Finished Mafia LI: Senate Subterfuge~Game Over!

[NinjaPenguin]

Certamen: Discipulus Clarus Results​

The results for the first certamen are in! There were five responses, and the most common correct (note that a lot of submissions forgot the before 64 BC rule, so there was one time when the most common answer to a question was not correct) answer for each question is shown below:

Spoiler: Questions

-What is a battle that the Romans lost? Battle of the Allia
-What was a slave/plebeian revolt during the Roman Republic? Third Servile War/Conflict of the Orders
-Who was a king of Rome, besides Romulus? Lucius Tarquinius Superbus
-What is a decisive battle that the Romans won? Battle of Zama
-What man has become synonymous with a conflict against Rome, rather than his civilization? Julius Caesar
-What was an enemy Rome faced while it was a kingdom? The Latins
-What was a law/set of laws present in the Roman Republic? The Twelve Tables
-What Roman general fought in the Punic Wars? Scipio Africanus (Publius Cornelius Scipio)
-Who was a member of the First Triumvirate? Julius Caesar
-Who was a Roman that was declared dictator? Julius Caesar
-Who was a Roman author? Spurius Mummius/Virgil/Ovid/Catullus/Caesar
-What civilization, besides the Carthaginians, did the Romans fight multiple wars against? Gauls
-What was a slave uprising that affected Rome? Third Servile War
-What was a Roman Province? Aegyptus

The final standings were:

Spoiler: Standings

1st: 12 Points
2nd: 9 Points
3rd: 7 Points
4th: 5 Points
5th: 4 Points

The winner of the prize was... @TOTAL_EPICNESS! Congratulations! You will be PM'd the details of the prize you won!

 

[Tapu Lele]

I can understand your poking earlier re: Jplap's role, but why did you feel the need to be really specific on these questions (especially the first)? Because you keep asking questions of jplap, I assume you were expecting a response, and that this wasn't entirely a joke. I'm especially irked by how you would near-definitely get a role-related response to the first question; so why would you ignore the don't claim warnings to get information about that?

Woah, hold on a minute. I'm just trying to get info on the only lead I had, which pertained to Jplap's boast of a powerful abilty that was undermined by his posting behavior. I haven't asked for a claim yet.
I'm not too interested in the content of the ability itself, hence my backpedaling on the rolehunting it appeared I was doing, but I am interested if he was acting in a way to get himself killed. This is for 2 reasons

1 of them, is pretty clear already. I speculated that maybe he had an ability that activates on death. I hinted towards my intentions with these two posts:

To be honest, when you said that you had an ability that could really change the game for the better of the town, it sounds like you are referring to an ability that acts once to change the game completely.


Abilities like that usually can be triggered once per game, and often work upon a certain event.


Something sounds fishy about about this when you put these two ideas together. If it were to be indeed a powerful ability that works upon a certain event, why even mention it? Things like that are best kept a secret.

@Professor_jplap Are you perhaps, trying to get yourself nightkilled by claiming a powerful ability?
Or are you making these statements because you can't be nightkilled by being on the scum team?

However, it wasn't until Gekki asked this question

Why would you want to be nightkilled? wut

I felt the need to help clarify what possibility I was investigating and posing to the chat, so others wouldn't be confused. I thought it might be useful for the thread to know that this was a possibility here, because something like this could is important to take into account when deciding a lynch (as it could pose a negative side effect to town if it were a powerful scum ability).

On the other hand, I guess I'm being extremely careless here by doing this . If Jlap were to have a town ability that acts on death and was trying to provoke a nightkill, I would be in turn foiling his plan by exposing his ability. That would definitely sound scummy, and I don't blame you if you want to lynch me for it. Though I think it would make more sense for me to discuss all of privately with scum team if I were scum...

