Ehhh I'm with Luis on this one, actually. If the role the hosts posted isn't Lele's actual role, I'm really not a fan of the ability at all. It is intentional misguidance, and not signposted in any way (because the hosts had no guarantee that Luxinity would use their ability today) to make it even remotely balanced. Like, the extent of possible signposting is the Oracle of Delphi because Lele is correct in that every statement this particular oracle makes must be inherently open to multiple interpretations, only one of which will actually occur. But considering the phrase in the post doesn't have that quality, and the fact that it's not a vision of the future, which is what the Oracle of Delphi deals in, it does seem like meaningless flavour above all else. Again, if Lele's role isn't the genuine role they've put there and we were meant to guess that from this Oracle of Delphi flavour, then the flavour wasn't done well enough.
Earlier on, you said you weren't a fan if the flip was genuine bc that would be horrendously unfair to Lele. >.>
I've definitely seen games with false flips without an extra tagline saying "yo this is p shifty maybe don't trust it". But I also don't wanna get too far into this bc it'll just be resolved after Lele flips anyway. :/
-I think I could have explained it better: what he's doing could be considered an alibi so that he can continue defending Lele.
Oh. Yeah I see what you're saying, but Cel's right that it's just straight-up WIFOM.
-(also @Celever) I know it wasn't a bot last time, but you're all acting like it was in this game and it's obnoxious. It's the "go-to excuse" to avoid any question, and it shouldn't be. And of course you can play a game without fully claiming. But any step above my definition of "claiming" would be heavily restricting, and playing a game where you can't even back up your results (if any) would just lose any meaning. I mean, if that's the case then run a full Vanilla game, for Christ's sake. And sure, e don't have an strict definition, so I'm personally using mine until told otherwise by the host by giving us the proper rules. I'm not going to say "yo, WPM, use this definition or quit", but my thought processes will go by this definition and whoever tries to defend behind the "I-I'll get p-punished, halp" /without a logical reason/ then you'll bury yourself.
The spirit of the rule is that the hosts don't want a claim to be the defining factor in anything; rather, we should be using tells and in-thread evidence to build cases and defend against them. It's basically a reaction to a few recent games that were straight-up decided by massclaims.
If the hosts laid out specific rules, we'd just spend the game trying to find loopholes in them, which is counterproductive to what they're trying to get us to do. I suspect they're vague because this way we aren't sure how far we can go, and so we aren't claiming at all. Does it massively nerf investigative Abilities? Yeah, totally. But I believe the hosts are trying to show us that investigative Abilities aren't needed to win the game. (@NinjaPenguin@Vracken tagging y'all 'cause you might wanna clarify your position on this.)
The issue is that the game doesn't seem built around them all too well: my reward for the certamen, for example, was a one-use investigative ability, but when I asked the hosts for confirmation that if I shared the results of this ability it wouldn't trigger anti-claim mechanics, they weren't willing to provide me this confirmation. Therefore, that's a logical reason I have to not share the results, or even who I decided to target, because there is a host-confirmed plausibility that sharing those results would trigger anti-claim mechanics. And what feels restrictive is the fact that we have mechanics that might trigger upon sharing results with the rest of the players, but still have roles in the game which provide results. It renders those roles completely useless, especially since they're pretty weak in the first place (though the first certamen apparently had a strong prize if we trust the flip, so the certamen I won having a phenomenally weak prize may be the exception rather than the rule), so it's not like one player finds out for certain the X is mafia and, though they can't share their results, guns for them like nobody's business. It's more like one player finds out for certain that X targeted Y last night, which is pretty useless even if you can share it with all the other players, and the mechanics do feel disconnected from the game design.
Though yeah, this is pretty weird. In your case specifically, because we already know what the certamen does, I'm inclined to think it wouldn't actually trigger the anti-claim mechanics if you were to claim a result. On the other hand, for somebody with an investigative Ability that's part of their initial role, claiming such an Ability would trigger them. Does that make any sense? Dx
Yeah, but Lele's flip gives us information which we can use to do VCAs of D1 and whatnot. It'll be very very helpful even though the case on Lele outside of the reveal hasn't reached consensus.
