Card of the Day: Manaphy
Manaphy (Plasma Gale # 20) {9/20/12}
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Not worth using. The power seems nice but you have to give up a Prize for it (and having to reveal it doesn't help either, but probably won't matter as you will likely end up using the card you search for next turn). The attack, while cheap, is flippy, and only pulls from the discard. I guess I could see it being used as a one-of in Blastoise decks as something to help you pull ahead if you -really- need to attach some Energy, but then you run the risk of losing -another- Prize from Manaphy dying or--worse--getting the guy you attached to Catcher killed.
Unless this sees a drastic change in translation, keep it in the binder.
Unless this sees a drastic change in translation, keep it in the binder.
Maybe a 1 or 2 of in Blastoise/Keldio
I kinda like it. While it helps you, giving up a prize to help you set up may be worth it.
I kinda like it. While it helps you, giving up a prize to help you set up may be worth it.
Why so much hate? I love this thing. besides the art, which is amazing, it's an incredible starter or mid-game Pokemon in Keldeo/Blastoise. Seeing as Keldeo's only major problem is getting their energy discarded via hammers or similar, Manaphy can resolve all of your Aggron/Hammertime/etc. problems.
It also works as a starter, snaring that clutch rare candy when KO'd, making a Blastoise far easier to set up
It also works as a starter, snaring that clutch rare candy when KO'd, making a Blastoise far easier to set up
This card makes Ultra Ball and Juniper look a lot better for Keldeo/Blastiose. I mean, getting a Keldeo/Kyurem WITHOUT Blastiose is amazing. As for the ability cost, Terrakion involves a Prize lost, and he's doing just fine.
Dark Void said:
Blastiose Keldeo only had one starter, Lapras NXD, and he's the Emolga for this deck, but this deck doesn't really need a big bench. Let me ask something, would you rather use your supporter for turn with Skyla, or a N to refresh your hand. He has the same Hp as Sableye, who is a bench sitter unless needed. And lastly, how often do you have Blastiose T1?
Emopanda133 said:Blastiose Keldeo only had one starter, Lapras NXD, and he's the Emolga for this deck, but this deck doesn't really need a big bench. Let me ask something, would you rather use your supporter for turn with Skyla, or a N to refresh your hand. He has the same Hp as Sableye, who is a bench sitter unless needed. And lastly, how often do you have Blastiose T1?
How often do you discard 3 energies and get 3 heads.
It is not that easy to discard lots of energies to your discard pile T1. Unless you get manaphy 4 water and juniper in your starting hand, it is not that easy.
Sableye is the only really good starter in this format, aside from maybe Virizion and, in a very small amount of decks (empoleon and that's it really), emolga. but this deck doesn't really need a big bench.If using Skyla means I don't have to give up a prize that I would lose by using N, then Skyla. And Sableye gives you a guaranteed effect, and a really good one too (you'd pay 6 cards, 2 of them junk arm, for that same effect in HGSS-on. Manaphy's attack is a flippy Dark Patch. And how often do you get multiple energy in the discard and flip heads on manaphy's attack turn 1? Also, because it takes up the attack and an energy, you would have to get 2 or more water in the discard and flip 2 or more heads to attack on the next turn without Blastoise anyway, which is never happening.
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It depends on the deck. Sableye for Dark Varients, Emolga for decks that need a lot of bench, Trubbish for support power, Virizion for draw, Stunfisk,SR Rayquaza, Mewtwo EX, Tornadus (both) for Donks. There are alot of good starters in this format, and Manaphy is no different.
So you're going to search for a free card, GOING INTO YOUR TURN,and N it away before you use it?
Yes Manaphy's attack is a flippy Dark Patch, but that doesn't make it bad, you should be able to get at least one if not two heads to attach.
How are you going to get a lot of Energy into the discard? Simple, Ultra Ball, Juniper, the things Darkrai EX uses to get energy into the discard.
If you don't get Blastiose up T2, that's perfectly fine, let them take out Manaphy and you get a free card, which better get out a Blastiose. And if you go first, that's 6 chances to get at least one energy out of the discard, if you don't you have horrid luck.
