Discussion Expanded Tier List

Magmarco

Magmarco

Aspiring Trainer
Member
So there really isn't a tier list for expanded, and for good reason, with so many decks in the format. But I thought it would be a cool reference for myself and others to have, with the input of others. I personally love expanded so any discussion on it is really cool to me. Please comment on anything additions/deletions/moves you would make to the list, it would really help, the more input the better. There is no specific order of deck within tiers.

*Note: I am trying to find good and current decklists to hyperlink to most of the decks, any help in finding lists for the decks not already linked would be appreciated.

UPDATED: 10/18/17

Tier 1 (Meta-defining decks)

Turbo Darkrai
Night March
Trevenant/Necrozma (Deck that performed at DB did not include Necrozma)
Garbodor/Necrozma/Drampa*

Volcanion/Turtonator
Gardevoir*


Tier 2 (Good decks that struggle against some Tier 1 decks)

Mega Rayquaza
Greninja
Seismitoad Variants (Garb, Seviper, Yveltal, Golisopod*)
WaterBox
Tapu Bulu/Vikavolt*

Golisopod/Garbodor*

Zoroark/Golisopod*

Sableye Disruption
Garbodor/Espeon
Archie's Blastoise

Tier 3 (Usable decks that are less competitive in the current meta)

MetalBox/Bronzong
Metagross*

Turbo Lapras*

Primal Groudon
Raikou Eels
Vespiquen/Flareon
Darkrai/Yveltal
Dark Dragons
Rainbow Road

Tier X (Potentially good decks that are new/untested)

Marshadow Toolbox
Stoutland/Raichu Shocklock
Zoroark/Noivern

*Decks that are newer to the expanded format and are very subject to change based on usage/tournament performance
 
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I agree with all this basically except the tier 3's I have alot of problems with!
 
Regular golisopod decks are good as well tier 2 minimum. Also was darktri a typo or Did you accedntly give darkrai decks a new name
 
@jix99 what problems do you have with tier three?

@Aurajackie what are other golisipod decks in expanded? I'm only really aware of the one that runs garbs. And Darktri is a pun cuz there's three different darkrais now lol.
 
Well expanded is not in any way my most knowledgeable format but think M Scizor has a way better chance than sceptile (i'm assuming Bulu) Tool drop is great but T1 latios is probably not very viable because you are dead if you dont go first which is bad in a best out of three format. Mega manectric and Zygarde make a bit more sense but it's still hard to see them doing a whole lot in the format.
 
Here's what I would fix:

TIER 1:
Trevenant: decks are getting more and more creative with how to deal with Trevenant with specialized techs that render it ineffective. Because of this, it still has problems against Darkrai (unless you get a good setup and Black Ray GX quick), Night March uses Tauros GX, other decks use some weird stuff. Because of this, I'd drop Trevenant to Tier 2. At least, for now it should be tier-2 because everyone is expecting to see it and therefore WILL tech against it. At Fort Wayne, there were only 2 Trev decks that made Top 33 (yes, top 33). Both decks got 33rd and 31st. For as many Trev decks that showed up to Fort Wayne, it has a very poor Top 32 representation.


TIER 2:
Primal Groudon - In slower formats, it did well because the deck being inherently slow wasn't so much a crutch. Now, it is. The format has got a lot faster and Golisopod GX can one-shot it (using switch or something else with a Float Stone). Lusamine WILL help the deck a smidge when Crimson Invasion is released (gets back Beaches), but I don't think it's enough to really bring it out of the hole it's been thrown into. Tier 3

Greninja Break - Golisopod being as big as it is drops this deck to almost unplayable. Unless you can predict that you won't face ANY Golisopod variants. In a regional setting, if you win your first 2 matches, the probability of you facing any Greninja decks drops to 99%

Seismitoad variants - the 3 versions you listed are all pretty much dead because of low damage output. The build Israel Sosa used (Seismitoad/Yvetal) seemed to work at Top 8 at Fort Wayne. At best, Seismitoad EX is best as a tech.....along with Karen.

Vespiquen - There's not much reason to play this over Night March. Deck has become a bit clunky and often bricks, even in capable hands. The only reason you play this is for Eevee-lutions and hitting for weakness. There are definite decks this CAN be good against, but it has inherent consistency problems that prevent it from being better, Tier-3

Raikou-Eels - Deck has become a bit too slow and clunky in the current format. That and anything running Garbotoxin shuts it up. Tier-3



TIER 3:

Yvetal (Seismitoad) and Tool Drop should be higher, like higher end Tier 2 higher. I'm not too familiar with Sosa's build, but Tool Drop is like an aggro-toolbox.

Zygarde is Tier 2. But a bit of a hard one to pin down because so few people run it. It's a good deck in the right hands and Buzzwole GX gives the deck a tiny boost.


