Ho-Oh

[Mora]

Pokemon (10)
3 Ho-Oh
3 Mewtwo
2 Tornadus
1 Terrakion
1 Sigilyph

Trainers N' Stuff (34)
4 Juniper
4 N
2 Skyla
4 Energy Switch
4 Random Reciever
4 Ultra Ball
3 Pokemon Catcher
3 Switch
2 Eviolite
2 Super Scoop Up
1 Computer Search
1 Tool Scrapper

Energy (16)
4 DCE
3 {F}
2 {G}
2 {P}
1 {R}
1 {W}
1 {L}
1 {D}
1 {M}

Ok, so I'm having a bit of trouble with this list. I have one extra space which normaly would go to the fourth Catcher, but I decided to buy Computer Search instead, so I am, yet again, left running just three. My issue is between 4 Energy Switch, 3 Catcher, 3 Super Soop Up, 2 Eviolite, and 2 Switch, I want to make sure I don't dead draw into a hand of "useless" cards. I just want to make sure it's consistent. I planned on running something else for Cities, but I've been leaning towards reverting back to Ho-Oh. I haven't played it since the new set came out, so I really don't know what else to add. And of course, if you have any general advice, I'm all ears for that as well.

 

[ashtavakra]

Pokemon (10)
3 Ho-Oh
3 Mewtwo (-1)
2 Tornadus (-1)
1 Terrakion
1 Sigilyph
+1 Virizion EP (Sacred Sword)
+1 Shaymin EX

Trainers N' Stuff (33)
4 Juniper
4 N
2 Skyla
4 Energy Switch
4 Random Reciever
4 Ultra Ball
3 Pokemon Catcher (+1)
3 Super Scoop Up (-3)
2 Eviolite
2 Switch (+2)
1 Computer Search
+1 Tool Scrapper

Energy (16)
4 DCE
3 {F} (-1)
2 {G} (+2)
2 {P} (-1)
1 {R}
1 {W}
1 {L}
1 {D}
1 {M}

59

Ok, so I'm having a bit of trouble with this list. I have one extra space which normaly would go to the fourth Catcher, but I decided to buy Computer Search instead, so I am, yet again, left running just three. My issue is between 4 Energy Switch, 3 Catcher, 3 Super Soop Up, 2 Eviolite, and 2 Switch, I want to make sure I don't dead draw into a hand of "useless" cards. I just want to make sure it's consistent. I planned on running something else for Cities, but I've been leaning towards reverting back to Ho-Oh. I haven't played it since the new set came out, so I really don't know what else to add. And of course, if you have any general advice, I'm all ears for that as well.

**********************************************************************************************
I think that makes the deck a lot more consistent and you can build your hands, if you aren't N'd down.
SSU makes the deck even more flippy than it already is...
I think 4 Switch/4 Energy Switch/4 Catcher is AMAZING in any deck if you can find the room. Makes the deck WAY more versatile.
Only problem I really see you having is DAT Keldeo.
So to counter that I added in Virizion & Shaymin EX.
Both can 1 hit a Keldeo when need be.

I realize you said you hadn't played Ho-oh since before the release of the new set.
I think the only thing you have to worry about is Keldeo/Blastoise.
I took out a psychic energy because I didn't think you needed more than 1.
If you find yourself in need of attacking with Sigilyph. Just energy switch the psychic or attach if you haven't yet. I like using my Sigilyphs as a wall rather than an attack threat.

If you need an explanation on something else, let me know.

 

[Mora]

Hmmm... Keldeo... I'm not sure if I should add a counter for it. I'm not sure exactly what people will be playing tomorrow, but if I did include something, it would probably be Virizion, but I don't know if I have one. I know I have Virixion NV; would that be worth it, even if it doesn't OHKO it? Either way, I don't want to cut Mewtwo or Tornadus down, but I think I can make some room.

I don't have the fourth Catcher unfortunately.

I know Super Scoop Up is flippy, but I like it because if you start with Ho-Oh, you can pick him up and then discard him. Although, I suppose Switch and Energy Switch with Tornadus would be decent. I think I will swap one for a Switch.

Ah yes, how could I forget Tool Scrapper.

I think I can get an idea of the meta in my area tonight, and then I'll consider Virizion, but for now, this is what I'm doing:
-1 SSU
+1 Switch
+1 Tool Scrapper

 

[Blah]

Don't add Shaymin EX or Virizion. Whatever you do, they don't help against Keldeo (they'll just KO it right back, I've learned this from extensive testing) and this deck doesn't have much of a use for it besides that.

Anyway, I'm loving the three Mewtwo, it really is a great attacker in this deck and can actually win games against Keldeo just on it's own. If you need room, take out the Eviolites and one Random Receiver. Eviolite is really nice, but this deck is very tight for space and since many, MANY decks run Tool Scrapper, it's often just dead weight.

On the topic of Random Receiver, I personally hate running it with Skyla. Skyla has a bad habit of popping up at the one moment you needed a full hand refresh. That said, I would take them out and replace them with 3 Bianca. Since you run 4 Ultra Ball, Bianca is an extremely powerful draw supporter and works quite well in Ho-oh.