The second reason follows from the first. I remember what you told me privately about Robin's onDeath ability from the last game -

...if you had actually got that Ability, no way should you actually claim it
The optimal play would be to claim something that the mafians will want out of the game immediately, and they'll kill you
Then your ability activates, and happy days

So, suspecting that he had an onDeath ability, I wanted to see if his intentions corresponded with how he should be acting. If I had stumbled upon an answer like "No" from the first question, I would press him as his behavior did not match up with that of a person trying to survive. If he said "Yes", I would know that something is blatantly wrong here - there's no way he should be revealing something like that. It would lead me to think that he's just building a fake case to make himself useless to lynch, and that just sounds really scummy early game.

But when I asked this question, I didn't get anything role specific. I got "Maybe". It doesn't tell me much of anything. I don't exactly know anything more about his ability now either, despite you saying I would near-definitely get a role-related response to the first question
*************************************************************************************************************

That contradiction by Lele is the best lead, imo. Gekki's response is normal to me. He was even a bit more aggressive and/or pressured as town in past games, from what I remember.

I'm not exactly sure which contradiction you are referring to. I've pointed out above that it appears I was rolehunting someone that might be more valuable to not rolehunt because the role in question would be beneficial to town. I'm not very fond of the discussion I've put on Jplap's role because of how rolehunting lost me the last game, but it was the only lead had to pursue at the time :/

If you can let me know what contradiction in particular I'm tripped up on, let me know so I can clarify my posts.
*************************************************************************************************************
Also, it appears a lot of people are jumping my wagon now.
I have 2 votes on me at this moment, those voting are Jabber and Luis. Clever also says he'll vote for me later, so I guess you can say there are 3 votes on me

Vote for me if you want, I'll admit it's probably a better lead than simply analyzing the posting behavior of characters like TE and Jplap. But please do consider the full context of my posts before riding Jabber's post.

In the last game, mafia told me in the deadchat that they should have killed me off much earlier on because of my posting behavior. I wouldn't be surprised if that were the case here too.

 

[mirdo]

I'm also in this game.
I was asleep.

But let it be known that almost 25% of all posts are made by jplap.

See you in like 8 Days again o/ (hope not)

 

[Professor_jplap]

Just fyi I won't be very active today and tomorrow

 

[Jabberwock]

I'm not exactly sure how WIFOM is related to the question I asked tbh. Do you think that Gekki would have confidentially asserted that particular defense, had he intentionally and knowingly attempted to distance himself from Lele?

The reason being that Gekki normally gives WIFOMy reasons when he himself believes that reason to be the valid and only (correct) interpretation (i.e. when he claims to always play scummy, when called out for scummy play).

Ohh I see what you're saying. Okay, so I said "FoS on Gekki if Lele flips scum" not because I thought he was trying to distance himself from Lele, but because he was trying to stop discussion of claiming (which was super super relevant, because at the time we were talking about Lele rolefishing). Given that, it would be NAI for him to try to WIFOM his way out of it like he did.

I'm trying to decide whether I can see what he posted as distancing himself from Lele. From a reread of that page, I don't see it. Maybe if he had posted it earlier, before I called Lele out for rolefishing, but in context it looks like he's trying to stop that discussion. Which obvs makes it pretty suss if Lele flips scum.

Orrr I wasn't trying to distance myself from him, I was just trying to keep us talking about useful things :U

The discussion being had was very useful––to the town. I can understand why it might not have been for you and Lele. ^.^

Looking at that post a second time (Lele's), it does seem kind of off to me as well.

Why? Be specific.

So, suspecting that he had an onDeath ability, I wanted to see if his intentions corresponded with how he should be acting. If I had stumbled upon an answer like "No" from the first question, I would press him as his behavior did not match up with that of a person trying to survive. If he said "Yes", I would know that something is blatantly wrong here - there's no way he should be revealing something like that. It would lead me to think that he's just building a fake case to make himself useless to lynch, and that just sounds really scummy early game.

So here's the main problem with that. You assumed that he had an on-death ability (ooh can I call 'em "spacetime warps") and used that assumption to calibrate questions that he could only answer to your liking if he did indeed have an ability like that––thereby confirming that he has that ability. This is role-fishing––and there's probably some other fancy word to describe the circular logic, but idk what it is. In any case, it's unhelpful.