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It depends on the deck. Sableye for Dark Varients, Emolga for decks that need a lot of bench, Trubbish for support power, Virizion for draw, Stunfisk,SR Rayquaza, Mewtwo EX, Tornadus (both) for Donks. There are alot of good starters in this format, and Manaphy is no different.
So you're going to search for a free card, GOING INTO YOUR TURN,and N it away before you use it?
Yes Manaphy's attack is a flippy Dark Patch, but that doesn't make it bad, you should be able to get at least one if not two heads to attach.
How are you going to get a lot of Energy into the discard? Simple, Ultra Ball, Juniper, the things Darkrai EX uses to get energy into the discard.
If you don't get Blastiose up T2, that's perfectly fine, let them take out Manaphy and you get a free card, which better get out a Blastiose. And if you go first, that's 6 chances to get at least one energy out of the discard, if you don't you have horrid luck.
Trubbish is not a starter; its like the thunder wave or 0 retreat tynamo in that its not terrible if you start with it but its used instead for its evolution. Mewtwo and Tornadus EX t1 donks are very very uncommon in BW-on, and gl getting dark in the discard+dark patch+benched dark type+energy switch+starting tornadus+DCE turn 1. As I said, Empoleon is the only deck that should ever run Emolga. I don't think Stunfisk is particularly good either but that's a discussion for another thread.
I'd rather start with Trubbish and Thunder Wave, because it helps with my setup, or stalls my opponent. Tornadus donks are pretty common in my meta.
...what. Your example was that I'm using Skyla to search for a card and you're letting Manaphy die and then using N. I don't get what you're saying at all; if anything it applies more to your argument than mine....
How you managed to misread that I don't know. What I meant was: Would you rather use Skyla to search for that one card, or get that one card at the cost of a prize, SAVE YOUR SUPPOTER FOR TURN, and use an N or a Juniper AFTER YOU PLAY THAT CARD? Yes you're giving up a prize, but again, Terrakion needs a prize lost to work effectivly.
No, it doesn't make it bad, it makes it not worth the energy attachment half the time.
It depends on how you play him, if you don't manage to get energy in the discard, then no, don't attach, cuz you can't even use the attack, but if you get at least two, it's completly worth the risk.
Ultra Ball and Juniper do not consistently get more than 1-2 energy in your discard on the first turn and leave you with any to attach to Manaphy, and any later than t1 and Manaphy is simply slowing your Blastoise setup.
I refer back to my Darkrai/Tornadus statement. This deck will run what? 12 Water Energy? So if you can Ultra Ball one or two away, and still not have enough for attach, something is wrong.
Because a smart player is going to take the easy prize early game that lets you set up rather than the easy prize later game once its effect is totally useless to you?
A late game Roserade isn't totally useless to Empoleon, believe me, I've been saved by my Roserade before. Searching for a clutch card is good at ANY time, early or late.
I'd rather start with Trubbish and Thunder Wave, because it helps with my setup, or stalls my opponent. Tornadus donks are pretty common in my meta.
...what. Your example was that I'm using Skyla to search for a card and you're letting Manaphy die and then using N. I don't get what you're saying at all; if anything it applies more to your argument than mine....
How you managed to misread that I don't know. What I meant was: Would you rather use Skyla to search for that one card, or get that one card at the cost of a prize, SAVE YOUR SUPPOTER FOR TURN, and use an N or a Juniper AFTER YOU PLAY THAT CARD? Yes you're giving up a prize, but again, Terrakion needs a prize lost to work effectivly.
No, it doesn't make it bad, it makes it not worth the energy attachment half the time.
It depends on how you play him, if you don't manage to get energy in the discard, then no, don't attach, cuz you can't even use the attack, but if you get at least two, it's completly worth the risk.
Ultra Ball and Juniper do not consistently get more than 1-2 energy in your discard on the first turn and leave you with any to attach to Manaphy, and any later than t1 and Manaphy is simply slowing your Blastoise setup.
I refer back to my Darkrai/Tornadus statement. This deck will run what? 12 Water Energy? So if you can Ultra Ball one or two away, and still not have enough for attach, something is wrong.
