Discussion Is Zoroark/Lucario underplayed?

[Chicken Nugget Master]

I know Lucario GX has been seeing a decent amount of play recently, but it seems to me that its full potential is simply not being reached. In this thread, I will go over all of the pros and cons of Lucario GX and consider whether it should see more play or not. Let us start with it's first attack, Aura Strike.

30 Damage. If this Pokémon evolved from Riolu this turn, this attack does 90 more damage.

So 120 damage for 1 [F] Energy? Let's see if we can't modify that a little bit.

+20 Diancie Prism Star
+20 Strong Energy
+30 Choice Band

190 Damage for 1 Energy? That sounds a lot better, let's take a look at what we knock out with that:

Buzzwole GX
Ultra Necrozma GX
Tapu Lele GX
Zoroark GX
Tapu Bulu GX

So not only does it 1HKO all three of the BDIFs, but also the best non-BDIF and the best support Pokémon we have right now. If that doesn't warrant a lot of play, I don't know what does.

Cyclone Kick for 3 Energy [F][F][C] is pretty self explanatory, you'll pretty much KO anything with it. At bare minimum (assuming you play 0 basic [F] Energy) this attack will do 170 damage, enough to knock out Tapu Lele. Add a Diancie Prism Star on there and make it 190, enough to take out all of the aforementioned Pokémon. Even though it requires 3 separate Energy attachments over multiple turns, it is still a very viable attack, and if you've ever played Lucario I can guarantee you've used this attack at least once.

Now onto Cantankerous Beatdown GX. A brilliant retaliation attack that does 30 damage for each damage counter on Lucario. This is pretty much "If you don't 1HKO me, I will 1HKO you. And all it requires is a single DCE to execute it. Imagine this scenario quickly:

You have a Riolu (or Lucario, it doesn't matter) on your bench, and your opponent has their Tapu Koko use Flying Flip on it and it deals 20 damage. Cantankerous Beatdown will now deal 60 Base damage. With a Diancie Prism Star on your bench and a Choice Band attached to the attacking Lucario, Cantankerous Beatdown now deals 110 damage. Apply weakness, and you're now hitting 220. So with only 2 damage counters on it, Lucario can easily 1HKO a Zoroark GX or Silvally GX (or any [F] weak Pokémon) and claim what is essentially a free 2 prize cards.

Now we've looked at all of the attacks, let's take a look at the other stats such as HP and weakness.

210 HP. That's pretty standard for a Stage 1 GX, but how easy is it to 1HKO a Pokémon with 210HP? The answer is actually pretty difficult, as other than Buzzwole or Tapu Bulu (which we 1HKO anyway) you'd need to take advantage of it's [P] weakness. The best Pokémon to do this are Espeon GX, Garbodor, Mew EX and Naganadel GX. Let's see how we can counter those.

Mew (copying Riotous Beating from Zoroark) and Naganadel both do 20 damage for each Pokémon (or UB in Naganadel's case, but they play pretty much all UBs aside from Tapu Lele GX anyway) in play. Assuming the opponent doesn't (or can't) attach a Choice Band, the attack will do 120 (6x20) damage. Applying weakness, this will do 240 damage, enough to 1HKO Lucario. However, there are 2 ways to reduce your opponent's bench:

Sudowoodo and Parallel City. Sudowoodo means your opponent can't have more than 4 Pokémon on their bench, and Parallel City limits them (or you) to only having 3. Parallel City does seem like the obvious and better choice, but being a Stadium, it is vulnerable to Field Blower and opposing Stadiums. This is why I believe that Sudowoodo is the better choice, although it is always a good idea to play high counts of Parallel City, as it restricts your opponent a lot more.

Let's now re-evaluate the Mew EX and Naganadel problem, but this time with a Sudowoodo on our bench. Now the opponent can only have 5 Pokémon in play, which means Riotous Beating and Beast Raid will do 200 damage after applying weakness, which is not enough to 1HKO Lucario.

