Discussion Garbodor

Jonathan Jung

Jonathan Jung

Meta is the Meta
Member
Ban it.

I hate facing it on TCGO, and everyone seems to be playing it.
Plus, 24 of the top 32 decks at this past weekends regionals were running it.

It's too cancerous.

Anyone have any good counter ideas to run against it?
 
The best way to counter it is to use a deck that isn't super item reliant to pump out big damage. In reality, there isn't an easy way to counter it. Its either play that deck, or another Tier 1 deck and get lucky.

Its actually funny you mention how many there are in top cut, I've been telling people this format is ok, but it's quickly going into a Tier 0 format. Not there yet, but close.
 
Don't freak about not playing items. You can play items. The key to beating Garbodor is to not play so many items that your 2-prize Pokemon get OHKOed.

I've noticed that I've gotten away with not playing items because I get N'd all the time. People have started playing more conservatively, running higher counts of N and even playing started playing Professor Birch's Observations since it refreshes your hand without refreshing your opponent's. It's a decent choice if you're willing to roll the dice a little.

I've also started running a slightly higher Energy count so I have extra fodder for Ultra Ball. You can't get around needing Ultra Ball, but what you can control is how you pay for it; by discarding, say, a Supporter and an Energy, you get your Pokemon and only contribute the minimum to Trashalanche's damage.

For tools, try not to have more than one tool in play at any time; this way when they inevitably Field Blower you, they can only add 20 to Trashalanche's damage instead of 40. The exception is if you would discard them anyway with Sycamore; go ahead and attach them then.

As long as you're staying even or ahead on the prize trade, you'll be fine.

Save your Field Blowers for Drampa. A banded Berserk does the magic 180, so try not to let him do it too much. If you can revenge KO him, all the better.

Hope this helps.
 
Ironically, Metagross-GX:

- OHKOs Garbodor cleanly
- OHKOs Drampa (with a band)
- makes you immune to energy denial
- will basically never be OHKOed by Trashalanche
- straight up can't be OHKOed by Berserk

Solgaleo-GX and him are best buds. It's a little clunky, but if you can set them both up, you've basically won.
 
PMJ said:
Ironically, Metagross-GX:

- OHKOs Garbodor cleanly
- OHKOs Drampa (with a band)
- makes you immune to energy denial
- will basically never be OHKOed by Trashalanche
- straight up can't be OHKOed by Berserk

Solgaleo-GX and him are best buds. It's a little clunky, but if you can set them both up, you've basically won.
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LOL nope, I play a meta/sol deck on TCGO, got rekt, a few times
 
Umbreon GX/Zoroark does a good job against Garbodor. Umbreon sits out of Kukui-less K.O range for Drampa, even with a choice band, and has Resistance to Garbodor. Zoroark BREAK can copy Trashalanche and normal Zoroark can hit a fair amount of damage as well. Umbreon can kill two Garbs with Shadow Bullet, Lysandre, and then Shadow Bullet again. Not to mention, Zoroark/Zoroark BREAK is a one prize attacker that can deal a decent amount of damage, and factoring in Resistance, it takes garb 8 Items to OHKO as the BREAK sits at 160HP, which is easy for the deck to play around, not to mention Zoroark BREAK can also copy Beserk, which OHKOs Drampa with Choice Band. Umbreon also can handle Drampa as they exchange two-shots. Here's a list:

Pokemon (20):

3x Umbreon-GX
1x Flareon AOR
4x Eevee
2x Zoroark BREAK
3x Zoroark
3x Zorua
1x Wobbuffet (Strafing into it is a good option)
2x Tapu Lele GX
1x Oranguru

Trainers (31):

4x Sycamore
4x N
1x Brigette
1x Kukui
1x Lillie
2x Lysandre
4x VS Seeker
4x Ultra Ball
1x Super Rod
1x Field Blower
1x Special Charge
4x Choice Band
2x Float Stone
1x Atlar of the Moone or Reverse Valley (Reverse Valley only helps the math against Solgaleo, which could be significant as with Flareon, Choice Band, and Reverse Valley, Shadow Bullet OHKOs, but is useless against most everything else, so I'd opt for Atlar of the Moone Also, I know one Stadium is iffy, but we do have Field Blower.)

Energy (9):

5x Darkness Energy
4x DCE

Also, DeciPlume is WAY more cancerous than Garbodor IMO. Garb doesn't win games by going first and shutting you down.
 
