Discussion Hex Maniac VS Ghetsis

Mora

Mora

Don't Panic
Member
If you have the ability to play both Hex Maniac and Ghetsis on the first turn going first, which one would you go with? Both have merit. You could play Hex Maniac so that your opponent definitely can't play any Shaymin, or you could take a chance with Ghetsis and potentially cripple your opponent right out of the gate. The drawback to playing Ghetsis is that you don't know how many Items are in your opponent's hand until you play it, or whether or not you'd actually be doing your opponent a favor by shuffling back in 3 VS Seekers and leaving them with a Juniper or a Shaymin. I played against Blastoise and couldn't decide which one to go for, so I played Ghetsis and got rid of a Battle Compressor, VS Seeker, and some other stuff, leaving them with one Water Energy.
 
It may depend on how safe you want to be. Ghetesis is risky as it could net you virtually enough, but could potentially force your opponent into dead draw. Hex Maniax sorta doesn't really stop draw, and instead slows it. I reckon that the better play is dependent on how you are going. If you have an okay setup, it may be better to go for Hex Maniac, as you won't put them ahead unlike the potential in Ghetesis. If you have a good setup, however, I'd go with Ghetsis, as even if they get the reward, you'll still be somewhat decently ahead. You'd also want to use Ghetsis if your hand starts out dead. :p
 
I would "tend" to play a:

Ghetsis if my opponent still had a "reasonable" (4+?) number of cards in hand and I assume (from my opponent's Pokemon in play) my opponent's deck relies upon an Item-based engine to setup (e.g., Night March). One other point: if I am playing a Seismitoad EX deck, I would play Ghetsis hoping to remove the Items from my opponent's hand and locking them out on my next turn with Quaking Punch.

Hex Maniac if my opponent's revealed Pokemon (and corresponding hand size) lead me to believe that my opponent's deck seems to rely upon an Ability-based engine to setup (e.g., MetalRay or ToadTina). In this case, opponent's Shaymin EX and Hoopa EX's Abilities are nullified for the turn.​
 
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Ghetsis is definitely the safer play. I don't really care about stopping Hoopa from setting up since he is dead weight after that and is almost unusable later, unlike Shaymin.
 
PMJ said:
I don't really care about stopping Hoopa from setting up since he is dead weight after that and is almost unusable later, unlike Shaymin.
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Hoopa-EX should be used to snag a Shaymin-EX unless your opponent already has Shaymin-EX in hand or they are all Prized. Shaymin-EX is only a little more reusable than Hoopa-EX because Shaymin-EX has an attack for [CC] to bounce itself back into hand; in a deck that can use AZ or Super Scoop Up you can almost as easily reuse Hoopa-EX. I am not saying that Shaymin-EX is not the bigger threat, but that the biggest concern about either card is it getting off its Ability; the fact that one is a little less likely to be dead weight than the other doesn't seem particular relevant to your own point.

So, getting back to the actual question, like @bbninjas and @TuxedoBlack stated, it will depend upon the exact situation. What I believe my opponent is running is relevant as is what I suspect my opponent has in hand. My own hand and field also matter. I also have used either card to cripple an opponent's opening more than once, but I have also had either card barely affect or even help out my opponent. Hex Maniac is overall the better card; shutting down Abilities is more useful (again in general) than shuffling some Items away. First turn specifically? Too close to call.
 
I'm saying it's harder to get Hoopa out of play once he's on your bench. He's also atrocious to start with, whereas you can just DCE and jump outta there with Shaymin.
 
Personally think that Hex Maniac is the better T1 play. Even if Ghetsis nets a few cards, Hex Maniac makes sure that your opponent doesn't get to use their Shaymin EX or Hoopa EX on the following turn as well as any other abilities they may get out on their first turn.
 
Hex Maniac is more likely to give you the game win overall (ie if Giratina-EX, Aegislash-EX or Intimidating Mane Pyroar are giving you a hard time), but my issue is while you do stop them playing a Shaymin-EX, Hoopa-EX, Unown, Slurpuff, Octillery (if they Wally) etc. you're also cutting yourself to about half (or a third with a Shaymin-EX, presuming you come into HM first) of your draw support by not allowing yourself to Prof. Sycamore (or Birch & friends) and if you happen to start with this and Shaymin-EX in your hand one of the two becomes a dead card for a turn minimum.

If Hex Maniac isn't an essential for the deck, I'd definitely be running Ghetsis instead just as my personal style likes to make use of abilities here and there and because basically every deck runs 15-20~ items.
 
MarshalBry said:
Hex Maniac is more likely to give you the game win overall (ie if Giratina-EX, Aegislash-EX or Intimidating Mane Pyroar are giving you a hard time), but my issue is while you do stop them playing a Shaymin-EX, Hoopa-EX, Unown, Slurpuff, Octillery (if they Wally) etc. you're also cutting yourself to about half (or a third with a Shaymin-EX, presuming you come into HM first) of your draw support by not allowing yourself to Prof. Sycamore (or Birch & friends) and if you happen to start with this and Shaymin-EX in your hand one of the two becomes a dead card for a turn minimum.

