Discussion Expanded Post-Ban

Christopher Shehan

Aspiring Trainer
Member
Well now that the ban has hit what do we think will be the big decks going forward? It seems like Buzzwole will likely be the BDIF but there seems like there can be some other strong competitors. I believe that ability based decks will see a rise. Decks such as Eels, Bronzong, Malamar and my favorite Archie's Blastoise. Zoro and trev will still be around but it is hard for me to see them super competitive with the loss of their key cards. What decks are you looking forward to playing and what do you think will be strong going forward?
 
I'm seeing a few free attacks Rotom decks online. I'm not sure if they're here to stay but they have lots of tools at their disposal (harhar), lost 2 big counters in Ghetsis and Hex, and got a powerful new toy in Shrine of Punishment. I'll always push Garb as well. It was great but forgotten pre-ban and only gets better post-ban.
 
Rotoms are fun but takes an auto lost to Garb and Toad. Bee revenge could be good as well. Not sure how much Karen and Oricorio there will be. The loss of puzzles hurts might march.
 
Expanded is my jam.

The BIGGEST factor to consider is how much Alolan Muk and Garbodor (Garbotoxin) will be played. The announcement of Hex Maniac being banned got a lot of people thinking that Energy acceleration decks like Malamar, Bronzong, Eels, and Archie's Blastoise could make a huge comeback. Some of these decks (namely Bronzong and Archie's Blastoise) are really decent and could make a splash, so inertia takes effect and Garbodor would make sense to stop these decks in their tracks.

If the meta is oversaturated in Garb, the above becomes irrelevant. If the meta is undersaturated in Garbodor, then Energy acceleration decks are to be expected.

Also, for a regional standpoint, I'd expect about 75% of people in Portland to copypasta what was played in top 32 in Roakoke, Virginia because Expanded is a red-headed stepchild format of sorts.

- Zoroark variants - it's a bit hard to call what will be the superior variant. LonZoroark seems to be the favorite going in because they were including Alolan Muk already. There's going to be ZoroCargo and ZoroEggs. Maybe ZoroGarb. That said, it has been noted that, without Puzzle of Time, the deck doesn't run as clean as it used to. Kinda sucks when you min/max a deck so hard that when you remove some of it's components, it runs like a car at 100,000 miles and needs its first oil change.

- Buzzwole - This is a safe variant to run. Hits hard, goes against Zoroark, super aggressive. And the way it's built can tackle weird stuff like Trevenant.

- Psychic Toolbox - This is the deck that won the October 2017 regional. It looks like a good pick with Buzzwole being a more dominant force and the meta having less resource recovery. The deck is built to play the long-con and can absolutely dumpster decks using Special Energy due to Drampa GX. That said, even pros have noted that its a difficult toolbox deck to run. So if you want to practice with it, start doing it now and not 2 weeks before an event or your future will be filled with tears.

- Trevenant - The only reason why this deck was played was because of the T1 Item-lock donk. Now that Wally is gone, there's not much a reason to play it. IT does gain the new baby Psychic Tapu Lele as something that can mess with their damage counters to score easier KOs, considering that the deck has always had a problem closing games; Tapu Lele can close games a bit faster. I think people are going to play it, but I think Seismitoad variants are a better play.

- Night March - Peter Kica stated on his Twitter that Night March is dead. He's been running Night March forever, so if he says it's dead, I'll believe it. Especially considering that Puzzles became such a HUGE mainstay in the deck and allowed it to play a lot more loose. Now it seems like a complicated aggro deck with little recovery and REALLY vulnerable to Karen.

- Wailord EX - This is viable for Portland, I have my doubts as to how viable it'll be when Lost Thunder comes out as there are some Grass-type Pokemon who can effectively KO Wailord EX with minimal effort. I'm also convinced that Volcanion will be able to handle Wailord with Blacephalon GX being able to OHKO Wailord EX as well.

- Volcanion EX - More viable now that Hex Maniac is gone. Archie's Blastoise MAY prevent it from being played a lot, but it being able to Lysandre Prism for SIX can REALLY hurt certain builds and cinch games. It think the deck will be more viable with Blacephalon GX and Heat Factory Prism Star in Lost Thunder.

- Seismitoad variants - I'm not sure which is the BEST variant to run, but I like Seismitoad for Portland. Almost no one will run Pokemon Ranger, so as long as you can keep attacking, Item-lock sticks. It's damage output is garbage, but the deck is all about accumulated pressure. I have doubts as to how good it will be in Anaheim and Dallas due to Grass-type Pokemon in Lost Thunder if they become a thing.