But when I asked this question, I didn't get anything role specific. I got "Maybe". It doesn't tell me much of anything. I don't exactly know anything more about his ability now either, despite you saying I would near-definitely get a role-related response to the first question

Idk who "you" is in this bit, but none of it makes the slightest bit of sense. You can't justify asking scummy questions by the fact that they weren't answered favorably.

 

[Tapu Lele]

So here's the main problem with that. You assumed that he had an on-death ability (ooh can I call 'em "spacetime warps") and used that assumption to calibrate questions that he could only answer to your liking if he did indeed have an ability like that––thereby confirming that he has that ability. This is role-fishing––and there's probably some other fancy word to describe the circular logic, but idk what it is. In any case, it's unhelpful.

Idk who "you" is in this bit, but none of it makes the slightest bit of sense. You can't justify asking scummy questions by the fact that they weren't answered favorably.

Okay, I finally did some research on how role fishing is defined in the mafia wikipedia pages, and I agree. I was role fishing here, looking for information that a person like Jplap could only answer since he was the one solely with information on his ability.

"You" was bbninjas. It was a long built response to his post

I was trying to justify the role fishing by saying that it could pressure Jplap either way, so I could bring more info to the table here and maybe catch him on something given his behavior - the statement that it didn't work was meant to be after the fact. Either way, I guess it's really hard to explain this all as trying to help people with more leads given what means were used to do so. I got caught up in my own theories once again and got carried away :U

I know it's a general rule that all role fishing is indicative of scummy behavior, but would you be able to explain why you think it's so scummy here?

Also, @GekkisaiDaiNi was essentially applying the same role pressure as I was doing with this extremely followup question:

Why would you want to be nightkilled? wut

However, I don't recall you ever finding a problem with that. The question was also asserting that Jplap wanted to be nightkilled despite Jplap's ambiguous answer to my prior question.

 

[Celever]

Okay, I finally did some research on how role fishing is defined in the mafia wikipedia pages, and I agree. I was role fishing here, looking for information that a person like Jplap could only answer since he was the one solely with information on his ability.

"You" was bbninjas. It was a long built response to his post

I was trying to justify the role fishing by saying that it could pressure Jplap either way, so I could bring more info to the table here and maybe catch him on something given his behavior - the statement that it didn't work was meant to be after the fact. Either way, I guess it's really hard to explain this all as trying to help people with more leads given what means were used to do so. I got caught up in my own theories once again and got carried away :U

I know it's a general rule that all role fishing is indicative of scummy behavior, but would you be able to explain why you think it's so scummy here?

Also, @GekkisaiDaiNi was essentially applying the same role pressure as I was doing with this extremely followup question:

However, I don't recall you ever finding a problem with that. The question was also asserting that Jplap wanted to be nightkilled despite Jplap's ambiguous answer to my prior question.

Cos trying to see if his ability is valuable upon death rather than when he's still alive helps steer the scumkill efficiently.

Yeah I meant Gekki not TE in that other post.

 

[Jabberwock]

I know it's a general rule that all role fishing is indicative of scummy behavior, but would you be able to explain why you think it's so scummy here?

There are anti-claim mechanics in this game. You tried to get jplap to partial-claim by revealing something about his role (namely, whether or not he had an activate-on-death ability).

Also, @GekkisaiDaiNi was essentially applying the same role pressure as I was doing with this extremely followup question:

However, I don't recall you ever finding a problem with that. The question was also asserting that Jplap wanted to be nightkilled despite Jplap's ambiguous answer to my prior question.

That read as a rhetorical question to me, not a genuine rolefish.

Before I say anything further on that––'cause I think I'm reading jplap's response (and what followed) differently from how you are–– @Professor_jplap can you clarify your "maybe"? Was it a serious answer, or no?