If Hex Maniac isn't an essential for the deck, I'd definitely be running Ghetsis instead just as my personal style likes to make use of abilities here and there and because basically every deck runs 15-20~ items.
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Ideally you would use Hex Maniac /after/ you use all of your Abilities, and besides, you don't get to Sycamore after you Hex Maniac due to the 1 Supporter per turn clause.
 
First Turn.
I would use Ghetsis against Archies Blastoise, Night march, Siesmitoad/Garitini, and Entie/Chizard.
Very heavy item decks.

Hex Maniac against Tyrantrum/Bronzong and Vespquen.
Tyrantrum uses Hoopa/Shaymin to setup.
Vespequen/Flareon uses unown/Shaymin to setup.

Just what I've noticed from watching cities challenges on playback.
 
PMJ said:
I'm saying it's harder to get Hoopa out of play once he's on your bench. He's also atrocious to start with, whereas you can just DCE and jump outta there with Shaymin.
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And?

The reason for this discussion is that first turn, Ghetsis and Hex Maniac can totally shut down an opponent's set-up if they don't have the correct other cards in hand (or top decked). Decks that run Hoopa-EX don't typically worry about bouncing it; they get what they need and are done with it. If you spend time KOing Hoopa-EX it may even benefit them, as there may be something else on the field upon which you should focus.

I guess I'm not seeing the connection. Use Ghetsis and hope that your opponent can set-up enough to Bench Hoopa-EX but not enough to get any other meaningful set-up going?
 
I definitely think that there are situations where Hex Manic would be better. I've gotten two Expanded decks to where the majority of the times that they don't get the Turn one Hex / Ghetsis going first, it's because I lost the coin flip. I've played Ghetsis on hands with mostly Supporters, Energy, etc. and hands with a plethora of Items plus a Shaymin. I suppose with the latter case, my opponent playing Shaymin for 6 is better than my opponent being able to play a hand full of Items and then Shaymin for 6. I've also noticed that while Hex might have made a given hand dead where Ghetsis wouldn't have, a successful Ghetsis has more lasting detrimental effects for your opponent, while Hex can only buy you a turn at maximum.
 
@Mora I have a city challenge up on my channel where a first turn Ghetsis sends a night march deck on its heels pretty quickly. As I've been recording more, a first turn Ghetsis does have a real lasting affect on the opponent then the Hex. It can set the opponent back the whole game.
 
Well, I believe that both cards could be good first turn, but why don't we think about what each of them have in common, rather than what's different. Both have extreme synergy with Red Card and potentially Hand Scope. Hand Scope would probably be ideal if you play Ghetsis and Hex in the same deck. Playing Hand Scope turn 1 would easily fix the problem of predicting what your opponent has, and most likely making the worse of plays. I'm going to toy with that idea on TCG One now.
 
You'd have to get to it turn one, so you'd need to play more than just one, and then at that point, you'd have to skimp on other cards that you should probably be playing. I think it's better to base the decision of which Supporter to play on which deck you're playing against, and maybe any other cues you might be able to pick up from your opponent about the contents of his or her hand.
 
I was waiting to post on this thread for awhile. Here's my input.
You have to Hex against Blastoise, Vespi/Flareon, and Night March. All of these decks rely on battle compressoring, ultra balls, and other discarding stuff. What people do not recognize is that this does not work without the use of abilities. Blastoise needs Shaymin-EX for draw, Keldeo-EX to Rush In if needed, and obviously Blastoise to attach all of those waters to Keldeo-EX. Vespi/Flareon needs Shaymin-EX and Unown for draw, Audino for healing, eevee to evolve, etc. While they get a lot in the discard, it's not as much as they would without the ridiculous turn they set forth with Shaymin-EX. Night March also relies a lot on Mew EX turn one in Expanded, and without Shaymin-EX odds are is that they can't hit the 180 number just from a turn 1 Juniper, N, or Colress.
You have to Ghetsis against Sableye Garb, Dark, and Toad Bats/Giratina. These decks do not have many abilities that halt them from performing if they are not up T1. These deck rely on items such as laser, trainer's mail, crushing hammer, muscle band, vs seeker, battle compressor, etc. When you get rid of these turn 1, you limit their ability to do major damage to your field. Also, take into account your own hand, as if you have no other draw, Ghetsis may be what you need to draw 2-5 cards right off the bat.

Basically, if their deck is a non-lock speed deck, use Hex Maniac. If their deck has a Toad, Garb, Giratina, or Sableye, use Ghetsis.
 
I'd rather ghetsis on archie/stoise, queen and yveltal variants or play hex maniac on night march, mega mewtwo, and mega ray turn 1, other wise picking solid turns to ghetsis or hex makes games, both are relatively good against any matchup it's just finding the right turn where they need that VS seeker or metal links for game.
 
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