Keeping the Lid on a Rogue Deck

Mora

Don't Panic
Member
I have a rogue deck, but I don't know what to do with it. I was thinking about playing it at regionals or some really important tournament because that's my style; I don't believe in the cookie-cutter thinking process, taking the lists that win in Japan and copying them exactly. I know that this is not what the people who win events such as nationals do, but I guess what I'm trying to say is I like to be original. But it seems like what happens with rogues is you win a tournament with it, and it's not rogue any more; it becomes a part of the meta. Terrakion, Vileplume/Reuniclus, etc. I want to keep the idea to myself as much as I can so I won't have to worry about people beating me with my own deck and that kind of thing, but I still need to test it thoroughly. Right now, the only people who have seen it in action are a select few at league including two really good friends and a guy who thinks it's a stupid idea. I was thinking about testing it on playtcg, but I don't want people to see it in action and copy my list. What should I do?
 
Just do what you want with it. Tbh, I come up with rogues all the time and usually just mess around with them at league. Some of them are good, but none are so good they're able to beat the best decks around.

Besides, if you've played it at league, it's no longer a secret so you have no reason to worry.
 
I don't mind if certain people know about it locally (you know, the ones who won't tell everyone and try to play the deck themselves), but I guess I don't want it to catch on. If I use it on playtcg, I'm afraid it will. It has a very good matchup with Garchomp, it certainly can put pressure on Eel variants, and I imagine it would do the same with Darkrai but I foresee problems with Darkrai's snipe.
 
What I do is test with myself, as I don't have a group and can't always get on Playtcg. I set up two decks against each other on my deck and play "solitare." However, you need to be able to base your decisions on what your opponent would normally know, not what is in the hand of one of the decks. TBH, it's probably fine right now because if you do well with this deck at regionals, yeah, people will know about it, but regionals is the last tournament with BW-DRX. What happened with Terrakion is it won week 1 of states, then people caught on and were able to play it weeks 2 and 3 and spring regionals. Besides, if the deck is really good, someone has probably thought of it.
 
Maybe Mora thought of something. I know a few rogues that are better than he meta.

Test with your group, and pull a google. IIRC he didn't tell many people about his deck, till he made worlds.
 
I do test with myself, but I feel like when I play I can't help but be biased towards certain decisions. I know both decks forwards and backwards, something my opponent will not. And there is always a sense of astonishment when a well-respected opponent flips over Bronzor or something else that's not in the meta. I think that testing with yourself is great as far as getting consistency issues in check, but I think I'm past that point and want to learn exactly how to pay the deck in a wider variety of situations that only playing with people of different play styles can offer. That and I just figured out playtcg, so I'm really tempted to use it in testing :p
 
I agree with all of the above. Find a focus group of people you can trust. Build multiple of the meta's decks (it doesn't matter if you proxy because this is for fun). And just try to keep it quiet from there. But I do have something to say about rogues. Unless you feel like this deck is extremely good, don't try to play it at high level tournies. I learned this the hard way at Nats with Zekeels with Vileplume.
 
Martini said:
Maybe Mora thought of something. I know a few rogues that are better than he meta.

Test with your group, and pull a google. IIRC he didn't tell many people about his deck, till he made worlds.
Actually, I believe google was very open with the deck online. No one really knew about the final product until the minutes before worlds, but I think he shared earlier versions of the deck online.
 
pokemonjoe said:
Actually, I believe google was very open with the deck online. No one really knew about the final product until the minutes before worlds, but I think he shared earlier versions of the deck online.
google doesn't mind showing his decklist. His entire league knows about all of his decks and he'll share his builds with many of his friends. Most people laugh off his decks... because they usually kinda suck. Once he hits the sweet spot-deck, he's a seriously scary player. Until then, you can kinda ignore most of his decks.

I've worked personally with many of the great rogue players. The majority are very open with their decks. They want perfect decks. The surprise value will only carry you a short way to a victory. A strong, consistent deck will allow you to win. You, my friend, clearly don't understand the true competitive spirit of the game.

First off, you seem to be playing rogue for the sake of playing rogue... which is absolutely the wrong thing to do if you want to win. Play the best deck you have. Don't "be different" because you want to be different. Be different because it will bring you the win. Secondly, the majority of people have unique spins on popular decks. Trainer and Pokemon lines are often very unique in winning decks. They might have the same strategy as Xtrillion other people, but good players will often build their lines from the group up and win because of those lines. Many CMT players, for example, had 1 shaymin. I had 2. That was my unique spin to the CMT deck (along with other things), and it won me AT LEAST 4 games at regionals, 3 games at nationals, and 3 games at worlds.

