Discussion If I was looking to invest into expanded, what do I play?

[ZephyrFox12]

So after vigorously testing Greninja (which I'm still doing) I wanted to play something new or more less have a secondary option for locals/league cups. Problem is after seeing the results and majority of the top lists from Breman, it seems like every deck is running 3 Lele. It's like 1 for the turn 1 Bridgette, 1 for like a draw supporter in early/mid game and 1 for a situational supporter to either close out or make a power play in the mid/late game like a Guzma or Accerola. Even the way these matches go seem very boring after awhile, it's a race to see who can turn 1 Bridgette and actually have the resources to do stuff after. It seemingly becomes a game of "who's gonna get the candy first". The only deck that dosent really follow this is GoliGarb because I'm my eyes it's supposed to disrupt them so much in the early game (120 for one energy to take out evolution lines before they can evolve) but after playing Greninja so much I hate golisopod to the point where I wouldn't even want to play it. I suppose decks like Volcanion and Turbo Darkrai (which dosent really seem like much of a thing anymore) don't play by the "first to get to Bridgette and then candy" playstyle but in the the end of the day they're both trying to set up their board just like the others which makes turn one Kiawe'd almost identical in playstyle to something like a turn one Bridgette in other decks.

Expanded is a format I don't have much experience with. The last time I played expanded Forest + Plume was still a thing and the experience was far below enjoyable. I'm not really a fan of where standard is right now as far as the meta goes. It just seems like set up first, dominate or be dominated. Now don't get me wrong expanded isn't much better, it's a lot more set up with a lot more payoff, decks run faster and your first turn can decide everything. The main difference however is that the expanded meta dosent really change, sure new decks will get thrown in there, new sets will make existing decks better and sometimes cards will get banned if they're deemed "unfair" by Pokemon's standards. While a meta like this can be boring it can also be fun, if I find a deck in expanded I like then bingo it's always there. I'm also considering investing a lot into expanded because of Shaymin's current price. As of right now 3 regular art Shaymin are less than 1 regular art Lele. I was thinking of getting like one Lele maybe but the Standard format seems like it's 3 or bust right now. The 2 main decks I was looking into we're Darkrai and Night March. Preferably I'd like to not have to buy a Computer Search but if a deck absolutely needs it instead of something like Dowsing Machine since it's like double the price.

I don't really have experience with any of these, I've played with the worlds Darkrai theme deck thing but I felt like I was enclosed in a box (might have just been my playmat or the fact that it was like DarkTinaGarb). Anyways let me know what you guys think and your experiences and recommendations with these decks if any or maybe there's another deck I'm not aware of that's up my alley.

 

[TuxedoBlack]

Your description of the Standard games reminded me of chess in that there's are opening moves, setup, attacks and counterattacks and hopeful domination by one player to a game's victory... But, unlike chess, there is much more luck and randomness involved that forces players to be a bit more flexible and versatile in responding to an opponent's play, cards in hand, cards prized, cards discarded, board state, game state, etc. Although the one player who does setup first could dominate early game, but the game victory is not necessarily assured. I've even come back from games I thought lost being way down in prizes. Running a good deck with versatile attack options and having at least a 50-50 chance of beating most meta decks makes the game challenging and fun for me.

I currently run about 3 different Standard decks and only 2 Tapu Lele GXs in each. For those players running 3, I suspect the 3rd is less "critical," as oppose to providing/maintaining consistency. When you consider having 1+ Tapu Lele GXs on your bench, they potentially become liabilities too for them to be Guzma'd and KOd - not hard at all to inflict 170 damage. I'm finding that running 2 Tapu Lele GXs, along with "strong" card-draw support, to be quite sufficient. Further, I'm seeing more players revert to running 2 Tapu Lele GXs and 1 Oranguru - the latter providing supplemental card-draw support, if needed, each turn.

The main difference I see between Standard and Expanded format games are the number of "top" decks that may be played. For example, at a Standard format tournament today, less than 10 "top," distinctly different decks will usually be played. However, in Expanded format tournaments, the "top" decks count would be closer to 20, IMO. So, the challenge, IMO, is far greater in Expanded format tournaments.

And of your 2 Expanded deck choices, I recommend Darkrai EX (BKP) for several reasons:

• There are a host of very good Dark Pokémon you could use to complement Darkrai EX (BKP) as the featured attacker such as Darkrai EX (DEX), Darkrai GX, Yveltal (BKT), Yveltal (STS, Yveltal EX, Zoroark, and/or Zoroark BREAK. IMO, this is an unmatched arsenal of attacking options.
• Dark decks can also take advantage of some dedicated and non-dedicated Dark Trainers like, Battle Compressor, Dark Patch and Reverse Valley. In addition, one could also use Dangerous energy which is another resource dedicated to Dark Pokémon.
• No doubt, Night March was, by far IMO, the most popular deck played last season and those players accounted for the most of last season's tournament matches' wins, but those victories decreased dramatically after the release of Karen, a Supporter.

I hope you find these comments helpful and help you find more fun in the game.