RE: whether or not the Lele flip is fake; I think there's a decent possibility simply because Lele has been defending really quite well, honestly, especially for their experience. Eitherway, here's the scenarios that I've thought of, none of which I would consider particularly bastard, as it would serve as something of balance, especially if this game is high-information:
- the flip is entirely true. Problem: Lele's defense is rather good, albeit convoluted.
- the effect used to post Lele's role is unreliable, and it was known by T_E, but he didn't end up sharing it. Problem: Why wouldn't T_E have claimed? Anti-claim mechanics doesn't quite seem like a good reason, especially since he ended up claiming it being after-death anyways.
- Lele has a Passive Ability that causes their role to flip as mafian (Lele is a miller) who isn't allowed to claim miller. Problem: The role flip has very clearly mafian Abilities (i.e. trying to escape the channel), which would mean the hosts did not simply write "mafian" instead of "innocent", but created an entirely new role.)
- The mafians have a role that can make players flip incorrectly. Problem: Bastard, but it's not that unlikely unfortunately. This role does exist and can be very well implemented, but only in fun / flippy / highly casual games even then.
- the role flipping effect is unreliable and T_E didn't know. Problem: Bastard (which I think is very unlikely), and it would mean that the hosts were reliant on flavour based on the Oracle of Delphi to cause us to doubt the flip, which is extremely odd.
RE: the anti-claim mechanic; I thought a bit about anti-claim mechanics when designing the Mafia 50 game - and truth be told, they are very easy to work around and shouldn't be that powerful. In fact, with all considered, they should do their job quite well - encourage people to avoid claiming their role frivolously. Single tip to beating the system? Be vague or don't tell the full truth. And if you're about to be lynched, you have nothing to lose anyway - so claim completely.
How should you claim?
- DO claim your role if you're about be lynched or if you've caught a likely / confo-scum
- DO only ever claim the parts of your role that need to be claimed in that context.
- DO claim fully ONLY if you're about to be lynched, and if doing so helps the town make a better decision.
- DO be vague when specifics are not needed. Telling the town that your Ability relates to the Certamen should not trigger mechanics. Telling the town that you have an investigative role should not trigger mechanics. Apart from being utterly absurd, basically everyone will have vagued their role by Day 3 / 4, which would make such a mechanic far too abusable (and I trust that our hosts will not make this game broken).
- DO tell half-truths when claiming information. i.e. If you're a seer, you could claim being a dreamer, or that you got that information from someone else
- DO NOT claim your role name unless necessary
- DO NOT claim your role unless doing so gives significant information that directly improves the scumhunt
- DO NOT be specific or obvious about any hints that you give to the thread about your role. OR, don't hint at all.
*If your role is not very powerful, then you're obviously going to care much less about any anti-claim mechanics
I mean, all of these rules are pretty standard even when anti-claim mechanics don't exist. If you claim a strong role, you are waving a bright red flag saying "I'm a threat, kill me now". If you claim a weak role, you are waving a bright green flag saying "I'm useless, don't kill me". Guys, its common sense.
It's outright absurd that people use this as an excuse; maybe even more absurd than the fart such mechanics even exist. Claim=>"Copy/Pasting your role or parts of it in the thread".
People have been using this an excuse? I can only think of Lele, and it wasn't that there was anti-claim mechanics - it was that the role specifically said you couldn't claim it, or that's the impression I got at least.
Now that we are pretty much case-closed on Lele's fate, I suggest one of the more inactive players for tomorrow's lynch. This refers to many of the people highlighted in the last vote count excluding Luispipe as they have yet to post up to this point. Also Lele is of course excluded.
*amending; "none of which I would consider particularly bastard," this should not be in that post - I realised there was a couple of more-bastard, plausible scenarios after writing that.
Mod Note:
This post was originally deleted. It has since been undeleted as the rules of the game explicitly tell members not to edit or delete their posts. Keep this in mind @Luxinity
It seems strange to me how piously you're sticking to this definition to the point of being willing to dish out suspicion to anyone who doesn't agree with it (which is everyone), and really make me think you have a greater knowledge of these anti-claim mechanics than the rest of us.
a. Not dish out suspicion to whoever disagrees, but for those that use it as a non-sensical excuse. I said it a couple times already.
b. Oh, trust me, if I knew /any/ more of the mechanic I wouldn't make such a fuzz and, highly probably, would share it anyways even if it meant toughening up my wincon as scum/indie/whatever because I insist it's a rather restrictive rule and one I'd rather not play with. Look at how much discussion it has brought up, and we accomplish barely nothing by doing so.