You said that rogues often become meta... when they're good. The meta is a fluid thing that changes shape based on what's good. If a rogue is legitimately a good deck, it won't take long to become meta. That's most certainly true. If you want to play the best deck, go for it. If you are playing the best deck, it won't be unknown for very long. Even so, you always need second and third opinions on builds to be able to perfect any build.

You also said that there's a sense of astonishment when respected players flip up uncommon pokemon. That's... kinda... true, but I think you misunderstand why. Respected players are highly consistent and often choose the best deck option they have. When someone brings something unique, such as the Lafonte group with Mismagius at nats, we always have to wonder why. Did they make a blunder, or did they discover something that we never figured out? It is less a sense of astonishment than a sense of questioning. Tournament results will confirm or refute the pro players' decision to play this rogue deck. Often, players can have lapses in judgement, but other times, they've truly discovered something great. Good players focus on decks that can consistently win in the current metagame (the whole metagame... not just a subsection). Most of them, save a few, will not play something rogue for the sake of playing rogue.

tl;dr: Play the best deck you have. Don't play rogue just because you want to play rogue. Find a group of players that you can respect and have them critique your deck. Don't tell them to keep quiet... they'll talk if they want to talk. Your deck won't become popular unless you're important (which you aren't) or you win something with it. Either way, you'll remain relatively unknown for a while. If you think you've discovered something that will break the metagame, you're usually wrong... but sometimes you're right. Run a few gauntlets and make sure you're super well tested when playing rogue. Triple the amount of testing you're doing when playing rogue. Don't cling to your deck if it ends up failing.

Hope that helped :)
 
^this
Most rouge decks don't go farther than league, unless it's good. Make sure no matter how you're testing, make sure you play against decks that are strong against yours, or you that you think you will have a bad matchup against.
 
Since this discussion is about rogues, I thought this would be a good thread to mention the spelling of the word.
ROGUE
 
And since this is PB we should stop spamming by correcting peoples English....

I'm learning a lot about google xD.

Also, test with your whole league, it works a lot better than just a specific group.
 
Martini said:
And since this is PokéBeach we should stop spamming by correcting peoples English....

I'm learning a lot about google xD.

Also, test with your whole league, it works a lot better than just a specific group.
I'm not being a grammar nazi or anything, it's just annoying when I see everyone spelling it like rouge. Not many things bug me, this is one of them. Sorry if I offended anyone...

On-topic: IMO, the less people you test with, the less likely someone is to accidentally or purposefully share it.
 
CodeMonkey said:
The surprise value will only carry you a short way to a victory. A strong, consistent deck will allow you to win. You, my friend, clearly don't understand the true competitive spirit of the game.

First off, you seem to be playing rogue for the sake of playing rogue... which is absolutely the wrong thing to do if you want to win. Play the best deck you have. Don't "be different" because you want to be different. Be different because it will bring you the win.

And you, my friend, clearly don't understand where I'm coming from when I say I have a rogue. It is strong, it is consistent, and it is winning me games. Please know that I play around with A LOT of rogues, and I'm not jumping the gun when I say this has potential. I hate playing with meta game decks. I know that they are a part of the meta for a reason, because they are arguably the best decks, but it really isn't fun for me to play what EVERYONE ELSE is playing. Last season, I played around with several variants of Slowking/Weavile, including one I actually came up wth myself. I saw it wasn't appropriate for the format, and went to States with Regigigas/Typhlosion and did pretty well for all of the Terrakion hype at the time. This season, I've scrapped quite a few ideas including Regigigas/Cofigrigus and Ninjask. This is not, "Hey I have a cool idea; it might be something. Could you lend me some Joltiks from BW." And not that I care about winning more than having fun, but this is the best deck I have. Better than Garchomp at least >.>

CodeMonkey said:
You said that rogues often become meta... when they're good.

Mora said:
But it seems like what happens with rogues is you win a tournament with it, and it's not rogue any more; it becomes a part of the meta.