Because a smart player is going to take the easy prize early game that lets you set up rather than the easy prize later game once its effect is totally useless to you?
A late game Roserade isn't totally useless to Empoleon, believe me, I've been saved by my Roserade before. Searching for a clutch card is good at ANY time, early or late.
I'd rather start with Trubbish and Thunder Wave, because it helps with my setup, or stalls my opponent. Tornadus donks are pretty common in my meta.
Sure you'd rather start Trubbish or Thunder Wave than another non-starter, but that doesn't necessarily make it a starter, it makes it better to start with than your other Pokemon. As for the Tornadus donks, if tornadus active+dark mon benched+energy switch+dark patch+dark energy+way to get dark energy in the discard+DCE on the first turn is common in your meta, then the people in your meta are cheating, they're impossibly lucky, or we have very different definitions of common (or a combination). Sorry.
How you managed to misread that I don't know. What I meant was: Would you rather use Skyla to search for that one card, or get that one card at the cost of a prize, SAVE YOUR SUPPOTER FOR TURN, and use an N or a Juniper AFTER YOU PLAY THAT CARD? Yes you're giving up a prize, but again, Terrakion needs a prize lost to work effectivly.
That's exactly what I said. I'm using Skyla and not going down a prize, you're using N and going down a prize. Except you're arguing about me using N when my example is that I'd rather play Skyla. How you managed to misread that I don't know.
It depends on how you play him, if you don't manage to get energy in the discard, then no, don't attach, cuz you can't even use the attack, but if you get at least two, it's completly worth the risk.
If I get two energy in the graveyard on my first turn then attaching to Manaphy gives me a 25% chance of getting 2 energy back, aka advantageous, 50% chance of getting 1 energy back, aka disadvantageous (same amount of energy on my intended mon as if I had attached to them, but with energy in the discard where I might have wanted to discard something else or nothing at all) and 25% chance of getting nothing, which is really bad. So yeah its not worth it if 75% of the time you're getting negative to neutral effect out of it.
I refer back to my Darkrai/Tornadus statement. This deck will run what? 12 Water Energy? So if you can Ultra Ball one or two away, and still not have enough for attach, something is wrong.
12 energy hardly guarantees that you'll get 3+ on the first turn as well as a Juniper and/or Ultra Ball. Anyway, now let's do some math. The chances of you getting 3 water energy (12/60 x 11/59 x 10/58), an ultra ball (x 4/57) and a manaphy, assuming you run 4 (x 4/56) in 8 cards, maybe 7 more with juniper is like 110/227563, but of course its actually worse than that because you have to get your draw supporter, and get the cards in the right order. You can also get 2 water+manaphy+juniper, a 704/487635 chance, but note that you'll need to draw into an ultra ball or keldeo either in that case. Even assuming you're running 4 Keldeo even though most decks would run 3, the chances of that are 3/77, totaling 2112/37547895 for the second scenario. Reducing both scenarios to 1/x and adding them together we get under 1/19847. Considering only a quarter of the time will either of those scenarios actually benefit you anyway because of the flippiness of Manaphy's attack and we're at 1/79388 (most likely less) or so games in which you'll be able to use Manaphy's attack to get a single energy on Keldeo that you would not have gotten otherwise, and in a deck that can attach all the energy in its hand as soon as it sets up a stage 2. Is 4 cards worth that? I don't think so. My math might be wrong somewhere along the way, feel free to point out if it is.
A late game Roserade isn't totally useless to Empoleon, believe me, I've been saved by my Roserade before. Searching for a clutch card is good at ANY time, early or late.
Except with Roserade you get the card when you want it. With Manaphy you get it when your opponent wants you to. Roserade is better.
Sure you'd rather start Trubbish or Thunder Wave than another non-starter, but that doesn't necessarily make it a starter, it makes it better to start with than your other Pokemon. As for the Tornadus donks, if tornadus active+dark mon benched+energy switch+dark patch+dark energy+way to get dark energy in the discard+DCE on the first turn is common in your meta, then the people in your meta are cheating, they're impossibly lucky, or we have very different definitions of common (or a combination). Sorry.