If they attach Choice Band, they will get the KO (even if you play a Parallel City, it will still do 220 with Choice Band) so playing high Field Blower counts is also a must.

Now onto the Espeon and Garbodor problems, and the answer here is fairly simple; high Field Blower counts once again. Not only to escape Garbodor's Ability lock, but also for removing Choice Bands (which will be explained in more detail later) and Parallel Cities.

The majority of Lucario decks are Zoroark/Lucario variants, so let us assume we are playing Zoroark here.

When faced against an Espeon/Garbodor deck, the best option here is to rely (almost) solely on Zoroark to win, as not only can Zoroark 1HKO both Garbodor easily, Espeon struggles to even 3HKO a Zoroark without a Choice Band (which is why the high Field Blower count is so vital) as Psychic (with a DCE attached to Zoroark) will do 100 damage after applying resistance, so even if Espeon manages to dish out two Psychic attacks, they will still only do 200 damage. It is extremely easy for Zoroark to 2HKO Espeon in return, which is why Zoroark/Lucario is the best and only variant worthy of seeing play.

Now we have covered all of the ways to dish out big damage and protect Lucario's weaker points, I ask you this question:

Does this article make you want to play Lucario GX now? If the answer is not yes, then I simply can not see how you would not want to.

Here is a list for you to play if you want, and feel free to make changes. I would add more Field Blowers, but there are simply no cards I can see myself cutting for them. This may change in the future, but for now I like this list the way it is.

4 Zorua (SM83)
4 Zoroark GX (SM84)
3 Riolu (UPR 66)
2 Lucario GX (SM100)
1 Lucario (FAC 47)
1 Binacle (FOL 66)
1 Barbaracle (FAC 23)
2 Tapu Lele GX (GUR 60)
1 Diancie Prism Star (FOL 74)
1 Sudowoodo (GRI 66)

4 Ultra Ball
4 Puzzle Of Time
2 Field Blower
2 Evosoda
3 Choice Band
2 Float Stone

3 Brigette
3 Guzma
3 Cynthia
2 N
1 Mallow

3 Parallel City

4 Double Colorless Energy
4 Strong Energy

Any questions will be answered, and I'd love to hear how you guys get on with this deck. Until then, Nugget Master out!

 

[CrownAxe]

You do realize that the most potent psychic deck right now is Malamar right? Which easily hits Lucario for weakness and still stuffs Zoroark with Ultra Necrozma

 

[Chicken Nugget Master]

You do realize that the most potent psychic deck right now is Malamar right? Which easily hits Lucario for weakness and still stuffs Zoroark with Ultra Necrozma

I am very aware, which is why I included it in my list of BDIFs. However, many Malamar decks are not even playing Ultra Necrozma, and instead choose to rely on Dawn Wings Necrozma and regular Necrozma GX. I am not saying that Malamar is not a bad matchup, but rather that it is not easy to beat, but under the right circumstances, the matchup can be in your favour. Parallel City/Sudowoodo hurts Necrozma a lot, and it is what I use in a lot of my battles against it.

 

[cardgjammer]

Post-rotation, I predict losing Strong energy will significantly hurt Lucario-GX, for same reasons as Buzzwole, as aura strike will have a lower damage cap of 180, similar to buzzwole's 210 vs. enhanced hammers, but unlike Buzz, Lucario-gx can't use beast ring, but regardless, Luke may be unpopular now, but its playability is still good at same time, but after rotation, not being able to attach more than 1 energy per turn is a critical negative that will hurt it's playability worse than Buzz's, to justify the low rate of it being played by likely standard format winners. If you want to use luke, do so before rotation for best results.

 

[gumball51321]

Post-rotation, I predict losing Strong energy will significantly hurt Lucario-GX, for same reasons as Buzzwole, as aura strike will have a lower damage cap of 180, similar to buzzwole's 210 vs. enhanced hammers, but unlike Buzz, Lucario-gx can't use beast ring, but regardless, Luke may be unpopular now, but its playability is still good at same time, but after rotation, not being able to attach more than 1 energy per turn is a critical negative that will hurt it's playability worse than Buzz's, to justify the low rate of it being played by likely standard format winners. If you want to use luke, do so before rotation for best results.