Are you saying that bad rogues win tournaments? :p

CodeMonkey said:
You also said that there's a sense of astonishment when respected players flip up uncommon pokemon. That's... kinda... true, but I think you misunderstand why. Respected players are highly consistent and often choose the best deck option they have. When someone brings something unique, such as the Lafonte group with Mismagius at nats, we always have to wonder why. Did they make a blunder, or did they discover something that we never figured out? It is less a sense of astonishment than a sense of questioning. Tournament results will confirm or refute the pro players' decision to play this rogue deck. Often, players can have lapses in judgement, but other times, they've truly discovered something great. Good players focus on decks that can consistently win in the current metagame (the whole metagame... not just a subsection). Most of them, save a few, will not play something rogue for the sake of playing rogue.

Nope. That sums it up accurately. There is also the aspect with rogues when you flip over something wierd, your opponent might be in the dark on what exactly your strategy is until a turn or two into the game. Obviously, I don't expect to flip over Woobat and my opponent to say, "What is this? I scoop!" but I do believe that it is possible that there are some minor details your opponent's knowledge of your strategy would influence. I was saying that that was one of the reasons I wanted to play against another opponent rather than just myself, nothing more.

CodeMonkey said:
Your deck won't become popular unless you're important (which you aren't) or you win something with it. Either way, you'll remain relatively unknown for a while.

Gee, thanks... I'm hoping by important, you meant the people who do well at Worlds..?

CodeMonkey said:
If you think you've discovered something that will break the metagame, you're usually wrong... but sometimes you're right. Run a few gauntlets and make sure you're super well tested when playing rogue. Triple the amount of testing you're doing when playing rogue. Don't cling to your deck if it ends up failing.

Hope that helped :)

While unlikely, it does happen though. I'm not saying my deck will be the undiscovered BDIF, but it certainly has showed potential. I made a Darkrai/Hydreigon scoop last night; it was awesome :D But I do like the idea of a gautlet, and I'll see if I can set one of those up. And don't worry, I'll be holding on to my Garchomps for a while. Wish me luck!
 
Yes, I'm hoping to find a ballance. I'm not going to take it to a tournament if I don't think I can play it well, but I want it to be too widely known, either. I'm thinking what I may do is play it openly at league. Few people show up, but they are all good players, and they are people I can trust.
 
There is no need to be so secretive with your deck.

Playing by yourself will not give you good data on how your deck will perform, because you can't play both sides in good faith. (You can't pretend not to know the contents of the other deck [i.e. techs, how many copies, etc.])

If you can trust the people at your league, test against them extensively. They probably won't suddenly switch decks and use yours because they won't be as comfortable playing it as you are.

And even if they do, it doesn't matter, because the second you cut or win a major tournament with it, the cat will be out of the bag and your deck (or at least the key players of it) will be all over the internet whether you want it to be or not. And if you don't, then no one is going to care what your deck was. So why be so secretive?

They say imitation is the sincerest form of flattery. If someone thinks your deck is so good that they begin to use it and tweak it and try to improve it (just look at what everyone did to the original version of The Truth), then is that really so bad? Personally, if someone netdecked my deck, used it against me, and found a few cards that solved a couple problems I couldn't fix, I'd probably compliment them on their discovery and wish them well in the rest of the tournament. I might feel a little silly that I didn't think of it, but you'd better believe that as soon as I got home I'd be taking those extra cards into consideration when I tweak my deck.
 
Wait until right before a new set comes out that will make it unplayable. I 8-0'd Regionals with Kingdra/Zoroark when Reshiram was huge. Stomped the big metagame decks like it was nothing. Nobody else thought it was a good idea, but I went with it. After that, several people tried Zoroark, but then a new set came out and the format changed, so it wasn't good any more.
 
I would have to agree with PMJ. Imatation is the sincerest form of flattery. If people imitate it, you'll atleast be able to say "Hey, I came up with that deck. People are playing it! It works well for them! Neat!" If people don't imitate it, you'll be able to have fun going against the grain and doing well at the same time. Whenever I build a "rogue", I'm always eager to tell people about it. Then I'm the subject of conversation about how weird and cool my deck is. I like it better that way for myself. I think it might be good to keep it on the hush hush now, but if you do well with it at Regionals you should be open about it and use Playtcg, because chances are, it'll be known if you do well with it at such a big tournament as Regs. I'm really excited at the idea of you ever revealing what your deck is! It sounds really cool.
 
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