Standard Greninja BREAK / Octillery

[BananaShoryuken]

Hey guys! This is one of my first serious attempts at building a competitive, possibly first-tier decks. I'm a huge water Pokémon fan, so when I learned Greninja Break would be something of a game-changer I jumped on the opportunity. Lemme know what you think!

Pokémon: 19

• 3 Greninja Break (Breakpoint, 41)
• 2 Greninja (XY Base Set, 41)
• 2 Greninja (Breakpoint, 40)
• 2 Frogadier (Breakpoint, 39)
• 3 Froakie (Breakpoint, 38)
• 2 Octillery (Breakthrough, 33)
• 2 Remoraid (Breakthrough, 32)
• 1 Seismitoad EX (Furious Fists, 20)
• 1 Manaphy EX (Breakpoint, 32)
• 1 Shaymin EX (Roaring Skies, 77)

Trainers/Supporters/Stadiums: 11

• 3 Wally
• 1 Fisherman
• 2 Skyla
• 2 Lysandre
• 2 Professor Sycamore
• 1 AZ

• 3 Dive Ball
• 1 Ultra Ball
• 3 Trainers' Mail
• 4 VS Seeker
• 2 Professor's Letter
• 2 Rare Candy
• 2 Battle Compressor
• 1 Super Rod

• 2 Rough Seas

Energy: 10

• 8 Water Energy
• 2 Splash Energy

Strategy:

And that's it! The idea is that you can ideally get your Greninja Break out on turn two using Rare Candy and Wally. You might need a Dive Ball, or a Skyla, but that'll save you from wasting a turn using Frogadier's attack, which seems like a cool way to flood your bench with Greninjas the following turn, but honestly leaves you open to sacrificing a prize card in addition to slowing yourself down by yet another turn because you won't be able to get out more than one Greninja Break during that following turn. Since most of those top-tier decks like Mega Man are gonna blast you really quickly, that kind of speed and, therefore, possible damage output, is key here.

Seismitoad can be great both early or late game; Quaking Punch is always a pain, and Grenade Hammer after a Giant Water Shuriken can do some serious damage (190, which is lethal to most EX Pokémon).

Manaphy's ability is great here, considering that the XY Base Set Greninja has a retreat cost of one, and that Seismitoad has a cost of three (ouch!). This will help you swap out one Greninja Break for another, which can lead to some massive damage output with multiple Shurikens (60 and 60 for two water energies, or 60, 60, 30, and 30 for four energies if you're using both Base Set Greninjas- which isn't certain death considering the inclusion of Super Rod or, ideally, Fisherman- and that's all before you even attack! That's a maximum of 230 damage in one turn).

Octillery is a no-brainer here. I have a feeling many decks are going to take advantage of his ability in the coming months. The draw power affords you even more speed and can open up combos beautifully.

Given that both Greninjas require only one energy apiece for each of their attacks, cards like AZ and Splash Energy are invaluable in getting them back to your hand if need be without sacrificing too many energies. AZ in particular can heal you without sacrificing any at all, since the Breakpoint Greninja's Moonlight Slash attack can bring one energy back to your hand whilst giving it a bonus 20 damage! No complaints there.

The biggest problem I foresee is the mirror match. In that case, Breakpoint Greninja's Shadow Stitching attack should be your best friend, provided you can get it off first. Of course, that'll also shut down some other nasty decks too, like Garbodor, Trevenant, Gallade, Fairy Toolbox, and even Octillery and Shaymin! In case of the mirror match specifically, though, you can basically just abuse Shadow Stitching and Greninja Break's Giant Water Shuriken for a rather one-sided match. Piece of cake.

So far as I know, that's all there is to it. Speed, insane damage output possibilities, and one heck of a fight. I hope you all like it!

Oops, I almost forgot! If it's absolutely necessary, you can hypothetically use the Base Set Greninja's Water Shuriken ability twice in one turn: once before you Break evolve, and again after! This is due to the fact that Break evolving not only allows the ability itself to be retained, but also resets its usage for that turn since Greninja Break is technically a new Pokémon! Radical damage, but you'll definitely have to pay for it.

 

[mordacazir]

Oops, I almost forgot! If it's absolutely necessary, you can hypothetically use the Base Set Greninja's Water Shuriken ability twice in one turn: once before you Break evolve, and again after! This is due to the fact that Break evolving not only allows the ability itself to be retained, but also resets its usage for that turn since Greninja Break is technically a new Pokémon! Radical damage, but you'll definitely have to pay for it.