 

[TOTAL_EPICNESS]

Ok I’m here after a while (yay I won the thing. I knew putting Caesar for as many answers as possible was a good idea) and I’m kinda lost but from what I can gather people think Lele is scum because rolefishing and that Gekki was trying to distance himself from Lele because he saw that Lele could be lynched and in the event Lele flips scum that would make Gekki seem less scummy

 

[Scattered mind]

know it's a general rule that all role fishing is indicative of scummy behavior, but would you be able to explain why you think it's so scummy here?

I read it as something possible said by bbninjas ..

 

[bbninjas]

Regarding Tapu Lele, I don't this role-fishing indicates that he's mafian. Lele seems to have thought through exactly what information he wanted to achieve (and how he wanted to use that to scumhunt), and so I think he had innocent intentions for asking for a semi-claim. That doesn't make it a good play, but I don't think it was a malicious play, which is what this case is revolving around. @Celever (and anyone else really), considering your post here, do you think Lele was intentionally obtaining information as to steer the nightkill?

The discussion being had [bbn context note: Gekki was trying to stop the discussion around roles] was very useful––to the town. I can understand why it might not have been for you and Lele. ^.^

There are anti-claim mechanics in this game. You tried to get jplap to partial-claim by revealing something about his role (namely, whether or not he had an activate-on-death ability).

I find this slightly ironic and contradictory, since you said that the role discussion was useful for the town, but then you imply that it's not pro-town at all because of anti-claim mechanics. So which one?

Before I say anything further on that––'cause I think I'm reading jplap's response (and what followed) differently from how you are–– @Professor_jplap can you clarify your "maybe"? Was it a serious answer, or no?

I also don't see why it is necessary for this to be clarified.

Ok I’m here after a while (yay I won the thing. I knew putting Caesar for as many answers as possible was a good idea) and I’m kinda lost but from what I can gather people think Lele is scum because rolefishing and that Gekki was trying to distance himself from Lele because he saw that Lele could be lynched and in the event Lele flips scum that would make Gekki seem less scummy

Yup, that's right. What do you think about all of that?

Also, do you think you should share anything related to the reward you won from the Certamen? And before people jump on me for role-fishing, I'm asking because I didn't have the time or motivation spare to look up any answers (and even guess them), but if the rewards are particularly powerful, we should all be putting in the effort as to keep the prizes out of mafian hands. (Because there's an informed team of them, and because being more powerful would be directly helpful to their wincon, I'd expect the mafians to be much more willing to participate than the innocents.)

 

[bbninjas]

I'm also in this game.
I was asleep.

But let it be known that almost 25% of all posts are made by jplap.

See you in like 8 Days again o/ (hope not)

Just fyi I won't be very active today and tomorrow

What are your thoughts on the discussion relating to Gekki and Tapu Lele over the past couple of pages or so?

 

[bbninjas]

Uhhhhhh... maybe a game on discord with only 4 or 5 players whenever the bot was last up? I have never played a forum game with gekki.

Aaah, that explains it. Gekki is normally hyper-aggressive / defensive, and so I would have found your interpretation that Gekki was being defensive very odd in contrast to his past games.

Celever is a bit aggressive, which is something I noticed with him in very recent games trying to get on the nerves of people, like TE. At least so it seems. Not sure what to make of it, though.

What do you mean by "very recent games"?

 

[Luispipe8]

Haven't read a thing in the past 2 days and probably won't for some days, sorry.
I'm requesting a permission to be absent this week. I got the chickenpox, and it's not pretty once you're already 21 y.o....
I'll catch up as soon as I'm recovered.
(And if I was summoned by anyone then sorry for missing it >.< )

 

[Celever]

Regarding Tapu Lele, I don't this role-fishing indicates that he's mafian. Lele seems to have thought through exactly what information he wanted to achieve (and how he wanted to use that to scumhunt), and so I think he had innocent intentions for asking for a semi-claim. That doesn't make it a good play, but I don't think it was a malicious play, which is what this case is revolving around. @Celever (and anyone else really), considering your post here, do you think Lele was intentionally obtaining information as to steer the nightkill?

