon EX deck.
- Drampa Garb - This is another deck that falls under the "it's only good in certain conditions". It's not an easy deck to run. Whenever it does well, it vanishes and doesn't show up for a long time. That said, if you know what "markers" to look for in the meta, you might be able to predict if it'll make a showing. Specifically, when the meta shifts to special energy and/or Ability centric decks. Like if Zoroark decides to take the meta over again.
For new decks and cards that could make a showing, this is all opinion based and I'm probably missing things, but here we go:
- Reshiram and Charizard-GX - If fire is to make ANY resurgence in Expanded, it's going to be through this thing. Between Blacksmith, Max Elixir, and Expanded's draw options, it might be possible to be doing 230 by T1; 260 with Choice Band. I know for a fact that people are going to throw this into the mix--especially since it has successfully usurped PikaRom in Standard. People might correlate it's success there and believe that it'll translate seamlessly into Expanded. That, or people will play it because they dumped A LOT of money or traded too much to get them and want to get as much out of them as possible.
- Buzzwole & Pheromosa-GX - This is a build with a weird gimmick that seem to be much much better with the tools Expanded has to offer. With a lack of proper Fire decks and the ability to OHKO anything important in Archies Blastoise, this could be a viable contender. And it might be able to hold Seismitoad-EX at bay, so that's a bonus. I mean, a Beast Energy Prism Star and a Choice Band means you can OHKO Toad on T1. And you do 30 to something on the bench, like a Zorua, which puts it within range of it's second attack should it become a Zoroark-GX
- Pikachu and Zekrom-GX is still top tier, I don't think there's anything that's released that will usurp it.
- Shock Lock is still an effective control build
- Zoroark-Gx / Garbodor is the 'de facto' Zoroark-GX deck if you're going to run one unless the meta shifts in a weird direction and you're using it's variants like Zoroark-GX / Golisopod-GX as a counter to water.
- Archie's Blastoise is still a strong aggro pick, it might pick up the new Cryogonal for Item lock shenanigans if it's desperate to set up (doubt it, but I'm throwing it out there). Because it's not doing nearly as well as projected, it has become the sort of 'bar' at which you compare the strength of your deck. It's still run in big big numbers, it's just not doing well.
- Rayquaza-GX won the last regional, but I really don't like the deck as anything with any modicum of control element to it shuts it down. Which surprised me that Trevenant Break got second place
- Trevenant is always going to be in a weird spot. It's going to beat a lot of decks because it's difficult to throw in reliable counters. And it beats certain decks by virtue of how they are built. That said, the deck will be a meta call. It's either going to do really good, or really bad. As we have seen it do all season.
- Hitmonchan/Wobb. I've been testing Knock Off Shock Lock against this and I am getting really familiar with how it works. On paper, it doesn't seem like the most consistent deck in the world, but man does it bounce back from sticky situations. It's probably the best 6-prize aggro deck in the format. Jon Eng stated in a meta forecast video, "It's a good deck if you want to go day 2. But not if you want to top 8 with it". The irony is that he top 8's the following Regional with it. IT seems to handle a varied field like a Day 1 Regional, but seems to struggle against people who know how to play against it or just bad matchups. It had a strong showing in Toronto because of the mass wave of PikaRom, but we haven't seen those numbers since, and HitmonWobb has struggled to find it's footing in Day 2s.
- Celebi and Venusaur GX - As long as Archies is popular, this is a good call. Its current, and most successful, iteration uses 4 Wobbuffet and has a similar functioning of a Primal Groudon EX deck.
- Drampa Garb - This is another deck that falls under the "it's only good in certain conditions". It's not an easy deck to run. Whenever it does well, it vanishes and doesn't show up for a long time. That said, if you know what "markers" to look for in the meta, you might be able to predict if it'll make a showing. Specifically, when the meta shifts to special energy and/or Ability centric decks. Like if Zoroark decides to take the meta over again.
For new decks and cards that could make a showing, this is all opinion based and I'm probably missing things, but here we go:
- Reshiram and Charizard-GX - If fire is to make ANY resurgence in Expanded, it's going to be through this thing. Between Blacksmith, Max Elixir, and Expanded's draw options, it might be possible to be doing 230 by T1; 260 with Choice Band. I know for a fact that people are going to throw this into the mix--especially since it has successfully usurped PikaRom in Standard. People might correlate it's success there and believe that it'll translate seamlessly into Expanded. That, or people will play it because they dumped A LOT of money or traded too much to get them and want to get as much out of them as possible.