- Archie's Blastoise - This is the only Energy acceleration deck that I think will be the best version running into a regional. The deck has a really good matchup spread and can T1 Archie's Ace in the Hole if it has the appropriate components. That said, it doesn't happen often and the deck has a tendency to brick; albeit, not as often as Greninja BREAK. The big issue is that the deck is REALLY tight on deckspace, so anyone that faces it will know pretty much 58-60 cards in your deck.

- Sabeleye/Garb - Anyone that says, "it lost Puzzles, it's dead! Hurr durr!", doesn't realize that the deck was functioning and WINNING before Puzzle of Time was even a thing. Ghetsis was the big card that was preventing this deck from being better. If anything, the loss of Ghetsis helps out WAY more than the loss of Puzzle hurts it. That said, the deck isn't going to be reactive, so you have to make spot-on calls for Junk Hunt every turn. Garbodor helps with Ability-lock, so there's that. I will say this, unless you are practicing with the deck now, or are already good with the deck, don't consider it for Portland 2 weeks before the event. I've been playing control decks since 1998 and I've been running Sableye-Garb and a Sableye variant off and on for the last year. The deck is hard to pilot.

- Rotoms - I have heard that these are seeing a bit of play on PTCGO. With Trevenant and Seismitoad potentially being a thing, I'd be wary of playing them unless you ABSOLUTELY KNOW FOR SURE that your meta/regional meta won't have them.
So let's say they aren't in the meta, Garbodor and Alolan Muk will be a thing and any deck you face that has them is like writing a blank check to them for a free win. As much as I want Rotoms to be a thing, let memes be memes.

I remember the Japanese player that played Hippopotas + Electrode GX and ran DEEP in a Japanese tournament said that the deck only works in 'best of one' like a League Challenge or a Cup. But once you start playing 'best 2 out of 3', you're done. It's easy to play around if you know what's going to happen.


I'm sure there's some that I have left off, if anyone has any suggestions, let me know and I'll update
 
I've been playing Sableye since I first heard about it when I got in the game a few years ago. I consider myself an average player, and a pretty okay Sableye pilot. I would not run it in a day-long tournament. Playing the deck can be exhausting in a best of one league challenge! (definitely not a good place for it anyways). It's incredibly difficult to play well for an extended period of time, even for good players.

Night March will probably experience resurgence every once in a while as people stop playing Karen, but it also seems like it's been powercreeped out.

Buzz is definitely going to be most people's top pick as it has a great matchup spread. It's simple to pilot well, and its power is proven. Plus, it has a partner with a similar spread attack with a relatively rare weakness (Landorus EX)

@Merovingian, think some of the more seasoned players are gonna search their binders for Donphan or Accelgor?
 
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I can't help but doubt the possibility of Archie's Blastoise claiming success. The deck was strong before and after Hex Maniac, the main reason (in my opinion) that the deck went out of favor is because of the ungodly amount of Energy that Keldeo EX needs to take out GX attackers compared to the ease at which Keldeo itself can be OHKO'd. The choice of Blastoise players to remove Black Kyurem EX cost them the ability to, with a simple FFB or Band attachment, knock out these attackers turn after turn at far greater likelihood than Keldeo can or whatever GX attacker is put in its place.

Zoroark will be strong regardless, the synergy with Eggs is too good for it not to succeed. Trevenant does indeed feel weak and I haven't played against any Night March yet to see what has become of it.
 
I can't help but doubt the possibility of Archie's Blastoise claiming success. The deck was strong before and after Hex Maniac, the main reason (in my opinion) that the deck went out of favor is because of the ungodly amount of Energy that Keldeo EX needs to take out GX attackers compared to the ease at which Keldeo itself can be OHKO'd. The choice of Blastoise players to remove Black Kyurem EX cost them the ability to, with a simple FFB or Band attachment, knock out these attackers turn after turn at far greater likelihood than Keldeo can or whatever GX attacker is put in its place.

Zoroark will be strong regardless, the synergy with Eggs is too good for it not to succeed. Trevenant does indeed feel weak and I haven't played against any Night March yet to see what has become of it.

I think new variants of Blastoise use Lapras, Wishiwashi, and strong single-prize attackers
 
I wanted to get some testing in on PTCGO (does this work? What do I tech for?) but it feels like the stronger players are all playing standard to prepare for worlds, been hitting some pretty weak decks... I'm eyeing either an expanded version of the Pidgeot/Garbodor deck I've been playing most of this season in standard (Garbodor only got better, and 170 - 210 with belt - still isn't easy to hit in the early game, so Pidgeot still works in most matchups) or an updated version of the ability-based wall deck I played before Hex was printed. (Old version was Suicune/Pyroar/Aegislash/Latias. Hoopa replaces Suicune, Xurkitree replaces Aegislash. Currently I'm running it as a mill deck and teching in Articuno-GX to knock off even more energy, the old version attacked.)