 

[ZephyrFox12]

Thank you so much for the response, the biggest problem I have against the state of standard is just the set up of it, while the person who sets up first dosent necessary always come out on top, the odds are very much in thier favor especially when evolving into a gx nearly triples its current health. From my experience a lot of these decks don't have a lot of grind game either. To me it seems as if every deck builds a wall and then proceeds to sit on it, if that wall gets destroyed they have little to no recovery. When the said wall is threatened (like garbotxin or just being close to dead) you attempt dig for ways out or just make a new one. And honestly it seems like once you build two walls (like a full powered grade on bench as well as active) it's gg.

2 Lele could be a pretty good investment as they're pretty much needed for any deck right now, but decks in standard right now are just really boring. Like how you said decks with versatility have 50/50 chances in winning, but to me everything that's looked at as being meta seems like watered down one trick ponies when seen in action. I guess expanded would probably be like that too tho so I'm not really sure what point I'm trying to make here anymore. I think no matter what deck I chose to play it'll drain me eventually but if I'm gonna put that much money into a deck is want to to atleast seem fun at first I guess.

 

[HouchinsDJ]

I started dabbling in Expanded recently because it seems like theirs a bigger focus on it this season. I still prefer Standard Format, but Expanded is definitely fun! I built both a Turbo Darkrai and a Trevenant Break deck online. I like both, but tend to lean more towards Trevenant. I think the biggest barrier of getting into Expanded is cost. Top Tier Expanded decks use cards like Computer Search, which last time I checked was going for a low, low $90. People complain about the price of Tapu Lele, but you'll be shelling out way more money to build an Expanded deck. You could obviously forego buying cards like Computer Search, but then you run into a similar problem where you're at a slight disadvantage when you play against decks that do use those high-end cards. Personally, I would focus on getting Tapu Lele first, regardless if you're playing Standard or Expanded, since both formats play it.

 

[Merovingian]

The Expanded meta DOES change. If you look at Fort Wayne regionals, Golisopod-Garb and Volcanion-Turtonator decks were a huge hit.

The thing to keep in mind with Expanded is that, unlike Standard, the metagame isn't much a 'pyramid'. A few decks at the top and everything else underneath it. Expanded like like a BIG circle of 12-15 good decks in a big game of rock-paper-scissors. Every deck has at least 2 hard counters. That said, there are builds that are 'safer' than others. Turbo Darkrai and Night March are arguably the most consistent decks in the format right now. Darkrai is one of the most expensive Expanded decks and Night March being one of the cheaper ones. And Karen doesn't hurt Night March that much (unless it's either spammed every turn or you Karen a NM player under Item Lock)

I started dabbling in Expanded recently because it seems like theirs a bigger focus on it this season. I still prefer Standard Format, but Expanded is definitely fun! I built both a Turbo Darkrai and a Trevenant Break deck online. I like both, but tend to lean more towards Trevenant. I think the biggest barrier of getting into Expanded is cost. Top Tier Expanded decks use cards like Computer Search, which last time I checked was going for a low, low $90. People complain about the price of Tapu Lele, but you'll be shelling out way more money to build an Expanded deck. You could obviously forego buying cards like Computer Search, but then you run into a similar problem where you're at a slight disadvantage when you play against decks that do use those high-end cards. Personally, I would focus on getting Tapu Lele first, regardless if you're playing Standard or Expanded, since both formats play it.

I'd argue that if you were to get into Standard right now, it's extremely cost inefficient. 3 Tapu Leles will run you at least $150 for just the regulars. You could build almost any Expanded deck for well under $150. Notable exceptions being Primal Groudon, the Golisopod-Garb deck that ran 3 Beaches, and MAYBE Turbo Darkrai depending on the current market and if you want to max any rarities.

Computer Search is like a $50-$60 card. Not $90. It's basically Expanded's 'Lele', and you only need 1, it's not that big a deal. To top it off, Computer Search isn't the 'use it or your deck sux' type of card. Depending on your deck, other Ace Specs could fit the bill better than Computer Search. But typically, if none of the Ace Specs seem to work for your deck spectacularly, Computer Search becomes a sort of general default.

Also, some decks don't even use Tapu Lele. Depending on your build, Jirachi EX is better (searchable by Level Ball and 'Scoundrel Ring' Hoopa EX)

 

[HouchinsDJ]

The Expanded meta DOES change. If you look at Fort Wayne regionals, Golisopod-Garb and Volcanion-Turtonator decks were a huge hit.

The thing to keep in mind with Expanded is that, unlike Standard, the metagame isn't much a 'pyramid'. A few decks at the top and everything else underneath it. Expanded like like a BIG circle of 12-15 good decks in a big game of rock-paper-scissors. Every deck has at least 2 hard counters. That said, there are builds that are 'safer' than others. Turbo Darkrai and Night March are arguably the most consistent decks in the format right now. Darkrai is one of the most expensive Expanded decks and Night March being one of the cheaper ones. And Karen doesn't hurt Night March that much (unless it's either spammed every turn or you Karen a NM player under Item Lock)



I'd argue that if you were to get into Standard right now, it's extremely cost inefficient. 3 Tapu Leles will run you at least $150 for just the regulars. You could build almost any Expanded deck for well under $150. Notable exceptions being Primal Groudon, the Golisopod-Garb deck that ran 3 Beaches, and MAYBE Turbo Darkrai depending on the current market and if you want to max any rarities.