The spirit of the rule is that the hosts don't want a claim to be the defining factor in anything; rather, we should be using tells and in-thread evidence to build cases and defend against them. It's basically a reaction to a few recent games that were straight-up decided by massclaims.
Can't really vouch on that since apparently those were games from before I returned to Mafia. But even if it was, if you're worried about /that particular scenario/ then go with a Vanilla game. If what you're trying to enforce heavily is discussion and deduction on behavior then that's the only way. But if you're going to make a role madness game with a rule that shuts your mouth half of the time then it's just counterproductive and doesn't "fix" what you were trying to acomplish in the first time, because roles /WILL/ be a defining factor the moment a role is different than the other. Whether you want it or not. And to further emphasize this:
- DO claim your role if you're about be lynched or if you've caught a likely / confo-scum
- DO only ever claim the parts of your role that need to be claimed in that context.
- DO be vague when specifics are not needed. Telling the town that your Ability relates to the Certamen should not trigger mechanics. Telling the town that you have an investigative role should not trigger mechanics. Apart from being utterly absurd, basically everyone will have vagued their role by Day 3 / 4, which would make such a mechanic far too abusable (and I trust that our hosts will not make this game broken).
- DO tell half-truths when claiming information. i.e. If you're a seer, you could claim being a dreamer, or that you got that information from someone else
People have been using this an excuse? I can only think of Lele, and it wasn't that there was anti-claim mechanics - it was that the role specifically said you couldn't claim it, or that's the impression I got at least.
We're almost in the end of Day 2 and you still make this kind of questions? This should have been asked before the game even started; or RVS at the latest. If you're willing to play at least know what you're getting into and get some help from the mods. But this are questions that shouldn't be asked this far into the game.
It's a rule that doesn't apply to many other people than me, as far as I can tell.
If you want to be technical, yeah, I see your point. However, I'm just pointing out an example to show that this Oracle might not be an absolute source of authority, unlike the other host reveal we got today:
We don't seem to get the tagline now, do we?
Also, btw, the flavor behind this message really made me laugh
My only experience so far is with TE's on death ability from the last game, which had him act after he died - my experience still isn't completely comprehensive. I didn't know that they were "quite common" as you say - from my perspective, it seems like this implementation of an ondeath ability is inferior, as it requires more work/management on behalf of the host and the user. It seemed odd that this implementation would be chosen, as it makes things a bit more complex, but I guess it does give the user the advantage of immediately activating the ability
@Tapu Lele If not you, who do you think should be lynched today? I'm very specific about saying "who should be lynched" instead of "who do you think is scummy", by the way - I'm of the mind that you should absolutely and definitely be lynched at this point, even if I'm feeling increasingly uncertain about what you will flip.
I think you might have gone a bit overboard with this question, especially considering how most of the entire discussion has been focused on my "flip", or connecting people to me. That really only leaves me as the most substantial lynch candidate. I don't want to kill myself, meanie :c
On top of that, most of what I say will come out sounding like OMGUS because practically everyone has agreed on my lynch. That said, here are my thoughts on people, regardless if it OMGUS, or it appears that I'm backstabbing people:
**************************************************************************************************
LUXINITY
Lynch: DEFINITELY NOT
Scummy: Doesn't matter
Behavior: Odd and Inactive
So we haven't heard much from this member. Yet, they are host-confirmed town. Something like that might be dangerous to mafia (especially late game, with less people present), so Lux is going to be on the NK chopping block sometime soon.
I find it really odd though. Lux's ability wasn't likely triggered by any command that was sent to the mods.
Notice that this post was made after the alignment reveal:
Therefore, something likely happened automatically that revealed Lux's alignment. But what? If you look up a bit more history about Marcus Calpurnius Bibulus, you'll find that he vetoed a bill presented by Caesar and ended up publicly humiliated so much that he abstained for the rest of his term as consul.
Is there something else happening that we should be caring about?
**************************************************************************************************
ACETRAINER_SAMWISE
Lynch: Wouldn't help -- No one has really interacted with him
Scummy: As much as T_E
Behavior: Same as T_E
I feel like there's deja-vu here, but Samwise appears to parrot or "agree with" and restate people's existing arguments quite a bit.