Don't expect either to become meta, but it'd be nice to know if they're viable rogues... which requires a better idea of what I'll be hitting, 'cause right now it feels really wide-open when I do hit meta, and a lot of my games are against frankly non-viable decks.

EDIT: I definitely am seeing a ton of Rotom. Don't know if that's because it's good or because it's cheap on TCGO, and it seems relatively easy to counter, but maybe it's for real.
 
I've been playing Sableye since I first heard about it when I got in the game a few years ago. I consider myself an average player, and a pretty okay Sableye pilot. I would not run it in a day-long tournament. Playing the deck can be exhausting in a best of one league challenge! (definitely not a good place for it anyways). It's incredibly difficult to play well for an extended period of time, even for good players.

Night March will probably experience resurgence every once in a while as people stop playing Karen, but it also seems like it's been powercreeped out.

Buzz is definitely going to be most people's top pick as it has a great matchup spread. It's simple to pilot well, and its power is proven. Plus, it has a partner with a similar spread attack with a relatively rare weakness (Landorus EX)

Playing any control deck in a regional is going to be a rough deal. But there was that guy who won Utah with it, so it'd doable!

@Merovingian, think some of the more seasoned players are gonna search their binders for Donphan or Accelgor?

It's been a whole since I've heard about that goofy deck.

Accelgor-Wobbuffet - This seems like a convoluted Ability lock deck. The damage is pretty lackluster and your opponent will figure out VERY quickly that Guzma and VS Seeker into Guzma WRECKS your strategy. That and if you do KO anything, they are bringing up something to kick you in the face with.

Accelgor-Stoutland - google Cawthon ran this in Fort Wayne last year. I like this a bit better because your opponent can't Guzma out of Paralysis. This deck later got updated to Shock Lock and that deck won't hold up in a meta full of Garb.

It'll be crazy if the field is undersaturated in Garbodor. But its a WAAAAAAY out there deck for rogue plays.

I can't help but doubt the possibility of Archie's Blastoise claiming success. The deck was strong before and after Hex Maniac, the main reason (in my opinion) that the deck went out of favor is because of the ungodly amount of Energy that Keldeo EX needs to take out GX attackers compared to the ease at which Keldeo itself can be OHKO'd. The choice of Blastoise players to remove Black Kyurem EX cost them the ability to, with a simple FFB or Band attachment, knock out these attackers turn after turn at far greater likelihood than Keldeo can or whatever GX attacker is put in its place.
Zoroark will be strong regardless, the synergy with Eggs is too good for it not to succeed. Trevenant does indeed feel weak and I haven't played against any Night March yet to see what has become of it.
Part of Archie's Blastoise's problem is that it tends to brick really hard. I'm not sure if it bricks AS MUCH as Greninja, but the badness of its bricks are pretty spot on. It's a good Day 1 deck, but it's at the bottom of top 32 this entire season because anyone experienced and knows how to tackle the deck absolutely destroy it.
 
Playing any control deck in a regional is going to be a rough deal. But there was that guy who won Utah with it, so it'd doable!



It's been a whole since I've heard about that goofy deck.

Accelgor-Wobbuffet - This seems like a convoluted Ability lock deck. The damage is pretty lackluster and your opponent will figure out VERY quickly that Guzma and VS Seeker into Guzma WRECKS your strategy. That and if you do KO anything, they are bringing up something to kick you in the face with.

Accelgor-Stoutland - pokebeach Cawthon ran this in Fort Wayne last year. I like this a bit better because your opponent can't Guzma out of Paralysis. This deck later got updated to Shock Lock and that deck won't hold up in a meta full of Garb.

It'll be crazy if the field is undersaturated in Garbodor. But its a WAAAAAAY out there deck for rogue plays.

There's also a Trevenant-Accelgor variant floating around that I like. Not sure if it'd do better than Wobbuffet, but it could catch some newer players off guard. With Mew EX, it can be downright nasty against Buzz.

I definitely agree with most of your analysis though. Guzma's kind of destroyed hit and run strategies :(
 
I have been running Mewtwo Ex in Archie and RayEels. It has been a great counter to those physic weak mons. I'm not sure it the answer the deck needs. Bees with the marchers has had some success for me lately. Marchers mostly to be able to have a better game against buzz and the gang.
 
Night March is still fine for me.