- Buzzwole & Pheromosa-GX - This is a build with a weird gimmick that seem to be much much better with the tools Expanded has to offer. With a lack of proper Fire decks and the ability to OHKO anything important in Archies Blastoise, this could be a viable contender. And it might be able to hold Seismitoad-EX at bay, so that's a bonus. I mean, a Beast Energy Prism Star and a Choice Band means you can OHKO Toad on T1. And you do 30 to something on the bench, like a Zorua, which puts it within range of it's second attack should it become a Zoroark-GX
Last edited:
just curious, what's everyone's opinion on malamar/ultra/dusk necrozma's standing in expanded? i stepped away from the game for a minute and haven't seen any talk of it when the expanded meta is brought up but also haven't found any serious issues it has w new decks yet
Last edited:
Malamar has problems in Expanded.
We can start with Malamar's 90 HP and Archie's Blastoise with the whole Towering Splash GX thing.
Ultra Necrozma-GX does seem appealing, but I fear that you'd need to get a good draw and set up quickly to do it and it seems like it'd need to start T1 to stand a chance, otherwise, it'll always be a turn too slow and not be able to keep up.
If Malamar is going to see any play, it'll be when Mew and Mewtwo-GX is released in the next set. And thats assuming you stick to a Psychic Energy-based plan. But I've seen M&M-GX use a few other ideas that are easier to implement with a fraction of the setup.
I don't want to say, "This can't work" in a format as big as Expanded is, but it seems like Tag Teams are well in the future of Expanded and I don't see how Malamar can combat it effectively. When I was in Dallas, I saw a few Malamar decks and they didn't do so hot--and this was before Tag Teams. And I'm not sure what they have gained in Expanded that would give them a significant boost.
The other problem is that Expanded Malamar would be considered rogue, in which any case with rogue, there's not a lot of information for it and you'll have to do a lot of experimentation and research on your end to see if it'll work.
When you say "haven't found any serious issues with the new decks" what decks are you referring to?
I've hit a fair bit of Zoroark/Greninja tag team on ladder, built like the old darkrai decks otherwise, and it looks solid. That 30x reduces the amount of energy it needs to sweep the board to a reasonable level, and between Darkrai-GX's ability, elixir, and dark patch, it's not at all hard to get to that 7 for a GX, and probably not too challenging (can't verify though, not running them personally) to get up to the 9 or 10 for even the beefier tag teams.
I'd agree to a certain extent. I've definitely experimented with Darkrai style decks in the previous off-meta, and I'd say the biggest drawback is that although it isn't difficult to get 7-10 energies in play, it's pretty difficult on the first turn, which means that it's hard to keep up with a deck that does hit Tag Team numbers turn 1 like ReshiZard. That said, Dedenne GX definitely helps that happen so I might have to experiment with that to see if it is possible to get a build that hits those numbers turn 1. Probably needs a fair number of Sky Fields to work, but I could see it working with a really consistent build.
I've experimented with Dusk Mane Necrozma and Bronzong (particularly leaped at the opportunity when I saw the Bronzor in Team Up with the ability as well as Jasmine), and the issue that I usually come across with is the fact that 1. Turbo PikaRom is a threat that is difficult to deal with when it has a steel resistance and 2. I usually find myself getting clogged up hands and benches mid-game, or just straight up needing too many cards to set up (even though Bronzong BREAK is pretty great v 1 prize decks, you need a lot of switching cards and Bronzong on bench to make it happen). Honestly, the main thing that makes Bronzong a little hard to work with is purely the amount of switching needed to make it work, and if you try to do that through rush-in or invasion Pokémon, you sacrifice the bench space you need. It's a great deck when it pops off, but it needs a lot of moving parts to go right all at once.
For now, I've been testing ReshiZard with Volcanion EX, and holy crap does it hit numbers. Really loving that deck right now and think that will be a big contender.
thanks for your input!
first off - oops i wrote dusk instead of dawn. my list is malamar / dawn wings / ultra necrozma
i ask because i'm pretty attached to my list. it runs well, by my standard. i'd say i win like 5/6 games on PTCGO but i'm also not sure if that's an accurate gauge for the meta because i haven't been to an irl tournament since like 2014.
i'm curious about your remark re: malamar's hp being problematic, is that to say that viable decks won't use any tech w/ hp below 100? or just that its risky to have lower-hp cards be the core of the deck.
as far as tag teams, i'm definitely still getting used to having them around, but have not seen them as too much of a threat against anything i'm playing. in my malamar i usually just stall a few turns until i can get enough energy on a ultra necrozma to ohko, or i guzma around them and target leles or whatever else they're playing.
idk, i'll keep playing around with it, was mostly just checking to see if there was like, a particular deck in format that made malamar completely non-competitive, or any new cards from the last few sets i should be adding to my list to keep up with the meta. i will definitely take a look at the new mew/mewtwo you mentioned
Malamar having 90 HP means that Archie's Blastoise will turn your deck into festive, purple confetti. They all utilize Magikarp and Wailord-GX, and it's GX attack can wipe out Benches. Lik,e I'm not sure how you recover from Towering Splash GX.
Archie's Blastoise is one of the top decks currently in competitive expanded. It's not top-top tier, but it's basically the "barrier of entry"; the bouncer of a club that keeps the tier 2 and tier 3 stuff out of the Uber Section.
