General Empoleon Discussion

[Baby_BI]

I came 2nd at a Regionals here in Denmark (hurray!). In the finals I come up against a Empoleon deck and I see that as a hard counter to my Blastoise deck, so I wondered if there was a specific card any of you guys use to make this matchup a lot easier? Or if you could help me find a card which fits these requirements I would love it:

>Lightning type
>Most at MAX cost 1 lightning and 3 colorless or water energies
>130 hp would be the best
>Capable of dealing 70 without hurting itself.
>Basic

I have only seen 1 card so which fits these and that is Zekrom.


Changed thread to the General Empoleon Discussion ~Camoclone

 

[littywitty]

RE: Counter for Empoleon?

Zapdos NXD, almost fits all requirements, except it has 120 HP which can be a pain but can be worked around easily with bench space.

 

[DNA]

RE: Counter for Empoleon?

Does the nuke not serve you well?

 

[Baby_BI]

RE: Counter for Empoleon?

Zapdos is very random so it might not be completely safe.
"The Nuke" doesn't help a lot. My opponent will win the prize trade that way, and I lose way to many energies on it.

 

[Camoclone]

RE: Counter for Empoleon?

I don't feel that you actually need to tech against Empoleon. The deck isn't widely played and it has a bunch of bad match-ups. You probably won't see it at any of the top tables often. However if you do play against it with Blastoise then you just attack with Keldeo EX. For 5 water energy it can 1-shot Empoleon. Now this may seem like a lot an an uneven trade however remember that Empoleon is a stage 2 and is hard to get out. They 2 shot you and you 1 shot them. You can also use BKEX to 1-shot them as DNA said before. The matchup really depends on who gets the first KO. I believe that matchup is 50-50 or so however it really isn't worth teching against.

 

[Baby_BI]

RE: Counter for Empoleon?

I don't feel that you actually need to tech against Empoleon. The deck isn't widely played and it has a bunch of bad match-ups. You probably won't see it at any of the top tables often. However if you do play against it with Blastoise then you just attack with Keldeo EX. For 5 water energy it can 1-shot Empoleon. Now this may seem like a lot an an uneven trade however remember that Empoleon is a stage 2 and is hard to get out. They 2 shot you and you 1 shot them. You can also use BKEX to 1-shot them as DNA said before. The matchup really depends on who gets the first KO. I believe that matchup is 50-50 or so however it really isn't worth teching against.

It won 3 regionals this weekend in Europe. I can in no way see it as a 50-50. Yes, you can use BKEX but you would have to take 6 KO's with it making that 19 energies if it has to be done with 1 (which it ofc doesn't). All they Empoleon deck needs, is Piplup Rare Candy Empoleon energy. What you need is Squirtle rare candy blastoise BKEX and 4 energies 1 of them being lightning you lose the prize trade if you miss just a single turn of attacking and KO'ing something

EDIT: Lets say we tech in that Zekrom and take a KO on the opponent's Empoleon. If they can't KO it back (which they can only do with Terrakion if you keep a low bench) then you pretty much win the game from there since you can KO another Empoleon. And if they manage to KO your Zekrom then the prize trade is ruined for them since they would have to take that 7th prize card.

 

[TuxedoBlack]

RE: Counter for Empoleon?

I believe Zapdos (already suggested, also provides F Resistance assuming the Empoleon deck players are running some protective F Poké), Zekrom (LT) or Zekrom EX would work. Attaching an Eviolite to the Zekrom helps too - if you can make the room in your deck.

Btw, are you running Max Potions, and are the Empoleon deck players running LaserBank and Silver Bangle?

 

[Baby_BI]

RE: Counter for Empoleon?

I believe Zapdos (already suggested, also provides F Resistance assuming the Empoleon deck players are running some protective F Poké), Zekrom (LT) or Zekrom EX would work. Attaching an Eviolite to the Zekrom helps too - if you can make the room in your deck.

Btw, are you running Max Potions, and are the Empoleon deck players running LaserBank and Silver Bangle?

I am making room for a Max Potion, and they run Silver Bangle, not LaserBank. The problems with Zapdos is the 120 hp and the flip chance. You got a 50/50 chance of making a OHKO on Empoleon if you don't, waste of a turn. If you flip all 4 tails (what are the odds I know but the chance is there) you lose a prize4 energies and earn nothing, not even dmg. The 120 to 130 h pis crucial with 12 pokemon in play empoleon does 120. Mewtwo with DCE plus Zapdos' 4 energies make 120. You see my problem with it?

 

[MountainDrew]

RE: Counter for Empoleon?