Nah, I think he's innocent. I also think TE, Samwise etc. are right now, or at least we have no reason to actually believe they're mafia.

Here is a list of people who haven't done enough to have left an impression of any description on me yet -- town or mafia:
quakingpunch73
Professor_jplap
scattered mind
Jadethepokemontrainer
GM Draclord
Jabberwock
Luispipe8
TeamAqua4Life #HEYNICK
PMJ
bbninjas
mirdo
Dusk Form Lycanroc
Luxinity
double o squirtle
OshaCraft360

This is too much. We're a substantial way through Day 1 and I was able to name 9 players off the top of my head:
Samwise, TE, PMJ, bb, Jabs, dos, Lele, plap, Cel

I wouldn't have been able to say for certain that any of the other players had even signed up. Get to it.

 

[Jabberwock]

Regarding Tapu Lele, I don't this role-fishing indicates that he's mafian. Lele seems to have thought through exactly what information he wanted to achieve (and how he wanted to use that to scumhunt), and so I think he had innocent intentions for asking for a semi-claim. That doesn't make it a good play, but I don't think it was a malicious play, which is what this case is revolving around. @Celever (and anyone else really), considering your post here, do you think Lele was intentionally obtaining information as to steer the nightkill?

What Lele's doing bugs me bc iirc he did exactly the same thing for a while right after he subbed in last game, and then eventually got way better at playing and stopped doing the role spec stuff, even publicly acknowledging that he saw how it wasn't helpful in any way. Now he's right back to doing that. I can't think how else to explain it but that he's unused to playing scum so he reverted back to his initial playstyle.

I find this slightly ironic and contradictory, since you said that the role discussion was useful for the town, but then you imply that it's not pro-town at all because of anti-claim mechanics. So which one?

Talking about two different things: Lele rolefishing is not pro-town at all because of anti-claim mechanics; pursuing Lele for rolefishing is useful to the town because it's pressure/scumhunting. Gekki came in and posted in the middle of the latter.

I also don't see why it is necessary for this to be clarified.

I did not read jplap's "maybe" as a serious answer. I think Lele did. If I was wrong about that, then a lot of what I've said already has much less of a basis, so I believe it's important to clear it up now.

 

[TOTAL_EPICNESS]

So people have been wondering about my reward from the Certamen (namely BB) I’ve asked the hosts if it is ok for me to divulge that info and if it will trigger any anti claim measures so I’ll get back to you when i have those answers

 

[Celever]

So people have been wondering about my reward from the Certamen (namely BB) I’ve asked the hosts if it is ok for me to divulge that info and if it will trigger any anti claim measures so I’ll get back to you when i have those answers

The real question is whether knowing what perks you get will help the town more than the mafia. If yes, and the hosts clear it, then do. If no, then don't reveal it even if the hosts clear it.

 

[Vracken]

Heads up for everyone, @Luispipe8 is going to be on V/LA for a few days, and has cleared it with Penguinius and I.

 

[bbninjas]

What Lele's doing bugs me bc iirc he did exactly the same thing for a while right after he subbed in last game, and then eventually got way better at playing and stopped doing the role spec stuff, even publicly acknowledging that he saw how it wasn't helpful in any way. Now he's right back to doing that. I can't think how else to explain it but that he's unused to playing scum so he reverted back to his initial playstyle.

That's a good point!

Talking about two different things: Lele rolefishing is not pro-town at all because of anti-claim mechanics; pursuing Lele for rolefishing is useful to the town because it's pressure/scumhunting. Gekki came in and posted in the middle of the latter.

I don't think Gekki was trying to stop you (or anyone else) from pursuing Lele for rolefishing?

Lele stop talking about claiming, it's gone from being borderline useful to clogging the thread & making it harder for jplap to respond to the things that really matter

He was literally telling Lele to stop rolefishing because it isn't pro-town.