There are a whole bunch of reasons for this lynch that other players have already mentioned. But the main reason for this vote is because he's trying to figure out the roles this especially scummy because of all the warnings against it. Even if he was town the role fishing would hurt us more than it would help us. Since Lele "role fished" last game you would think he'd learn since it ultimately got him night killed. It's possible he's confident he won't be n'ked because he's scum. In my opinion he's the best option out of all the other candidates.
I've read over a few of the past games and he is playing very similarly to how he does when he's scum. He also seems to fly under the radar and never make to big of a scene when he does post.
If we lynch Lele it gives us alot of information so he is probably our option. Especially by looking at all the people who have defended him like Cel.
I think one way we could clear this whole situation up is to know if there actually is a basement chat. If there is than Lele is scum if not than he's (most likely) not scum.
One player we need to keep an eye on is Celever he is playing very similarily to how Yog did in the last game. We have to be careful as he is taking a leadership role. If he starts pushing bad lynches than he needs to go. He also seems to fly under the radar as he seems afraid to put attention on himself and never once put his vote on one of the prime lynch candidates so far. In my opinion all he's done is create and confusion by trying to make a problem where there isn't one, and quite obviously trying to take attention off of the most important issue (Lele).
Also @Celever your vote being one me does nothing and is not a very logical as we have better options such as bbninjas and Tapu Lele. Not only that but your vote is based off off of an imaginary scumslip that never happened.
I've read over a few of the past games and he is playing very similarly to how he does when he's scum. He also seems to fly under the radar and never make to big of a scene when he does post.
This is his second game, and he hasn't played with bbninjas in a game yet, right? I find it just a bit hard to believe that you could read over past games and identify a shift in bb's playstyle. It would take a LOT of reading, and a really good idea of how he plays in general - something that is learned through interaction better than reading.
However, the opportunity to make this statement was golden, especially considering that someone else stated it, but didn't press on it very hard yet:
I don't remember who asked for this but iirc someone wanted the reason why TE was scummy in the certamen QT?
31
TOTAL EPICNESS
05-29-2018
06:56 AM ET (US)
I never said I wanted nobody too get it but Celever was saying it doesn’t matter if mafia gets it so I pointed out that if they get it yeah it doesn’t benefit them but we don’t get any benefits
30
DoS
05-29-2018
06:43 AM ET (US)
Ayyy gottem
29
DoS
05-29-2018
06:43 AM ET (US)
Is this how you bold...?
##Prize:Cel
28
NinjaPenguinPerson was signed in when posted
05-29-2018
06:36 AM ET (US)
You have 11.5 hours left to decide who gets the prize! Be sure to get your votes in by then!
27
MQ DreadPerson was signed in when posted
05-28-2018
10:52 PM ET (US)
TE, you rather no one receive it compare to the small chance mafia receiving the ability. Thats totally make no sense
26
DoS
05-28-2018
09:02 PM ET (US)
So would you rather just abstain from giving a potential townie a good ability?
25
TOTAL EPICNESS
05-28-2018
02:29 PM ET (US)
Yeah but the point is that if mafia gets it then we won’t get it
24
CeleverPerson was signed in when posted
05-28-2018
02:18 PM ET (US)
I'll make a case on him in the thread Day 2.
23
Tapu LelePerson was signed in when posted
05-28-2018
01:54 PM ET (US)
Could you elaborate a bit more on what you mean by bb's scum meta? I don't have the luxury of playing any games with him before.
22
CeleverPerson was signed in when posted
05-28-2018
01:48 PM ET (US)
D'awww thanks guys <3 Ironic that I wasn't here for that entire conversation when I'm being voted for my activity, but still
Tbf as this is some sort of investigative ability it doesn't even really matter if it ends up on mafia. Like it'd be a shame because town would lose that information, but it's not like mafia would gain an awful lot from it, as 95% of investigative abilities are based on figuring out who the mafia are, which the mafia knows already. And the bulletproof is fine cos that's just nightkill which mafia wouldn't kill themselves, either.
Not that I am mafia so this is by-the-by, just throwing it out there. I'll put my vote on Drac cos he's the next-most experienced player in this chat and he would also do well with this ability. Not that that means the rest of y'all shouldn't vote me, you totally should.