No, the rule book says otherwise.

 

[BananaShoryuken]

No, the rule book says otherwise.

Ah, thanks for pointing that out! Hadn't quite caught that yet. But still, it won't hurt very much without that combo. It won't be often at all (if possible) that even a 230 combo couldn't take down any contender. Well, besides Wailord of course, and those will likely be few and far between I think.

 

[Master Golurk]

Why are you not running 4 copies of XY Breakpoint Frogadier?

 

[BananaShoryuken]

Why are you not running 4 copies of XY Breakpoint Frogadier?

As I mentioned above, I've found that using his cloning attack will typically set you back by at least two more turns when it comes to getting more than one Greninja Break out. The fact that it won't do any damage is one red flag, and since you can only use one Wally per turn you'll only be able to have one Greninja Break that next turn, provided you use it to evolve one of the Greninjas. Hypothetically you could still do some damage on turn three with a Base Set Greninja's Water Shuriken for 30, free retreat if you have Manaphy, hit them for 90 with Greninja Break's two abilities (over a Base Set Greninja), then attack for 50; that's a maximum possible total of 170 damage dispersed as you please. OK, not bad. But that's fairly situational, relying on a significant number of specific cards in hand (3 Water energies, a Wally, two Greninjas of the same set, and a Manaphy on the bench- not very likely so early in the game). So rare candies instead of Frogadiers will help streamline the deck a bit, allowing for some serious speed early game. I've heard many people push for the play set of Frogadiers, but in my playtests it seems that the odds are better in your favor without them all.

 

[PokeDad5]

Here's what I would change (strictly my opinion and reasons why)
-1 Shaymin-EX (not needed with Octillery)
-1 Manphy-EX (Greninja break has 0 retreat cost)
-1 Fisherman (with 10 energies and only needing 1 per Greninja, that's a lot of energies that shouldn't be discarded)
-2 Rare candy (you're going to evolve 1 Froakie turn 1 or 2 anyway, so these arent needed)
-2 Professors letter (you have plenty of energy, not issues finding 1 that you will need)
-2 Splash Energy (not needed for this deck since you run so many of the same pokemon)

Add:

+1 Toad (gives you something to play with in the event you're struggling to get out the Breaks)
+2 Level Balls (easy to get out Frogadier or Octillery if you dont have wally, then you can use dive balls for greninja's, breaks or Toads)
+1 Trainers mail (love running 4, especially if you're looking for a wally or ball)
+1 Sycamore (more cards!)
+1 Birch (to allow you to shuffle back into your deck incase you run into mill or just a hand you dont want to discard, like 2 breaks and you can't evolve)
+1 Startling Megaphone or Xerosic (if they play Garbodor you're screwed. This will keep him quiet)
+2 DCE (for toad)

There's so many different things to try with this deck it's hard to say what will work and wont work. Again, this is my opinion based on my own reasons. I am a little more aggressive of a player which is why I'm willing to risk things like professors letter. I thought about adding float stones so you can move the toad out of the way for Greninja, but you can always AZ him back to your hand and that gets rid of another 2 prize card option for your opponent. I agree with Master Golurk. Running 4 Frogadier is a must in a Greninja deck only because it's probably the easiest, fastest way to get 3 more stage 1's out.

 

[BananaShoryuken]

Here's what I would change (strictly my opinion and reasons why)
-1 Shaymin-EX (not needed with Octillery)
-1 Manphy-EX (Greninja break has 0 retreat cost)
-1 Fisherman (with 10 energies and only needing 1 per Greninja, that's a lot of energies that shouldn't be discarded)
-2 Rare candy (you're going to evolve 1 Froakie turn 1 or 2 anyway, so these arent needed)
-2 Professors letter (you have plenty of energy, not issues finding 1 that you will need)
-2 Splash Energy (not needed for this deck since you run so many of the same pokemon)

Add:

+1 Toad (gives you something to play with in the event you're struggling to get out the Breaks)
+2 Level Balls (easy to get out Frogadier or Octillery if you dont have wally, then you can use dive balls for greninja's, breaks or Toads)
+1 Trainers mail (love running 4, especially if you're looking for a wally or ball)
+1 Sycamore (more cards!)
+1 Birch (to allow you to shuffle back into your deck incase you run into mill or just a hand you dont want to discard, like 2 breaks and you can't evolve)
+1 Startling Megaphone or Xerosic (if they play Garbodor you're screwed. This will keep him quiet)
+2 DCE (for toad)