The only other deck I'm on the fence with you on is Sableye-Garb (from Tier-2 to Tier-1). Statistically, it has good matchups against almost all the meta (Volcanion-Turtles being the only thing that I know of that's incredibly rough on paper). The only thing is that it has very poor representation in tournaments and regionals due to it having a notoriety of being difficult to run (as a long time control player across several different games. It's not THE HARDEST control deck ever built, but it's up there). But chances are, if you're against someone using Sableye-Garb, they know what they are doing and you're in for a ride. I'm not sure how you stacked your choices to be where they are, but as far as Sableye-Garb is concerned, I can see where it could go into Tier-1 or Tier-2 depending on what your rating criteria is.
 
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Magmarco said:
Untested Potential Rogue Decks
(Spread Decks Necrozma/Weavile/Honchkrow/Koko Promo)
Eels+Eelektrik
Marshadow Toolbox
Click to expand...

You should had Ninja Box to your Rogue list. There is too main criteria for a deck to be considered a top tier deck; being able to beat most decks and consistency. Ninja Box can achieve both of these things. The deck i am playing actually has potential to beat almost every deck on this list with at least 65% win rate average on the long run. Made 19-1 with the deck.

I will agree that this list reflects the format very well. Darkrai being able to hit OHKO on the first turn definitely makes it the top tier contender in this format. I beat Darkrai using Comfey (protecting from the Gx attack) and Jolteon's Flash Ray. The problem is that i need those two pokemon on top of my 2 Rescue Stretcher not being prized in order to have a chance to beat it. Relying on Machamp or Tauros to return the OHKO just won'T happen anymore with a deck able to just OHKO right away.
 
Zoroark GX variants seem very well and capable of doing well in expanded as they have over in Japan.
 
Merovingian said:
Here's what I would fix:

TIER 1:
Trevenant: decks are getting more and more creative with how to deal with Trevenant with specialized techs that render it ineffective. Because of this, it still has problems against Darkrai (unless you get a good setup and Black Ray GX quick), Night March uses Tauros GX, other decks use some weird stuff. Because of this, I'd drop Trevenant to Tier 2. At least, for now it should be tier-2 because everyone is expecting to see it and therefore WILL tech against it. At Fort Wayne, there were only 2 Trev decks that made Top 33 (yes, top 33). Both decks got 33rd and 31st. For as many Trev decks that showed up to Fort Wayne, it has a very poor Top 32 representation.


TIER 2:
Primal Groudon - In slower formats, it did well because the deck being inherently slow wasn't so much a crutch. Now, it is. The format has got a lot faster and Golisopod GX can one-shot it (using switch or something else with a Float Stone). Lusamine WILL help the deck a smidge when Crimson Invasion is released (gets back Beaches), but I don't think it's enough to really bring it out of the hole it's been thrown into. Tier 3

Greninja Break - Golisopod being as big as it is drops this deck to almost unplayable. Unless you can predict that you won't face ANY Golisopod variants. In a regional setting, if you win your first 2 matches, the probability of you facing any Greninja decks drops to 99%

Seismitoad variants - the 3 versions you listed are all pretty much dead because of low damage output. The build Israel Sosa used (Seismitoad/Yvetal) seemed to work at Top 8 at Fort Wayne. At best, Seismitoad EX is best as a tech.....along with Karen.

Vespiquen - There's not much reason to play this over Night March. Deck has become a bit clunky and often bricks, even in capable hands. The only reason you play this is for Eevee-lutions and hitting for weakness. There are definite decks this CAN be good against, but it has inherent consistency problems that prevent it from being better, Tier-3

Raikou-Eels - Deck has become a bit too slow and clunky in the current format. That and anything running Garbotoxin shuts it up. Tier-3



TIER 3:

Yvetal (Seismitoad) and Tool Drop should be higher, like higher end Tier 2 higher. I'm not too familiar with Sosa's build, but Tool Drop is like an aggro-toolbox.

Zygarde is Tier 2. But a bit of a hard one to pin down because so few people run it. It's a good deck in the right hands and Buzzwole GX gives the deck a tiny boost.


The only other deck I'm on the fence with you on is Sableye-Garb (from Tier-2 to Tier-1). Statistically, it has good matchups against almost all the meta (Volcanion-Turtles being the only thing that I know of that's incredibly rough on paper). The only thing is that it has very poor representation in tournaments and regionals due to it having a notoriety of being difficult to run (as a long time control player across several different games. It's not THE HARDEST control deck ever built, but it's up there). But chances are, if you're against someone using Sableye-Garb, they know what they are doing and you're in for a ride. I'm not sure how you stacked your choices to be where they are, but as far as Sableye-Garb is concerned, I can see where it could go into Tier-1 or Tier-2 depending on what your rating criteria is.
Click to expand...