What does not change :
- Consistent deck
- Explosive turn 1
- Massive damages / 1 prize attackers
- 3 / 4 type coverage (depending of Zoroark GX inclusion)
- Weak to Karen / Oricorio
- Autoloss against karen + item lock (Hi toad)

What the deck wins :
- Space for giratina promo that counters both Trevenant and Greninja (favorable matchups now)
- Space for oranguru. You can now destroy wailord, amazing !
- Trevenant can't turn 1 item lock
- Ghetsis is banned
- Zoroark can brick you anymore with the consistent red card / ghetsis.

What the deck looses :
- Puzzle of time : You can still recover pokemons (1 / 2 rescue stretcher), special energies (1 / 2 special charge), dimension valley (play 3 or even lusamine ?), field blower (play 1 /2 and/or xerosic)
- You can't recover battle compressor / ultra balls anymore to discard pokemons. You can play oranguru and theorically you can survive 2 karen in a row with 4 of battle compressor / ultra ball and sycamore (+vs seeker). It's ok to use 1 turn of oranguru if your opponent have to use karen for 2 turns (so he can't draw without things like shaymin that you easily oneshot with joltik).
- Xurkitree is impossible to pass. Play 1 copy of silent lab that you can reuse with oranguru / lusamine.

For me, Night March was good before puzzle of time and as Sableye, will be good and wins a lot after rotation.
It does consistently what it's supposed to do if well played, even with 2 cards made to counter it (oricorio/karen).

Personally, I played the deck with a new build and it's working pretty well.

My non-optimised list is here :

##Pokémon - 21

* 4 Joltik PHF 26
* 4 Lampent PHF 42
* 4 Pumpkaboo PHF 44
* 3 Shaymin-EX ROS 106
* 1 Marshadow-GX BUS 80
* 1 Tapu Lele-GX GRI 60
* 1 Oranguru UPR 114
* 1 Oranguru SUM 113
* 1 Mew FCO 29
* 1 Giratina PR-XY XY184

##Trainer Cards - 35

* 4 Battle Compressor Team Flare Gear PHF 92
* 4 VS Seeker ROS 110
* 1 Dowsing Machine PLS 128
* 4 Professor Sycamore STS 114
* 1 N NVI 101
* 1 Teammates PRC 160
* 1 Lysandre FLF 104
* 1 Guzma BUS 143
* 1 Float Stone PLF 99
* 1 Field Blower GRI 163
* 4 Ultra Ball SUM 161
* 2 Choice Band BUS 162
* 3 Trainers' Mail AOR 100
* 2 Rescue Stretcher BUS 165
* 2 Special Charge STS 105
* 3 Dimension Valley PHF 93

##Energy - 4

* 4 Double Colorless Energy GRI 166

Versus decks in previous posts, it has at least a 50/50 matchup against everything else that Seismitoad or garbodor
 
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I've got BuzzRoc as a backup right now as I'm going to give Archietoise a whirl with the bans in place. My other consideration is the Ho-Oh Blaziken idea that placed in Japan, but the deck is pretty linear so I'll be playing it mainly just for fun I think.
 
I've got BuzzRoc as a backup right now as I'm going to give Archietoise a whirl with the bans in place. My other consideration is the Ho-Oh Blaziken idea that placed in Japan, but the deck is pretty linear so I'll be playing it mainly just for fun I think.


I'd be careful running a stage-2 in Expanded as they are usually a death sentence to speed and consistency.

Buzzroc is a super safe pick.

Archie's has a lot of hype going for it--as well as a good matchup spread, but A LOT depends on how much Ability-lock is going to show up to the fight and it's super vulnerable to Item-lock unless it can T1 Archie's and get something up and be ready to swing heavy next turn.
 
I'd be careful running a stage-2 in Expanded as they are usually a death sentence to speed and consistency.

Buzzroc is a super safe pick.

Archie's has a lot of hype going for it--as well as a good matchup spread, but A LOT depends on how much Ability-lock is going to show up to the fight and it's super vulnerable to Item-lock unless it can T1 Archie's and get something up and be ready to swing heavy next turn.

Yes, I realized after playing Archie’s last night it is going to take me a while to learn how to play it optimally and get that T1 setup.

As for the Ho-oh Blaziken Stage 2-ness, this version uses Ho-Ohs GX to put discarded Blaziken (via battle compressor, etc) directly onto the bench. You then stream the chicken’s attack with Blacksmith. The theory for keeping up with the expanded tempo is there, but I’m not sure on the consistency because deck space it tight.
 
Decks that use Sky Field (Zoroark, Mega Ray, etc.) have taken a big hit with the loss of Hex Maniac. Sudowoodo (GRI 66) is a simple tech that works incredibly well against big bench decks.
 
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