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Jonathan Jung said:
I think there was 1 in the top 32 at the washington regionals
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Either way, DeciPlume is beyond worse than Garb. It probably only took one place because there was so much hype directed at Garb that only one person played it. I honestly would rather fight Sylveon or Garb than DeciPlume, its one of the most disgusting decks in the format right now, no matter how many people play it.
 
Well, both Deciplume and Garb are two huge meta decks. When SM came out, deciplume was the deck to betaif you wanted to win a lot of tournaments. Now, garb is out and it is the deck to beat if you wanna win tournaments. I'm not sure excatly how you can beta it easily or maybe some rogue deck that can win against other meta decks and especially garb, but yeah.
 
Jonathan Jung said:
LOL nope, I play a meta/sol deck on TCGO, got rekt, a few times
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that's because you're trying to run two stage 2 lines in the same deck. Solgaleo/Rayquaza and Metagross-GX are both great decks against Garbodor when played separately. I get why people put them together since Metagross is kind of like Bronzong PHF, but without FOGP support like Decidueye has you simply can't pull off a 2 stage 2 deck consistently.

Metagross should be played with Genesect, maybe Cobalion as a one of. Metagross is both a primary attacker and primary support, Genesect is there for a game closing blast and to hold on to a float stone when you need to sycamore, Cobalion can let you drag it into a 7 prize game. It's not about not playing items, it's about keeping Garbodor out of 2HKO range until you've messed up their field to the point where they can no longer really recover momentum, and the 250hp Steel type stage 2 GXes give you the largest margin of error for that kind of play.

If you don't play items against Garb you will lose, if you play them like we're still in PRC-SUM you will lose.
 
Kietharr said:
that's because you're trying to run two stage 2 lines in the same deck. Solgaleo/Rayquaza and Metagross-GX are both great decks against Garbodor when played separately. I get why people put them together since Metagross is kind of like Bronzong PHF, but without FOGP support like Decidueye has you simply can't pull off a 2 stage 2 deck consistently.

Metagross should be played with Genesect, maybe Cobalion as a one of. Metagross is both a primary attacker and primary support, Genesect is there for a game closing blast and to hold on to a float stone when you need to sycamore, Cobalion can let you drag it into a 7 prize game. It's not about not playing items, it's about keeping Garbodor out of 2HKO range until you've messed up their field to the point where they can no longer really recover momentum, and the 250hp Steel type stage 2 GXes give you the largest margin of error for that kind of play.

If you don't play items against Garb you will lose, if you play them like we're still in PRC-SUM you will lose.
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How would beat it then?
 
You beat Garbodor by being conservative with your item/sycamore usages, recognizing that every item you play puts your opponent closer to their win condition, which is usually when you've played enough items for Garbodor to be able to 2HKO your primary attacker. It's not to say you don't get there, but you need to be in a state where you've built a significant advantage on the board before that happens. Beefy psychic resistant cards like Metagross, Solgaleo and Umbreon give you the biggest playable item buffer before that state is reached so they'll be among the best ways to deal with it.

Alternately you play another one prize deck that can trade with it like Gyarados or Vespiquen.
 
An anti Garb thing I've been testing is 4 Sycamore 4 N no Trainer Mail so that draw support is consistent and we aren't fueling Garb. Takes a good chunk of Garb's damage away. Like @Kietharr said, one prize decks also do well against Garb. However, Garb can easily tech Promo Tapu Koko/Azelf XY142 or Oricorio against Gyarados and Vespiquen.
 
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Kietharr said:
Metagross should be played with Genesect, maybe Cobalion as a one of. Metagross is both a primary attacker and primary support, Genesect is there for a game closing blast and to hold on to a float stone when you need to sycamore, Cobalion can let you drag it into a 7 prize game. It's not about not playing items, it's about keeping Garbodor out of 2HKO range until you've messed up their field to the point where they can no longer really recover momentum, and the 250hp Steel type stage 2 GXes give you the largest margin of error for that kind of play.
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I don't really agree with this. I had this conversation with a couple people at my locals, they were trying to find a partner for Meta-GX. Cobalion, Solgaleo, Scizor, Genesect, even Magearna, but I mentioned him as a solo attacker with either Tauros or Tapu-Lele as a back up if needed. The thing is, I think everyone forgot that he can attach psychic energy as well from him ability. Ive been playing with a list that uses Alter of the Moone and a 8-4 Metal/Psychic Energy line, and ive found that its actually quite consistent. You use Alter to give them a 1-Retreat cost, then pitch the Psychic off the active to reset another Metagross for Giga Hammer, use the ability to attach a Psychic, and repeat as needed. The ONLY benefit I see to having Genesect as an attacker, is that he can OHKO 190-210 HP targets with Band and Kukui whereas Metagross can only OHKO 180-200HP target with Band+Kukui.