I believe Zapdos (already suggested, also provides F Resistance assuming the Empoleon deck players are running some protective F Poké), Zekrom (LT) or Zekrom EX would work. Attaching an Eviolite to the Zekrom helps too - if you can make the room in your deck.

Btw, are you running Max Potions, and are the Empoleon deck players running LaserBank and Silver Bangle?

I am making room for a Max Potion, and they run Silver Bangle, not LaserBank. The problems with Zapdos is the 120 hp and the flip chance. You got a 50/50 chance of making a OHKO on Empoleon if you don't, waste of a turn. If you flip all 4 tails (what are the odds I know but the chance is there) you lose a prize4 energies and earn nothing, not even dmg. The 120 to 130 h pis crucial with 12 pokemon in play empoleon does 120. Mewtwo with DCE plus Zapdos' 4 energies make 120. You see my problem with it?

You can maybe tech in one silver bangle for Zapdos, because then you don't have to use Zapdos's flippy attack and you can use the sniping attack to OHKO Empoleon.

 

[DNA]

RE: Counter for Empoleon?

You can maybe tech in one silver bangle for Zapdos,

It's Empoleon, not Empoleon EX.

The reason Empoleon can do as well (?) as it does is that it will always have an advantage in prize trade. Having played it for a bit recently (a friend was nice enough to lend me his), that is the main draw of the deck - your opponent must KO 6 Pokemon.
I looked through stuff myself and, other than Black Kyurem (both mini and EX), Zapdos, and Zekrom, I did not find anything matching your description. Of those, Zekrom is probably the best, though you may want to invest in Eviolite if you go that route, since if you Bolt Strike, you leave yourself open to a subsequent Attack Command. Black Kyurem (mini) is nice, but Flash Freeze only does 100, which can't OHKO.

If you don't go the route of Zekrom, then use Keldeo + 5 Energy or Black Ballista to score OHKOs and apply as much pressure as you can. Energy Retrievals (normal and super) are going to aid you a lot in this matchup, since you need to score KOs as often as you can. However, even with Silver Bangle, they only 2HKO you at best, so if you score 2 KOs with Keldeo by that time, your prize trade will be even. Though, if you want to go for an edge in the prize trade...then yeah, use Zekrom and invest in some Eviolites.

 

[Serperior]

RE: Counter for Empoleon?

I feel like this thread should discuss Empoleon in general. Thanks to Mime and Catcher errata, this card is actually strong unless you open realllllly poorly and get donked by Thundurus or something.

Of course, you can also limit the Bench space you've got as well. For Darkrai, it shouldn't be an issue. Plasma and Blastoise might have problems, but with the amount of damage output, you shouldn't be having the worst of troubles.

 

[MountainDrew]

RE: Counter for Empoleon?

You can maybe tech in one silver bangle for Zapdos,

It's Empoleon, not Empoleon EX.

Haha I forgot about that.

I was looking through my binder trying to find a solution for you and the best I could find was this guy:

You can OHKO Empoleon with this guy's second attack and you don't get OHKO'd by Empoleon like Zapdos does or BW Zekrom after a Bolt Strike.

 

[Serperior]

RE: Counter for Empoleon?

That's a four-Energy attack. That'll take you at least three turns to charge up if you play DCE. If you're willing to let your opponent take a couple of Prizes in the meanwhile then...ok.

 

[DNA]

RE: Counter for Empoleon?

That's a four-Energy attack. That'll take you at least three turns to charge up if you play DCE. If you're willing to let your opponent take a couple of Prizes in the meanwhile then...ok.

In Blastoise?

 

[scREAM]

RE: Counter for Empoleon?

List is tigther than anything... What would you take out to put a 1 of Zekrom or w.e your putting in. Like you really don't need a counter for the deck, its highly unlikely you will play against it often and that 1 of tech card becomes dead. You can beat empoleon btw. Not hard.

 

[TuxedoBlack]

RE: Counter for Empoleon?

List is tigther than anything... What would you take out to put a 1 of Zekrom or w.e your putting in. Like you really don't need a counter for the deck, its highly unlikely you will play against it often and that 1 of tech card becomes dead. You can beat empoleon btw. Not hard.

Have you actually played your Blastoise deck against Empoleon? It's not that "easy" either given that the player running Blastoise must take 6 prizes and he/she only has a finite number of Energy Retrievals.

I believe Zapdos (already suggested, also provides F Resistance assuming the Empoleon deck players are running some protective F Poké), Zekrom (LT) or Zekrom EX would work. Attaching an Eviolite to the Zekrom helps too - if you can make the room in your deck.

Btw, are you running Max Potions, and are the Empoleon deck players running LaserBank and Silver Bangle?