If you still want more room, you should take out a Tornadus (I would take out both Tornadus and add another Terrakion, but this deck is very versatile and it's really personal preference).

 

[Mora]

Keldeo isn't going to be that big in ny area, so I'm not going to include Virizion. I've tested out Bianca, and it works pretty well so:

-2 Skyla
+2 Bianca (I only have two; I'll see if I can get another one.)

Eviolite might be deadweight, but what about Exp Share? Even if it does get Tool Scrapered, it will still have had its effect.

 

[ashtavakra]

Keldeo isn't going to be that big in ny area, so I'm not going to include Virizion. I've tested out Bianca, and it works pretty well so:

-2 Skyla
+2 Bianca (I only have two; I'll see if I can get another one.)

Eviolite might be deadweight, but what about Exp Share? Even if it does get Tool Scrapered, it will still have had its effect.

that depends on how many people run tool scrap in your area.
i know in my area, everybody that ran it, was pissed they did run it.
no garbodor, nor did anybody use tools.

 

[Mora]

Yeah, thanks for all the help everyone. I used this list at Cities, and it won first place! ^^

Also, I would like to know why Virizion is a bad idea. I understand Shaymin is bad because it's an even prize trade with Keldeo, but Virizion is not. In one of the games I played, I was able to bench Terrakion, attach for turn, double Energy Switch, and Land Crush a Darkrai; I could be possible to do the same with Virizion. I know that sounds like a long shot, but between Tornadus, Energy Switch, and Exp. Share, it probably won't take more than two turns to power it up. What do you think? I think there are supposed to be a plethora of Keldeo/Blastoise running around. Will it even be a difficult match up if I just go aggro Mewtwo?

 

[ashtavakra]

Yeah, thanks for all the help everyone. I used this list at Cities, and it won first place! ^^

Also, I would like to know why Virizion is a bad idea. I understand Shaymin is bad because it's an even prize trade with Keldeo, but Virizion is not. In one of the games I played, I was able to bench Terrakion, attach for turn, double Energy Switch, and Land Crush a Darkrai; I could be possible to do the same with Virizion. I know that sounds like a long shot, but between Tornadus, Energy Switch, and Exp. Share, it probably won't take more than two turns to power it up. What do you think? I think there are supposed to be a plethora of Keldeo/Blastoise running around. Will it even be a difficult match up if I just go aggro Mewtwo?

aggro mewtwo is hard.
because when you are playing mewtwo vs keldeo blastoise it's almost an even matchup.
pretty much whoever gets the first attack is going to come out the victor.
i find that against blastoise/keldeo,mewtwo is better for just countering a Keldeo that has 9 energy attached to it. and then retreating and going back to what you were doing until they lay down another keldeo with 6+ energy.

 

[Mora]

Well, what else am I going to attack with? Certainly not Ho-Oh. Tornadus doesn't 2HKO it, and Terrakion is a more of a tech and not a consistent attacker. I don't think they'll load up nine energies on a Keldeo. They have to play conservatively, especially if they see several Mewtwo. I think my opponent would try to 2HKO Mewtwo with Keldeo or trade Mewtwos. Once they get down to two or three prize cards, I think I could N my opponent to a low hand, and then they might not be able to load up a Keldeo. That's just what I foresee happening; I haven't actually played against a real one yet, though.

 

[ashtavakra]

Well, what else am I going to attack with? Certainly not Ho-Oh. Tornadus doesn't 2HKO it, and Terrakion is a more of a tech and not a consistent attacker. I don't think they'll load up nine energies on a Keldeo. They have to play conservatively, especially if they see several Mewtwo. I think my opponent would try to 2HKO Mewtwo with Keldeo or trade Mewtwos. Once they get down to two or three prize cards, I think I could N my opponent to a low hand, and then they might not be able to load up a Keldeo. That's just what I foresee happening; I haven't actually played against a real one yet, though.

the list's I've played against (keldeo/blastoise).
they didn't care about conservatism. it was all about 1 shotting.
dumping all the energy you can into a keldeo and 1 shot as much as possible.
trading ko's at about a 3-2 ratio. all 3 blastoise i've seen where all top 4 in seniors and masters.
1 won seniors the other were 3rd and 4th in masters in this first cities.
running high amounts of energy, with just pokemon searches and discard recovery.
it's fast and literally like a tidal wave that rolls over everything you have in play.
the only raw power i've seen that matches is rayeels. and a good blastoise/keldeo will just catcher and ko all the eels and sacrifice a keldeo or mewtwo.
then work on ko'ing 2 exes for the game. it's a hard matchup. and there are no grass powerhouses to take down the deck really well.

 

[Mora]

What did you play against Keldeo with? Because if they have six energies on Keldeo (which is exactly enough to KO Mewtwo), if I can bench Mewtwo, attach DCE, and Energy Switch, I can KO it that way. Of course, I'd probably have to use Rebirth, and then my opponent could Catcher Ho-Oh and that would be an even prize trade. That is really my main concern about the Keldeo/Blastoise match up.