I did a breakdown of Metal Pokemon as a whole here: http://www.pokebeach.com/forums/threads/metal-the-forgotten-type-sylveon-hate.140319/
 
I made another deck with meta as the sole attacker, and so far 1-1 with it, I'll post the list later for discussion.
 
GekkisaiDaiNi said:
An anti Garb thing I've been testing is 4 Sycamore 4 N no Trainer Mail so that draw support is consistent and we aren't fueling Garb. Takes a good chunk of Garb's damage away. Like @Kietharr said, one prize decks also do well against Garb. However, Garb can easily tech Promo Tapu Koko/Azelf XY142 or Oricorio against Gyarados and Vespiquen.
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I can't help but feel some schadenfreude as counters to Night March and/or Vespiquen that I said we didn't really need may end up helping their successor. Their successor that some (many?) of the same people who complained about Night March/Vespiquen are now complaining about.

Sadly, I can't offer any new insights, but the basic premise of "Don't panic!" is the first and most important step.
 
Otaku said:
The basic premise of "Don't panic!" is the first and most important step.
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I couldn't agree more.

Garbodor has almost single-handedly changed the way we should be approaching the game. That approach starts with deck building! If you know that Garbodor is rampant on PTCGO, tailor your decks to cope - for example, reduce your Item counts and up your Supporters (shuffling Supporters such as N, Hala and Professor Birch's Observations are especially useful).

Secondly, as others have suggested, play more conservatively with your Item cards. We're going to end up with a slower game as a result (at least in the short term), where burning through your Ultra Ball, Trainers' Mail, Acro Bike engine can and will be punished. Don't fall into the trap.
 
Otaku said:
I can't help but feel some schadenfreude as counters to Night March and/or Vespiquen that I said we didn't really need may end up helping their successor. Their successor that some (many?) of the same people who complained about Night March/Vespiquen are now complaining about.

Sadly, I can't offer any new insights, but the basic premise of "Don't panic!" is the first and most important step.
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Absolutely true. After all, it's just a piece of cardboard. It is also pretty ironic that counters to decks that needed counters years ago for people that hated those decks then are helping the decks that people hate now. The only thing that makes Garb different from, say, Night March, is that it forces your opponent to play/deckbuild with it in mind which is probably a good thing TBH. However, if TPCI releases a card that goes something along the lines of,"Shuffle all Item cards from your discard pile into your deck" that card would be absolutely busted and would be in every deck not just because it counters Garb but because it would obviously just be flatout ridiculous, unlike TPCI releasing something like Oricorio that serves only to counter Night March/Vespiquen and is useless elsewhere.
 
I don't think they'd print a trainer card like that because of VS Seeker, which is the real reason that LTC got banned imo. Once you can shuffle items back into your deck you get endless game problems due to that card, which unless it gets a specific ban will be in expanded for a long time.

Garde's GX move is probably the closest effect to that we'll get. And that will make it pretty good imo. I don't know whether people will play Xerneas BREAK or M-Garde PRC with it, but without Lysandre slow rolling energy accumulation decks get a lot more playable and it won't take much to get either of those cards in OHKO range for Garb.
 
GekkisaiDaiNi said:
It is also pretty ironic that counters to decks that needed counters years ago...
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More so when you realize those decks didn't truly need counters, getting us back to how the most important thing here with Garbodor is to learn what you can do. ;)

Kietharr said:
I don't think they'd print a trainer card like that because of VS Seeker, which is the real reason that LTC got banned imo.
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My reason I can't agree with your statement is
  • Many of the problems involving Lysandre's Trump Card applied even without VS Seeker.
  • Vs Seeker was from the same expansion.
  • Vs Seeker was a reprint, so they have past experience with it.
I am not saying they created a ban-worthy card on purpose, but I am saying the lack of foresight required has been demonstrated multiple times.
 
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