How you managed to misread that I don't know. What I meant was: Would you rather use Skyla to search for that one card, or get that one card at the cost of a prize, SAVE YOUR SUPPOTER FOR TURN, and use an N or a Juniper AFTER YOU PLAY THAT CARD? Yes you're giving up a prize, but again, Terrakion needs a prize lost to work effectivly.
That's exactly what I said. I'm using Skyla and not going down a prize, you're using N and going down a prize. Except you're arguing about me using N when my example is that I'd rather play Skyla. How you managed to misread that I don't know.
It depends on how you play him, if you don't manage to get energy in the discard, then no, don't attach, cuz you can't even use the attack, but if you get at least two, it's completly worth the risk.
If I get two energy in the graveyard on my first turn then attaching to Manaphy gives me a 25% chance of getting 2 energy back, aka advantageous, 50% chance of getting 1 energy back, aka disadvantageous (same amount of energy on my intended mon as if I had attached to them, but with energy in the discard where I might have wanted to discard something else or nothing at all) and 25% chance of getting nothing, which is really bad. So yeah its not worth it if 75% of the time you're getting negative to neutral effect out of it.
I refer back to my Darkrai/Tornadus statement. This deck will run what? 12 Water Energy? So if you can Ultra Ball one or two away, and still not have enough for attach, something is wrong.
12 energy hardly guarantees that you'll get 3+ on the first turn as well as a Juniper and/or Ultra Ball. Anyway, now let's do some math. The chances of you getting 3 water energy (12/60 x 11/59 x 10/58), an ultra ball (x 4/57) and a manaphy, assuming you run 4 (x 4/56) in 8 cards, maybe 7 more with juniper is like 110/227563, but of course its actually worse than that because you have to get your draw supporter, and get the cards in the right order. You can also get 2 water+manaphy+juniper, a 704/487635 chance, but note that you'll need to draw into an ultra ball or keldeo either in that case. Even assuming you're running 4 Keldeo even though most decks would run 3, the chances of that are 3/77, totaling 2112/37547895 for the second scenario. Reducing both scenarios to 1/x and adding them together we get under 1/19847. Considering only a quarter of the time will either of those scenarios actually benefit you anyway because of the flippiness of Manaphy's attack and we're at 1/79388 (most likely less) or so games in which you'll be able to use Manaphy's attack to get a single energy on Keldeo that you would not have gotten otherwise, and in a deck that can attach all the energy in its hand as soon as it sets up a stage 2. Is 4 cards worth that? I don't think so. My math might be wrong somewhere along the way, feel free to point out if it is.
A late game Roserade isn't totally useless to Empoleon, believe me, I've been saved by my Roserade before. Searching for a clutch card is good at ANY time, early or late.
Except with Roserade you get the card when you want it. With Manaphy you get it when your opponent wants you to. Roserade is better.
Dark Void said:
That's pretty below the belt concidering I play Darkrai/Tornadus/Bouffalant and have gotten first turn Power Blast and Gold Breaker. Before you call it cheating, play the deck, see how it runs, it's very fast and very easy to get Donks.
I didn't say it had to be cheating; just that by my definitions of common such a thing is very mathematically improbable to get more than once in a while (would you like me to do the math for this too even though its totally unrelated to manaphy?)
Fisrt off, this is not Yu-Gi-Oh, there is no monsters or graveyard. Second, the Attack say you get three flips, garunteed, so that's three chances to get heads, which is a 33.3% chance of getting two energy and a 66.6% chance of getting one. While yes the 66.6% is the same as attaching to the intended POKEMON, it's not really worth the flip, but it's still worth the free card you get to search for. now, if you have two energy in the discard and you only get one one the first time around, that's great, because it becomes a win-win in your favor, you have another 66.6% chance of getting the other energy, or Manaphy gets KO'd, giving you a free card.
Graveyard=discard pile. So sorry. Mons can be pokemons too. You're right I missed that its 3 flips, that changes things to a whopping 1/39694 as opposed to 1/79388. Well that changed things. And uh how do you end up with 33% of 2 and 66% of 1? That's wrong already, it means you cannot flip 0 heads out of 3. In actuality,you have a 1/8 chance of 3 heads (since we're assuming you won't get 3 water in the discard that counts as 2), 1/8 of 0, and 3/8 or 1 and 3/8 of two. 50% chance that it will end up beneficial to you, and actually less because if you can get Blastoise up t2 then its almost completely pointless.