Small detail I would like to point out: Aura Strike caps at 170 post rotation. Diancie+Band is 50 on the 120.

Lucario is meh right now. I love the deck in expanded, but in standard, killing Riolus can cut off your options fast, the amount of support Lucario needs on the field is a bit crazy(which contributes to why sniping Riolus hurts so bad), and it's weak to Psychic, which is not good for you because you can't OHKO Dawn Wings without Zoroark, but Dawn Wings kills Lucario, Marshadow can Moon's Eclipse and Guzma(next turn) to take 4 prizes only to finish up with a big Necrozma since the only 1 prizes that can OHKO Marshadow is Mewtwo EVO, once again only working in the Zoroark variant.

 

[Chicken Nugget Master]

Post-rotation, I predict losing Strong energy will significantly hurt Lucario-GX, for same reasons as Buzzwole, as aura strike will have a lower damage cap of 180, similar to buzzwole's 210 vs. enhanced hammers, but unlike Buzz, Lucario-gx can't use beast ring, but regardless, Luke may be unpopular now, but its playability is still good at same time, but after rotation, not being able to attach more than 1 energy per turn is a critical negative that will hurt it's playability worse than Buzz's, to justify the low rate of it being played by likely standard format winners. If you want to use luke, do so before rotation for best results.

Small detail I would like to point out: Aura Strike caps at 170 post rotation. Diancie+Band is 50 on the 120.

Lucario is meh right now. I love the deck in expanded, but in standard, killing Riolus can cut off your options fast, the amount of support Lucario needs on the field is a bit crazy(which contributes to why sniping Riolus hurts so bad), and it's weak to Psychic, which is not good for you because you can't OHKO Dawn Wings without Zoroark, but Dawn Wings kills Lucario, Marshadow can Moon's Eclipse and Guzma(next turn) to take 4 prizes only to finish up with a big Necrozma since the only 1 prizes that can OHKO Marshadow is Mewtwo EVO, once again only working in the Zoroark variant.

These are both very good points, and I will definitely not be playing Lucario GX Post Rotation. In the current standard format however, Lucario deserves its spot in the meta and is arguably the best Zoroark variant as of right now.

In terms of the Malamar matchup, it all depends on how quickly the Zoroark player is able to set up. If you can swing 190 turn 2 (which is very possible) your opponent will find it very hard to overtake you in the prize race. The first knockout is key; whoever takes it will more than likely win the match.

In the Buzzwole matchup, I find it to be anywhere between 55-45 to 60-40 to the Buzzwole player, as Buzzwole can take a little bit of time to set up as well, so getting the turn 2 KO is very important. Being able to escape the 3-4 prize zone as soon as possible is what you should always keep in mind, and focus more on setting up your Lucarios, as Zoroark is a liability when you have too many of them on your bench just waiting to be Sledgehammered into oblivion.

In summary, Zoroark/Lucario can definitely beat both of the other Tier 1 decks, but can definitely be beaten by both of them as well. It all depends on the experience of the player and (although I hate to say this) luck of the draw.

 

[gumball51321]

These are both very good points, and I will definitely not be playing Lucario GX Post Rotation. In the current standard format however, Lucario deserves its spot in the meta and is arguably the best Zoroark variant as of right now.

In terms of the Malamar matchup, it all depends on how quickly the Zoroark player is able to set up. If you can swing 190 turn 2 (which is very possible) your opponent will find it very hard to overtake you in the prize race. The first knockout is key; whoever takes it will more than likely win the match.

In the Buzzwole matchup, I find it to be anywhere between 55-45 to 60-40 to the Buzzwole player, as Buzzwole can take a little bit of time to set up as well, so getting the turn 2 KO is very important. Being able to escape the 3-4 prize zone as soon as possible is what you should always keep in mind, and focus more on setting up your Lucarios, as Zoroark is a liability when you have too many of them on your bench just waiting to be Sledgehammered into oblivion.