There's so many different things to try with this deck it's hard to say what will work and wont work. Again, this is my opinion based on my own reasons. I am a little more aggressive of a player which is why I'm willing to risk things like professors letter. I thought about adding float stones so you can move the toad out of the way for Greninja, but you can always AZ him back to your hand and that gets rid of another 2 prize card option for your opponent. I agree with Master Golurk. Running 4 Frogadier is a must in a Greninja deck only because it's probably the easiest, fastest way to get 3 more stage 1's out.

Duly noted on all accounts! I suppose I hadn't thought about the use of Shaymin vs Octillery, and having a Shaymin on the bench (or Manaphy, for that matter) not only prevents me from using other valuable Pokémon but also opens up a new danger when it comes to a hard-hitting Lysandre combo.

However, with regard to the use of Fisherman and Professor's Letter, I always find some comfort in being able to have a bevy of ammunition for Greninja's abilities; Fisherman can be extremely valuable in case I become energy-starved, and so does Letter, since I only run so many energies to begin with and I'll likely be taking advantage of said abilities multiple times each turn. You may be totally right, though, so I'll do some testing and see how it plays.

I also do like Splash Energy for the healing benefits; I can always AZ my Toad if need be so as to not risk surrendering too many prizes, but the Splash Energy helps me to regain the entire Greninja Evolution line without sacrificing very many energies (and, thus, Super Rod or- again- Fisherman should hopefully be there for me by then due to VS Seekers or draw power). Maybe a one-of wouldn't hurt?

As I said, though, I'll definitely take heed of your advice overall and do some serious testing; I'm no professional, and I rarely get to play these days anyway, so any advice is welcome! Thanks for your input.

What are your thoughts on Palkia EX (Breakpoint, 31), guys? He's beefy, he can be searched easily, his first attack allows me to charge up a Toad (or Greninja, for that matter) on the bench, and he's another basic Pokémon (so as not to give my opponent too many opportunities for pluses in their first hand in case I have to Mulligan). His second attack costs a lot, but I'd almost rather use Toad's Grenade Hammer if need be. He can soak up quite a lot of damage if I want him to, and I can always AZ him if it comes down to the wire. I'm not sure, but I definitely like it.

 

[PokeDad5]

I still dont feel splash energy is THAT viable in the deck. Reason is, you're going to have to evolve that Greninja break all over again and I feel that's just time wasted since you really should have 2 or 3 already fully evolved. Plus you're only running 2. With 2 Greninja Breaks on the table you're looking at doing some where around 260 dmg/turn (with Greninja BreakPoints attack) OR I'd rather hit a combo of 1 Greninja Break using both abilities of Greninja XY for 30, Break for 60 more then retreat up a Toad for 30 more damage and item lock! Maybe add switch or escape ropes for the ability to get Greninja back to active?

I dont think you'll need Palkia. Don't over think the deck. Stick with the main strategy of the deck and run with it. If you add too many strategies to your deck you'll find yourself in between every strategy and not able to execute one.

I'll do some testing with your decklist and see what combo's I'm able to come up with.

 

[BananaShoryuken]

I still dont feel splash energy is THAT viable in the deck. Reason is, you're going to have to evolve that Greninja break all over again and I feel that's just time wasted since you really should have 2 or 3 already fully evolved. Plus you're only running 2. With 2 Greninja Breaks on the table you're looking at doing some where around 260 dmg/turn (with Greninja BreakPoints attack) OR I'd rather hit a combo of 1 Greninja Break using both abilities of Greninja XY for 30, Break for 60 more then retreat up a Toad for 30 more damage and item lock! Maybe add switch or escape ropes for the ability to get Greninja back to active?

OK, good deal. So you think eight basic energies and two DCEs? I can get on board with that.

I dont think you'll need Palkia. Don't over think the deck. Stick with the main strategy of the deck and run with it. If you add too many strategies to your deck you'll find yourself in between every strategy and not able to execute one.