Also putting this here for posterity in the postgame: bb's definitely mafia: this is his scum meta all over.
21
MQ DreadPerson was signed in when posted
05-28-2018
10:35 AM ET (US)
No point argueing if there scum in here. This chat us just for the day and as long ad we dont post any crucial info about each of us. If the scum is here. The most they would know is who we plan to give the ability which based on what i read on NP post would be public information either way.
Im guessing this chat would not be used for other rounds
20
DoS
05-28-2018
09:16 AM ET (US)
That's a good point, TE. We really don't. I could be scum, you could be scum. We're basically doing this blind. But we only have this chat to choose from. You and lele don't exactly have the best rep rn, so even if you were town and could use this ability for good, I highly doubt scum would want to kill you. Drac is incredibly hard to read, and me and him aren't the most productive when it comes to these games. Celever might be scum, but he also might not be. If he is, then yeah that's not good, but if he's town, then we just made one of the few active players in this game bulletproof for a night.
Idk about you but I'm willing to take that risk.
19
TOTAL EPICNESS
05-28-2018
09:07 AM ET (US)
Celever is probably a good choice
But how do we know that scum hasn’t infiltrated this
However, I don't know what lynching samwise would do for us at all. Just something to consider.
**************************************************************************************************
GEKKI
Lynch: Maybe. But it really only would provide information on me, so I guess it would be kinda fruitless
Scummy: Only if I was scum
Behavior: MIA
We have seen 0 Posts from him today. ZERO. WHAT!?
He was accused of distancing himself from me after I was "rolefishing". Then when it was "revealed that I was scum" (which I'm not, if it wasn't clear), he falls off of the face of the earth.
And this post reeks of OMGUS. Jplap, you haven't posted anything of substance, you've just dodged questions & thrown some OMGUS. I'm keeping my vote on you until you actually start doing something.
As for Lele, I'm not sure. He seems to be genuinely confused as this is his first real game to me.
Did he decide that posting the way he did was too dangerous for him?
Is it typical behavior for him to leave after the first day or so (happened last game)?
Maybe he genuinely believes I am scum, and doesn't want to risk being attributed with me?
**************************************************************************************************
SCATTERED MIND
Lynch: Maybe?
Scummy: No direct scummy behavior I'm aware of
Behavior: Scattered
Whenever I read his posts, I feel like I'm missing something.
This rash behavior just doesn't sit well with the rest of his posts. It was in response to my defense on why I would not be this "Rullus" character in some Basement.
Here's something I propose: maybe he's also in the basement?
If this were the case, I think it would make sense
Something I said might have struck a chord with the people who are in the basement. Maybe they can't say anything about their role either, and thus this "Rullus" character shouldn't be able to say anything about their role as well? This would line up my story with this "Rullus" character and make me appear as if I am indeed "Rullus"
Other people in the basement could be coming up with their own lines of reasoning behind the scenes as to why I must be lying. SM could jump on these reasons to go after me, but it would cause a break in logic in thread. Maybe this reasoning cannot even be discussed in the thread?
Knowing that I'm not "Rullus", the real "Rullus" in the basement could have instructed people to go after me as scum.
Maybe he's the real Rullus?
Regardless, this is all speculation for the most part. I don't see too much to gain by lynching him, but it is something to note
**************************************************************************************************
Lynch: ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Scummy: Kinda.
Behavior: Hasty, and unproductive
Now that we are pretty much case-closed on Lele's fate, I suggest one of the more inactive players for tomorrow's lynch. This refers to many of the people highlighted in the last vote count excluding Luispipe as they have yet to post up to this point. Also Lele is of course excluded.
Well, since Tapu Lele was revealed as Mafia with yesterdays lynch: ##VOTE:Tapu Lele
to answer Jabber...
My first game was Town of Salem in which I was Mafia.
I was simply stating as I did before that they could all turn vengeful in different ways, some more passive, others more aggressive. Altogether, their reactions will be different.
Are you really trying to help town? Because you sound more like you are just trying to keep to the minimum post count.
**************************************************************************************************
MORDACAZIR
Lynch: Neutral
Scummy: No
Behavior: Contrary
Seems town if Lele isnt scum, is a little scummy if Lele flips scum. So 90% it’s a good town post.