In summary, Zoroark/Lucario can definitely beat both of the other Tier 1 decks, but can definitely be beaten by both of them as well. It all depends on the experience of the player and (although I hate to say this) luck of the draw.

I would disagree about the first swing against Malamar. Because of how much trouble Marshadow/Dawn Wings(the combo is the key to beating Zoroark) can give you, you really do have to be drawing significantly better than them. And that being said, Zoroark is very consistent, which means the Malamar player will have to hit at least 1 card drought. But I wouldn't call it rare, since Malamar is a deck where not conserving your resources like bench space and Pokemon search can make you start dead drawing.

I don't argue that Zoroark Lucario is the best Zoroark variant though, I completely agree. But that's because it is a Zoroark variant. So I wouldn't really call it a Lucario variant. Although, that comes down to personal opinion, and isn't very relevant to the discussion.

 

[Chicken Nugget Master]

I would disagree about the first swing against Malamar. Because of how much trouble Marshadow/Dawn Wings(the combo is the key to beating Zoroark) can give you, you really do have to be drawing significantly better than them. And that being said, Zoroark is very consistent, which means the Malamar player will have to hit at least 1 card drought. But I wouldn't call it rare, since Malamar is a deck where not conserving your resources like bench space and Pokemon search can make you start dead drawing.

I don't argue that Zoroark Lucario is the best Zoroark variant though, I completely agree. But that's because it is a Zoroark variant. So I wouldn't really call it a Lucario variant. Although, that comes down to personal opinion, and isn't very relevant to the discussion.

I can see your point when it comes to consistency, and I agree that consistency is pretty much the whole battle. I find the key to beating any kind of Necrozma in Malamar decks is to absolutely layer them with Parallel City, hence why I play 3 copies. This way, they have to be very careful about which Pokemon they set up, and which ones they attack with. And considering I can 1HKO all of their Pokemon with (considerable) ease, they have to keep setting up new Pokemon every turn. I do agree that Lucario is only good in standard with Zoroark, so I shall change the name of the thread to "Is Zoroark/Lucario underplayed".
Anyhow, my games tend to go something like this:


I take the first KO with my Lucario against an Ultra Necrozma, Necrozma or Tapu Lele.

They then KO my Lucario with their Dawn Wings Necrozma.

I then target a Pokemon GX on their bench (as DWN will pretty much always use Moon's Eclipse after my first KO) and KO that with either Zoroark (against Marshadow or DWN) or Lucario (against everything else).

They will then take out the Pokemon I just attacked them with (most often with their DWN, remember it is still in play as I didn't take down the one that used Moon's Eclipse) leaving us both with 2 prizes.

I then simply KO their DWN with my Zoroark, and win the game.


This isn't how all of my games go, but most of them follow a similar path that eventually leads to the winning outcome for me.

 

[FlashRayquaza]

As a ZoroCario player I must say ZoroCario is no good choice anymore. It loses to Buzzroc, it has a 50/50 matchup against U Necrozma and loses to Necrozma. ZoroCario was the deck I loved, but now I have to switch to another deck. I can't play it anymore if I want to win.

 

[Chicken Nugget Master]

As a ZoroCario player I must say ZoroCario is no good choice anymore. It loses to Buzzroc, it has a 50/50 matchup against U Necrozma and loses to Necrozma. ZoroCario was the deck I loved, but now I have to switch to another deck. I can't play it anymore if I want to win.

Really? I constantly win matches against Buzzwole and both Necrozmas. What list did you play out of curiosity, maybe it had something to do with that? Either way, ZoroCario has good matchups across the board and definitely hasn't been ruled out as a good deck just yet. There is no doubt that after rotation it will be next to useless, but for now I can't see why people should put their Lucario decks down. It definitely isn't the best deck in the format, but it is good enough to warrant seeing play.