Computer Search is like a $50-$60 card. Not $90. It's basically Expanded's 'Lele', and you only need 1, it's not that big a deal. To top it off, Computer Search isn't the 'use it or your deck sux' type of card. Depending on your deck, other Ace Specs could fit the bill better than Computer Search. But typically, if none of the Ace Specs seem to work for your deck spectacularly, Computer Search becomes a sort of general default.

Also, some decks don't even use Tapu Lele. Depending on your build, Jirachi EX is better (searchable by Level Ball and 'Scoundrel Ring' Hoopa EX)

Computer Search was around $90 last time I looked on TCGplayer. That was right before Fort Wayne Regionals though, which would make sense as to why it was so high. At the moment, the lowest listing on there is for $76 including shipping so it has dropped but not dramatically.

No matter which format you're looking at getting into, it's going to cost you between $100-200 to build a competitive deck completely from scratch. If you already have your key Supporters then that helps, but outside of things like Tapu Lele and Computer Search, most other cards are priced fine as long as you're not playing max rarity. Even counting two Tapu Lele, you can still build an entire Standard deck from scratch for under $200. And the great thing is that when you go to build any new decks, you'll already have your Lele and Supporters and other key cards so all you'll really need to buy are the Pokémon. That still might be too expensive for some, but compared to other competitive card games it's low.

 

[Merovingian]

Computer Search was around $90 last time I looked on TCGplayer. That was right before Fort Wayne Regionals though, which would make sense as to why it was so high. At the moment, the lowest listing on there is for $76 including shipping so it has dropped but not dramatically.

No matter which format you're looking at getting into, it's going to cost you between $100-200 to build a competitive deck completely from scratch. If you already have your key Supporters then that helps, but outside of things like Tapu Lele and Computer Search, most other cards are priced fine as long as you're not playing max rarity. Even counting two Tapu Lele, you can still build an entire Standard deck from scratch for under $200. And the great thing is that when you go to build any new decks, you'll already have your Lele and Supporters and other key cards so all you'll really need to buy are the Pokémon. That still might be too expensive for some, but compared to other competitive card games it's low.

TCGPlayer is good for pricing 95% of the time. During Ft. Wayne, Dark Patch was a $20 card. Computer Search being $75-$90 on there falls under the 5% B.S.

I see a Computer Search in EBay right now for $50, and it's been sitting there for a bit. There are $60 ones that have been there since Ft. Wayne ended.

And that's assuming you actually need Computer Search. If you're really strapped for cash, Dowsing Machine

 

[ZephyrFox12]

I didn't even realize the price of Dark Patches until now it's crazy, but I already have 2 if I ever plan to play turbo dark. I'm pretty certain now that i'm getting a lele above all else, what I buy after i'm not really sure of tbh. Standard at the moment seems like it's 3 Leles everywhere to build a jenga tower and have it fall/fail in you mid game. Im definetely going to research expanded more in my free time tho, ill probably make posts regarding questions and what not as well. I already have Greninja built and whether that was a good or bad decision im still unsure, I guess time will tell. I think i'm kinda split between Night March and Darkrai although with the lightning support in shining legends Jolteon EX with good back up attackers could possibly threaten both fairly well. Although I suppose if they've been around this long they probably have a way around it.

 

[Merovingian]

I didn't even realize the price of Dark Patches until now it's crazy, but I already have 2 if I ever plan to play turbo dark. I'm pretty certain now that i'm getting a lele above all else, what I buy after i'm not really sure of tbh. Standard at the moment seems like it's 3 Leles everywhere to build a jenga tower and have it fall/fail in you mid game. Im definetely going to research expanded more in my free time tho, ill probably make posts regarding questions and what not as well. I already have Greninja built and whether that was a good or bad decision im still unsure, I guess time will tell. I think i'm kinda split between Night March and Darkrai although with the lightning support in shining legends Jolteon EX with good back up attackers could possibly threaten both fairly well. Although I suppose if they've been around this long they probably have a way around it.

Im a bit shocked at the prices of Dark Patch as well. I'm selling a playset on everyone's favorite auction site for $46 at the moment, could go higher. But if you're intending to go Turbo Dark, you might need $20 to get your other 2 patches.

If you go Night March, you'll need either Computer Search or Dowsing Machine. It goes down to personal preference. However, the 1st place NM deck at Ft. Wayne used Computer Search, Id check that deck out.

Darkrai, always Dowsing Machine (it's like a 5th Dark Patch). However, it's really easy to netdsck Darkrai since the Sky Field version is the best version at the moment, and space in it is TIGHT. Fortunately, you don't need Lele for it if you don't have one (just get 1 Jirachi EX)