I think you are probably right on Trevenant. Many of the top tier decks do have trouble with it and it is becoming less relevant in the meta as far as I've noticed. I was unaware of the list for Fort Wayne so hearing about performances at that is actually really helpful, I'll have to look up the Top 32.

I'm not sure how I feel about Prinal Groudon yet, because while it is slow, if it gets going it's really difficult to beat. Provided this take a lot of luck and setup, i.e. starting with Wobb in the active and being able to get a beach and energy in play early. But because it is super slow against a rapid meta I'll agree with you until I see evidence otherwise.

Provided I mostly play PTCGO and not much of the physical TCG, I probably don't know as much about the popularity of Decks, but I really haven't seen much of Golisopod at all in expanded. So unless he was super popular in expanded like you're saying greninja could remain T2.

I agree Seimitoad is a tech most of the time but it has become somewhat of an archetype, in terms of attacking with quaking punch for item lock and amusing some other form to increase damage (like bats or poison) I have also seen a couple decks in corporate Giratina EX with garb for a look on pretty much everything but supporters, which seems like a cool but not too competitive concept because it's kind of hard to set up all three locks (it's actually impossible to have all three at the same time but you vary between toad and Giratina when needed.

I agree completely with Vespiquen, again I used a reference so that wasn't one I carried over from that.

I'd also like to see a list for Yveltal/Toad that sounds like a really interesting deck and inn unfamilair with it.

Sableye/Garb doesn't have good matchups most of the time but I'm just not siren it's a tier 1 deck, darkrai is self efficient enough to bypass the lock most of the time, it's probably a 50-50 with night march purely base does on who can set up first but I would favor sableye garb if Karen is teched in which I assume it would be.
 
Magmarco said:
Sableye/Garb doesn't have good matchups most of the time but I'm just not siren it's a tier 1 deck, darkrai is self efficient enough to bypass the lock most of the time, it's probably a 50-50 with night march purely base does on who can set up first but I would favor sableye garb if Karen is teched in which I assume it would be.
Click to expand...
Night March is a free win for Sableye. They have to discard a ton of cards and go through a lot of their deck in order to get setup. Recycling Life Dew is also crucial here. E Hammer and milling just completely win this matchup.
 
FlavorfulPineApl said:
Night March is a free win for Sableye. They have to discard a ton of cards and go through a lot of their deck in order to get setup. Recycling Life Dew is also crucial here. E Hammer and milling just completely win this matchup.
Click to expand...
Beleive it or not I have seen NM beat sablete although it is unlikely!
 
FlavorfulPineApl said:
Night March is a free win for Sableye. They have to discard a ton of cards and go through a lot of their deck in order to get setup. Recycling Life Dew is also crucial here. E Hammer and milling just completely win this matchup.
Click to expand...

Is there really anyway for Night March to counter Sableye? Could Marshadow help at all?
 
Merovingian said:
Here's what I would fix:

TIER 1:
Trevenant: decks are getting more and more creative with how to deal with Trevenant with specialized techs that render it ineffective. Because of this, it still has problems against Darkrai (unless you get a good setup and Black Ray GX quick), Night March uses Tauros GX, other decks use some weird stuff. Because of this, I'd drop Trevenant to Tier 2. At least, for now it should be tier-2 because everyone is expecting to see it and therefore WILL tech against it. At Fort Wayne, there were only 2 Trev decks that made Top 33 (yes, top 33). Both decks got 33rd and 31st. For as many Trev decks that showed up to Fort Wayne, it has a very poor Top 32 representation.


TIER 2:
Primal Groudon - In slower formats, it did well because the deck being inherently slow wasn't so much a crutch. Now, it is. The format has got a lot faster and Golisopod GX can one-shot it (using switch or something else with a Float Stone). Lusamine WILL help the deck a smidge when Crimson Invasion is released (gets back Beaches), but I don't think it's enough to really bring it out of the hole it's been thrown into. Tier 3

Greninja Break - Golisopod being as big as it is drops this deck to almost unplayable. Unless you can predict that you won't face ANY Golisopod variants. In a regional setting, if you win your first 2 matches, the probability of you facing any Greninja decks drops to 99%

Seismitoad variants - the 3 versions you listed are all pretty much dead because of low damage output. The build Israel Sosa used (Seismitoad/Yvetal) seemed to work at Top 8 at Fort Wayne. At best, Seismitoad EX is best as a tech.....along with Karen.

Vespiquen - There's not much reason to play this over Night March. Deck has become a bit clunky and often bricks, even in capable hands. The only reason you play this is for Eevee-lutions and hitting for weakness. There are definite decks this CAN be good against, but it has inherent consistency problems that prevent it from being better, Tier-3

Raikou-Eels - Deck has become a bit too slow and clunky in the current format. That and anything running Garbotoxin shuts it up. Tier-3



TIER 3:

Yvetal (Seismitoad) and Tool Drop should be higher, like higher end Tier 2 higher. I'm not too familiar with Sosa's build, but Tool Drop is like an aggro-toolbox.