Pikachu and Zekrom-GX is another issue as they can Guzma up a Malamar and use Tag Bolt GX to knock out a huge support strut.
Reshiram and Charizard-GX is looking like it might be a thing in Expanded. Yes, Ultra Necrozma-GX can hit those numbers--after you get set up. ReshiZard might be able to set up faster and they can one-shot anything you throw at them.
The only Tag Team deck thats played in Expanded that you might have a good match against is Celebi and Venusaur-GX, as they are very tanky and slow. They rely on opponents not being able to OHKO the beast, as if you don't, they just heal their way into safe numbers again. And you have Float Stones and Invasion to take care of Hazard Pollen shenanigans, so that might actually be a favored matchup. That said, Celebi and Venusaur-GX is kinda-sorta rogue territory. But it has some pretty good success and good decklists to back itself up.
In Unified Minds, I'm sure you're going to face Mew and Mewtwo-GX decks and I have seen about a dozen iterations of how they should be handled.
I think Malamar thrives in Standard where it does have that room to breathe and set up, as well as the rest of the format not being a min/max consistency/damage contest.
Again, not saying it's impossible. Mainly because aggro is not my wheelhouse and Malamar isn't something I've worked with extensively (that's more @Rukan Shao territory). I will say that if you're going towards an Energy acceletation route in current Expanded, it's either Pikachu and Zekrom-GX or Archie's Blastoise. I'm not sure how to make Malamar better and able to compete in the face of the oncoming wave of Tag Team builds; there's a lot riding against it.
If you're still on the Malamar train, I would HEAVILY encourage you to proxy up some of the Day 2 decks from Hartford and throw them at Malamar. This way, you get a good idea of how those decks operate and you learn what you could possibly change in your decklist. At least, this is assuming you don't want to rely on throwing it against ladder matches (which I have heard stories of good decks losing to weird weird stuff no one will ever ever see). The biggest hurdle to proxy testing is removing your bias from you wanting a certain deck to succeed. Once you play both decks as if you are playing an actual game (as well as being able to rewind moves at will--again, without bias) and you can do this without bias towards the deck you want to win, you can gain incredibly valuable insight.
There isn't much a substitute for player-to-player testing, but proxy testing might be the way to go.
I didn't make day 2 at Hartford, but I didn't do too horribly. I made it all the way to the win and in, and then got paired into shock lock for the loss.
Archiestoise is bad for sure, but I managed to beat the one i ran into at Hartford. Lost G1 to the T1 towering splash, sure. But if you can dodge the towering splash, you can setup a checkmate board state where you win even if they towering splash you. Which is what I did games 2 and 3 to win that best of 3. They can't get the T1 towering splash that often.
Pikarom you just beat if you set up fast enough, I went 50% against them.
But, not much malamar can do against shock lock. Malamar's inconsistent as is, and cutting a consistency card for a tech feels very painful.
The majority of the loses, aside from the shock lock round, were just consistency loses. I didn't get out enough inkays or I ran out of draw power.
Archiestoise is bad for sure, but I managed to beat the one i ran into at Hartford. Lost G1 to the T1 towering splash, sure. But if you can dodge the towering splash, you can setup a checkmate board state where you win even if they towering splash you. Which is what I did games 2 and 3 to win that best of 3. They can't get the T1 towering splash that often.
Pikarom you just beat if you set up fast enough, I went 50% against them.
But, not much malamar can do against shock lock. Malamar's inconsistent as is, and cutting a consistency card for a tech feels very painful.
The majority of the loses, aside from the shock lock round, were just consistency loses. I didn't get out enough inkays or I ran out of draw power.
It feels like night march will be pretty good as usual. It has great TTGX matchups and Dedenne is better than Shaymin so they can get marchers in the discard even faster.
I believe that Archies Blastoise might be able to team up w/ Pheramosa&Buzzwole TTGX AND Quagsire from DRM to make its tier higher w/ the possibility of 2TKO on Shaymin-EX when going first, Beast Energy, Beast Bringer, AND Laserbank, but until legit proof of strength shows, I may think it's worth league testing, but I don't think of that deck as Expanded tier 1... Is QuagNag a thong in expanded? Can Blastoise PLB replace the Nag part of that deck in Expanded?
As a big fan of Archie's it doesn't need Quag with a big part of that being it makes the deck a bit harder to Archie on T1. I do like the 1 of buzzmosa in the deck it gives the deck another TTGX that they can abuse.
An idea that I keep coming back to is MegaRay since TAE is now a thing and in expanded we have special charge. A full sky field hits for 240 which is enough to OHKO everything but Karplord, Eevlax and Zard.
Mega ray's issue hasn't been energy (it's had mega-turbo with DCE which has been plenty good) but all the GRI sudowoodo being teched for Zoro decks
Sudo is the one thing that I keep coming up with as a challenge for the deck