I am making room for a Max Potion, and they run Silver Bangle, not LaserBank. The problems with Zapdos is the 120 hp and the flip chance. You got a 50/50 chance of making a OHKO on Empoleon if you don't, waste of a turn. If you flip all 4 tails (what are the odds I know but the chance is there) you lose a prize4 energies and earn nothing, not even dmg. The 120 to 130 h pis crucial with 12 pokemon in play empoleon does 120. Mewtwo with DCE plus Zapdos' 4 energies make 120. You see my problem with it?

I was thinking more along the line of initially sniping benched Empoleons (and/or Terrakions) while having a bench size to prevent a Zapdos KO. Then, Keldo EX could subsequently KO any wounded Empoleon or Terrakion thereafter without your opponent revenge KOing your Keldo EX. This tactic conserves your resources.

 

[Baby_BI]

RE: Counter for Empoleon?

List is tigther than anything... What would you take out to put a 1 of Zekrom or w.e your putting in. Like you really don't need a counter for the deck, its highly unlikely you will play against it often and that 1 of tech card becomes dead. You can beat empoleon btw. Not hard.

Have you actually played your Blastoise deck against Empoleon? It's not that "easy" either given that the player running Blastoise must take 6 prizes and he/she only has a finite number of Energy Retrievals.

I am making room for a Max Potion, and they run Silver Bangle, not LaserBank. The problems with Zapdos is the 120 hp and the flip chance. You got a 50/50 chance of making a OHKO on Empoleon if you don't, waste of a turn. If you flip all 4 tails (what are the odds I know but the chance is there) you lose a prize4 energies and earn nothing, not even dmg. The 120 to 130 h pis crucial with 12 pokemon in play empoleon does 120. Mewtwo with DCE plus Zapdos' 4 energies make 120. You see my problem with it?

I was thinking more along the line of initially sniping benched Empoleons (and/or Terrakions) while having a bench size to prevent a Zapdos KO. Then, Keldo EX could subsequently KO any wounded Empoleon or Terrakion thereafter without your opponent revenge KOing your Keldo EX. This tactic conserves your resources.

Sadly this is where Mr. Mime steps in... I think Zekrom is the best way to go. Without Eviolite 130 is the magical number against Empoleon (Empoleon can deal 120 at max to none-ex and Mewtwo can do 120 with DCE on it when it is attacking a pokemon with 4 energies).

 

[Serperior]

RE: Counter for Empoleon?

That's a four-Energy attack. That'll take you at least three turns to charge up if you play DCE. If you're willing to let your opponent take a couple of Prizes in the meanwhile then...ok.

In Blastoise?

In Blastoise that's not a bad option, but Black Ballista's just as good if not better.

 

[Baby_BI]

RE: Counter for Empoleon?

In Blastoise?

In Blastoise that's not a bad option, but Black Ballista's just as good if not better.

Not if you are against Empoleon.

Here is the math with and without Zekrom attacking.

With zekrom:
With you starting the prize trade: You take 1 prize. They use Terrakion (which is the only way to OHKO Zekrom in Empoleon) to take a prize prizes are now 5-5 You use Keldeo / BKEX 4-5 they attack. No KO still 4-5 you take the next Empoleon 3-5 they attack and KO an ex 3-3 you attack 2-3 they can't OHKO 2-3 you attack 1-3 they attack 1-1 you attack 0-1- you win.

With them starting:
They attack your Keldeo no prize 6-6 you attack 5-6 they attack 5-4 you attack with Zekrom 4-4 they attack with Terrakion again 4-3 you attack with Keldeo / BKEX 3-3 they attack 3-3 you attack 2-3 they attack 2-1 you attack 1-1 they attack and can't KO 1-1 you attack 0-1 you win

Without zekrom:
You starting:
You attack 5-6 they attack still 5-6, you attack 4-6, they attack 4-4, you attack 3-4, they attack again 3-4, you attack 2-4, they attack 2-2, you attack 1-2, they attack 1-2, you attack 0-2. You win!

Them starting:
They attack 6-6 you attack 5-6, they attack 5-4, you attack 4-4, they attack 4-4, you attack 3-4, they attack 3-2, you attack 2-2, they attack 2-2, you attack 1-2, they attack 1-0. You lose.

You see?
With zekrom you win both trades without it you don't. worth the spot if you ask me.

 

[Camoclone]

RE: Counter for Empoleon?

You are assuming that you can't just retreat out a damaged BKEX or Keldeo EX. They will have no way to catcher KO it (unless they run Dusknoir). In pokemon there will be bad match-ups anyways and you don't really need to tech for all of them. If you really do actually win 50% of the time then it is a 50-50 matchup. There is no reason to tech when you could make better use of that space.