TE goes on about the jplap stuff while it has been said multiple times that rolefishing is scummy. FoS on TE. And to comment on the question itself: If Jplap doesnt think of it one of his teammates does. Doesnt matter if it’s his 2nd or 100th game, it’s something you decide and come up with together with your buddies.
I think it’s ironic/funny how when Jplap knows he made 25% of the posts he just says he’s going to diseappear for 2 days.
Probably am reading into this too much, but I believe that one of these characters are scum, while the other is town.
************************************************************************************************** @Professor_jplap
Lynch: Leaning
Scummy: Leaning
Behavior: Same as Gekki
What happened? After seeing Mirdo's "Activity" post, he falls off of the face of the earth:
Did he really feel that this was indication of him being scummy? Why haven't we heard a word from him, since?
He isn't helping us much at all. He didn't even contribute in the Certamen chat when it happened.
I might go for a Jplap lynch, but I'm not sure what we would learn from it. I might double check later on all of his posts (and their reactions) to see what we can gain.
**************************************************************************************************
Celever, bbinjas, Jabberwock
You guys are active enough already. It's also really hard to analyze all of your posts when there is just so much to read through at the moment. Whatever you are doing, it's been leading discussion, which usually can help town regardless, so I wouldn't really push a lynch for you guys.
Also, I'm really tired of analyzing posts atm .-.
**************************************************************************************************
Conclusion: Unfortunately, there aren't too many better lynch candidates than me, thanks to much talk only centered about me and my defense. From those I listed, there are a few people who might seem scummy or strange that might be helpful to lynch, but they wouldn't tell us enough (as far as I see so far) if we were to lynch them.
Way to be mean bb. Now even I want to lynch myself :U
The spirit of the rule is that the hosts don't want a claim to be the defining factor in anything; rather, we should be using tells and in-thread evidence to build cases and defend against them.
That's the best post in the game so far; I wish you weren't screwed by abilities so you could keep making more of them (#451, not #452 but that's also very true hahaha).
Your point on Samwise is one that I hadn't considered, and I think it's a good lead heading into Day 3. Particularly when looking at his comment on bb's scum meta: it's kinda the clearest example of his play throughout this game of echoing points that have already been made and never coming up with his own. I didn't even realise that dos posted the entire chat into the thread, ngl, I thought he only put in the bits relevant to TE, so I thought it was the one original thing Samwise said the entire time, at the time.
Your speculation that scattered is in the basement chat is the conclusion I drew as well, but didn't bring up because I didn't think it would assist discussion (because of the anti-claim mechanics). In this context, though, bringing it up is fine. It's worth looking into tomorrow as well, especially if you flip town. In fact, if you flip town, I'd put scattered's chance of being mafia at like, 85%, as if he's in the basement chat there's no way he should push your lynch if you're town, as he'll know who else is in the basement with him.
I do have one more question though, Lele. If you had to choose one of myself, bb or Jabs to lynch (though I agree we shouldn't lynch any of us for now because activity in the game would divebomb), who would it be?
Are you guys seriously entertaining the fact that Lele could be town? You guys are getting played hard. The longer you leave the worst Tapu alive, the longer he can try to convince you not to lynch him. Of course he's going to claim it wasn't his role, he has no choice but to.
Don't wait. We have all of day 3 to discuss the day 3 lynch, as was said. Turbo this confo scum and fos to anyone who says otherwise. Massive fos to bb regardless.
##UNVOTE:
Before people misinterpret this long running joke
And @Celever, that's a pretty hard question. Let's see...
I think I would lynch Jabberwock. Maybe you could call that OMGUS because he started my whole lynch, but the tone of jabberwock's posts seem like they lead, question, and assert more, whereas your posts and bb's posts seem to discuss hypotheses and make suggestions.
That's at least the feeling I get when reading them. I probably am wrong here, and these are probably just characteristics that are reminiscent of your personalities. I don't really have enough info to make a clear deduction.
This rash behavior just doesn't sit well with the rest of his posts. It was in response to my defense on why I would not be this "Rullus" character in some Basement.
Here's something I propose: maybe he's also in the basement?
I mistakenly thought of something related to my ability, but was wrong about it. I am not in the basement. All I know is that Tapu Lele was revealed as scum by the host, and that the fastest way to know about the host’s reliability is by lynching Lele today.