Zygarde is Tier 2. But a bit of a hard one to pin down because so few people run it. It's a good deck in the right hands and Buzzwole GX gives the deck a tiny boost.


The only other deck I'm on the fence with you on is Sableye-Garb (from Tier-2 to Tier-1). Statistically, it has good matchups against almost all the meta (Volcanion-Turtles being the only thing that I know of that's incredibly rough on paper). The only thing is that it has very poor representation in tournaments and regionals due to it having a notoriety of being difficult to run (as a long time control player across several different games. It's not THE HARDEST control deck ever built, but it's up there). But chances are, if you're against someone using Sableye-Garb, they know what they are doing and you're in for a ride. I'm not sure how you stacked your choices to be where they are, but as far as Sableye-Garb is concerned, I can see where it could go into Tier-1 or Tier-2 depending on what your rating criteria is.
Click to expand...
Zoroark GX keeps Vespiquen in upper T2 IMO; the ability is super strong for the deck and it provides an attacker that can hit 180 (you run Sky Field) after a Karen or while you're still setting up Vespiquen.
 
tiffuts said:
Is there really anyway for Night March to counter Sableye? Could Marshadow help at all?
Click to expand...
Ugh....no it doesn't help. All it really does is provide a nice Lysandre target for milling and stalling. There really is no "counter" to Sableye at all; in any deck. Most of the time you have to play smarter than the Sableye player. Thats hard to do, as most Sableye players are very skilled and know the deck extremely well.
 
FlavorfulPineApl said:
Ugh....no it doesn't help. All it really does is provide a nice Lysandre target for milling and stalling. There really is no "counter" to Sableye at all; in any deck. Most of the time you have to play smarter than the Sableye player. Thats hard to do, as most Sableye players are very skilled and know the deck extremely well.
Click to expand...

What if, and it's a big if, you tech in the new latios and manage to get just like a constant lucky stream of DCEs. I'm just spitballing really though, I've only played against one sableye deck and I'm hoping not to see too many more. On a side note, would Koko or latios be good techs in night march to get benched Pokémon into OHKO territory for an underdeveloped march?
 
tiffuts said:
What if, and it's a big if, you tech in the new latios and manage to get just like a constant lucky stream of DCEs. I'm just spitballing really though, I've only played against one sableye deck and I'm hoping not to see too many more. On a side note, would Koko or latios be good techs in night march to get benched Pokémon into OHKO territory for an underdeveloped march?
Click to expand...
Nah, as most time Night Match gets one shots anyway, very quickly. And knocking out more than one Sableye at a time is annoying. Most the time energy won't stick though
 
I feel like Gardy should be Tier 1, personally. Given its recent top 8 placement in Fort Wayne from Jac Carter it shows that, at least in a Turbo Dark, Night March, and Trev heavy format it can excel.
 
On 10/18 update:

I took into account everyone's inputs and recent performance at the Daytona Beach Regionals to edit the list.

A few comments:

Garbodor/Necrozma has undeniably reached Tier 1 with its performance at DB and is a great deck with its versatility and its ability to adapt to whatever it faces.

Gardevoir is another great deck in Expanded. I am hesitantly putting it in Tier 1 because I think it is a great deck but it is a little slow for Expanded, so we will see how it performs in the future. 4/32 in the Top 32 for DB isn't too shabby.

I am very excited about Zoroark variants in Expanded (although I am unfortunately a poor boy and won't be playing him for awhile). Zoroark and Golisopod have already placed in DB and other variants may rise as well. Lycanroc Midnight Forme seems like a cool partner and as @GekkisaiDaiNi mentioned, it seems great partnered with Vesipquen too. Although with the large presence of Karen and Oricorio to deal with Night March, I don't think this deck will see much play, unfortunately. Noivern is another great partner as of right now, with the ability to take the item lock route, or more damaging route with Noivern's second and GX attack, in addition to Zoroark's attack.

Seismitoad: I believe I place all the Toad variants in Tier 2, none of them are particularly groundbreaking decks but there is a presence felt by Seismitoad himself. Personally, I feel Seismitoad has enough presence to be considered somewhat meta defining and Tier 1, but there is no deck right now that stands out over the other variants. If there is a rise of one deck over the other variants I will consider moving it to Tier 1. I also my remove the bats variant but I like it so it's staying for now haha.

Looking for comments to the starred decks especially, I am very willing to change where they are placed, if at all. I am not sure how these Standard heavy decks will perform in Expanded but who knows.
 
I know that there is no data related to Ninja Box but i can definitely say it can beat all those Tier 1 decks with a good % of chance. I just pulled 15 wins 1 loss and i could 19wins 1 loss another time. Definitely would be up there somewhere if people would actually be considering it.
 
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