 

[Blah]

Don't worry about one matchup. Every deck loses to something, and Ho-oh loses to Keldeo not as badly as one might think. Keep the Mewtwos flowing the entire match. I actually play a deck that has a hard time with Keldeo too and I ususally just swarm the Mewtwos and retreat/switch any damaged ones to a fresh one to burn their catchers and keep the prize trade in my favor. Try to conserve your N's during the game because a late game N + Mewtwo can really wreck Keldeo if they're not prepared. It's normally best to leave the Squirtles alone (unless they are really struggling to set up) and just go for the Keldeos themselves early game. As ashtavakra mentioned, many Keldeo decks will just attempt to roll through your EX's by stacking massive energy on a single Keldeo, but as long as you keep Energy Switches handy you should be able to take down Keldeo's with 6 energy on them.

There is no tech that can improve the Keldeo matchup (maybe Gold Breaker Bouffalant to use as a 7th prize, but that's about it) so it's best to just keep the above strategies in mind and do your best. Most of the time, it's often better just to leave a good decklist the way it is and not tech for a single game possibility.

 

[Mora]

So don't go for Squirtle if there's more than one?

 

[Blah]

So don't go for Squirtle if there's more than one?

Unless your opponent has no cards in their hand or you somehow know that they won't be able to get a Blastoise next turn, there is nearly no point in going for the Squirtle if there's two of then (and sometimes even just one, although it can severely cripple set up). It's much better to go for Keldeo because Squirtle has annoying habit of becoming your 7th prize, which is really killer in this matchup (basically gives them a free turn of attacking, and one turn is often what decides games against Blastoise/Keldeo).

 

[ashtavakra]

^yeah.
just target the big exes imo.
the best keldeo/blastoise from what I've seen play tropical beach.
so the only time you will catch them with a hand of less than 3 is a late game N,
or when they have blown all their resources and already have their field setup.

 

[Baby_BI]

Is that the list you won a City Championship with (congrats on that by the way)? Because I am going to a regional this weekend and I need a deck which could be surprising (and nobody, and I really mean NOBODY would expect a ho-oh deck)

 

[Mora]

Is that the list you won a City Championship with (congrats on that by the way)? Because I am going to a regional this weekend and I need a deck which could be surprising (and nobody, and I really mean NOBODY would expect a ho-oh deck)

Yes, it was (thanks ) I changed it up slightly for another Cities the very next day, but my friend T2'd me first round with the list he took from me, and I played through half the tournament before realizing I was misaing a Ho-Oh out of ny deck. But Despite those handicaps, I went 3-2, so I would definately recomend it.

And what do you mean by no one would expect Ho-Oh? It might not be as good as Darkrai/Hydreigon but it's no Ninetales/Amoongus.

 

[Baby_BI]

Ho-oh decks are underrated in my country, nobody ever made it work (or gave it a fair try) so I would like to try it, just to surprise my opponent since that got me a 2nd place in my last tournament. Quiet funny that the surprise in that tournament was as teched Ho-oh in a Darkrai/Terrakion deck.

Oh, and a little question. Why would you not just play 4 Ho-oh? I know it raises the chance of starting with it, but it also raises the chance of getting 1 on the field if you have more of them in the discard pile.

 

[Mora]

Ho-oh decks are underrated in my country, nobody ever made it work (or gave it a fair try) so I would like to try it, just to surprise my opponent since that got me a 2nd place in my last tournament. Quite funny that the surprise in that tournament was as teched Ho-oh in a Darkrai/Terrakion deck.

Oh, and a little question. Why would you not just play 4 Ho-oh? I know it raises the chance of starting with it, but it also raises the chance of getting 1 on the field if you have more of them in the discard pile.

Pretty much so you don't start with it. And I don't like starting with it not because I can't use it's Ability (although that sucks too) but because of Keldeo/Blastoise (and Empoleon for that matter). I can always get a Switch when I need it, but if I don't scoop it up, they can Catcher it for two prizes later, and that really hurts. I don't mind Terrakion starts, but Ho-Oh has the potential to be pretty bad in certain cases. T1 Ho-Oh's are nice, but you have other attackers to use until you get it out, like Mewtwo. I would usually just X-Ball my opponent to death while powering up Tornadus on the Bench until I could get out Ho-Oh T2-4.

And another thing, I was playing this deck on PTCGO (the one with the codes, yeah, that one), and I didn't quite have all of the cards, so I just put in more energies, and Skyla. I really like Skyla because I can get Ultra Ball or Computer Search to discard Ho-Oh's, Switch or Super Scoop Up for Terrakion or Ho-Oh, or Energy Swtich as a double Plus Power to get a revenge KO on Keldeo out of nowhere. I kind of want to run Skyla in the final list; it has continued to be helpful even as I complete the list on PTCGO. (I think now, I'm missing 2 SSU and... something else I'm sure.)