Makes total sense. I seem to have that problem of over-thinking my strategies. The reason I considered Palkia in the first place is that a friend of mine is building a similar list (with minor changes), and he was able to get off a few hits with one on me early-game. In hindsight, I suppose it really didn't slow me down enough to hurt that badly, and Rough Seas made that 40 damage look like a flesh wound.

Here's what I would change (strictly my opinion and reasons why)
-1 Shaymin-EX (not needed with Octillery)
-1 Manphy-EX (Greninja break has 0 retreat cost)
-1 Fisherman (with 10 energies and only needing 1 per Greninja, that's a lot of energies that shouldn't be discarded)
-2 Rare candy (you're going to evolve 1 Froakie turn 1 or 2 anyway, so these arent needed)
-2 Professors letter (you have plenty of energy, not issues finding 1 that you will need)
-2 Splash Energy (not needed for this deck since you run so many of the same pokemon)

Add:

+1 Toad (gives you something to play with in the event you're struggling to get out the Breaks)
+2 Level Balls (easy to get out Frogadier or Octillery if you dont have wally, then you can use dive balls for greninja's, breaks or Toads)
+1 Trainers mail (love running 4, especially if you're looking for a wally or ball)
+1 Sycamore (more cards!)
+1 Birch (to allow you to shuffle back into your deck incase you run into mill or just a hand you dont want to discard, like 2 breaks and you can't evolve)
+1 Startling Megaphone or Xerosic (if they play Garbodor you're screwed. This will keep him quiet)
+2 DCE (for toad)

There's so many different things to try with this deck it's hard to say what will work and wont work. Again, this is my opinion based on my own reasons. I am a little more aggressive of a player which is why I'm willing to risk things like professors letter. I thought about adding float stones so you can move the toad out of the way for Greninja, but you can always AZ him back to your hand and that gets rid of another 2 prize card option for your opponent. I agree with Master Golurk. Running 4 Frogadier is a must in a Greninja deck only because it's probably the easiest, fastest way to get 3 more stage 1's out.

Also, why not just 4 Dive Balls and add a single Level Ball? Without Shaymin, the Dive Balls are essentially Master Ball-tier in usefulness; literally every Pokemon can be searched by them, at no extra cost. A single Ultra Ball can be useful in pitching some Supporters or otherwise unnecessary cards to the discard pile from time to time, of course, but I see no downside to having that fourth Dive Ball.

 

[PokeDad5]

Only downside is it takes up more space and do you need it? The turns should be (if you go second) use wally to evolve into frogadier, use his attack to get 3 additional on the board. Turn 4 you're evolving into Greninja either with cards in hand or use of dive ball. Ultimately you're going to want to save a dive ball for Toad. You can use the ultra ball to discard Breaks and save them later or battle compressor them, but then you'd have to run buddy buddy rescuse to get them back. I'm not saying dont put in 4, but you'd have to test to see what works best.

 

[PokeDad5]

I only got to play two matches last night with the deck list. One was against another greninja break and last against M Manetric. Both were losses. I could get the greninja evolved, but did run into energy issues. I'm going to try and add 2 professors letters in and see if that helps out. The bigger issue is I couldn't use octillery ability because I would always have a stage 2 or break in my hand and couldn't get rid of them. Might take out a sycamore and add another birch. It's possible I just had bad draws, but couldn't really do anything with my hand because I didn't want to dump 2 breaks with a sycamore. I'll play around with it some more and let you know.

 

[BananaShoryuken]

I only got to play two matches last night with the deck list. One was against another greninja break and last against M Manetric. Both were losses. I could get the greninja evolved, but did run into energy issues. I'm going to try and add 2 professors letters in and see if that helps out. The bigger issue is I couldn't use octillery ability because I would always have a stage 2 or break in my hand and couldn't get rid of them. Might take out a sycamore and add another birch. It's possible I just had bad draws, but couldn't really do anything with my hand because I didn't want to dump 2 breaks with a sycamore. I'll play around with it some more and let you know.

Awesome, I appreciate the help! I've got a copy of the list that I tweaked a little yesterday so I'll upload it here shortly, maybe it'll be a bit more streamlined.

 

[awesomeMSG]

If you want Greninjas on turn two, the best way to do so is with 4 Frogadier and at least one Wally. I find it the fastest way to get set up. If you go second you use Wally on a Froakie and attach an energy. Then use Water Duplicates and on turn one you have 4 Frogadier in play.

-1 Seismotoad-EX
-1 Manaphy-EX

+2 Frogadier