For my math, I got .21% for getting Manaphy (two copies) in your starting hand, a .388% chance of one water energy, a .476% for getting two, and a .327% of getting an Ultra Ball and Juinper (respectivly), how did I get these numbers, because it's the same numbers I came acrossed with Darkrai/Tornadus, now, these numbers may not seem promising, but it's a lot better than it looks, because all together, getting both energy back from the discard an all, (this took some math) you get a .274% of getting a perfect set up, so every one in four games with starting with Manaphy, now, while that doesn't seem pleasing, it's a 751% chance of getting one energy, so 3 out of 4 games. Now, that's starting with Manaphy which again is only a .21% chance, with 2 copies. So if you start with him, it it's great for you, if you don't, you now have 2 copies of Ultra Ball bait.
Don't use decimals and percents together like that. As it is, you're saying your chance of getting manaphy is .0021, chance of water is .00388, chance of two water is .00476, .00327 for ultra ball or juniper. Secondly, are you using mathematical probability or experimental probability? Most if not all of those numbers do not match anything I could get with a calculator at all, and I hope you realize that saying "I got x card y often once so I'll get it y often again" is not going to be accepted over actual probabilities very often when they differ significantly. Please correct me if you're using mathematical probability because I can't figure out how you got those numbers if you did.
Yes Roserade is better, that's not the point, the point is that getting a free card doesn't hurt, early or late game. You said the late card isn't worth it, a late game free search can help in any game. Also, your arguement to this topic actaully hurts your arguement to opening with Manaphy.
My argument is that Manaphy's attack is too bad and unreliable to make it a reliable starter and the opponent can simply avoid KOing Manaphy until it is convenient for them, not you, therefore making Roserade better if you're using it for its ability.
I for got to mention one thing, what if it's not a trainer you arelooking for with Manaphy's ability? What if it's a Supporter, or a Pokemon, or and energy, where's your Skyla then? Taking up space in your hand and in your deck.
If you find yourself wishing Skyla could search out energy, add a Energy Search. Its that simple. You should have ample pokemon searching cards so Skyla->pokemon should be easy enough. Skyla actually can search out a supporter (yes you can't use it the turn you Skyla, but if we're both in a supporter drought and I Skyla and you Manaphy, I'm guaranteed to get the supporter I need sooner, especially because your opponent may notice you are in a supporter drought and deny you setup by not KOing Manaphy until you're at a big advantage.
I didn't say it had to be cheating; just that by my definitions of common such a thing is very mathematically improbable to get more than once in a while (would you like me to do the math for this too even though its totally unrelated to manaphy?)
Fisrt off, this is not Yu-Gi-Oh, there is no monsters or graveyard. Second, the Attack say you get three flips, garunteed, so that's three chances to get heads, which is a 33.3% chance of getting two energy and a 66.6% chance of getting one. While yes the 66.6% is the same as attaching to the intended POKEMON, it's not really worth the flip, but it's still worth the free card you get to search for. now, if you have two energy in the discard and you only get one one the first time around, that's great, because it becomes a win-win in your favor, you have another 66.6% chance of getting the other energy, or Manaphy gets KO'd, giving you a free card.
Graveyard=discard pile. So sorry. Mons can be pokemons too. You're right I missed that its 3 flips, that changes things to a whopping 1/39694 as opposed to 1/79388. Well that changed things. And uh how do you end up with 33% of 2 and 66% of 1? That's wrong already, it means you cannot flip 0 heads out of 3. In actuality,you have a 1/8 chance of 3 heads (since we're assuming you won't get 3 water in the discard that counts as 2), 1/8 of 0, and 3/8 or 1 and 3/8 of two. 50% chance that it will end up beneficial to you, and actually less because if you can get Blastoise up t2 then its almost completely pointless.
For my math, I got .21% for getting Manaphy (two copies) in your starting hand, a .388% chance of one water energy, a .476% for getting two, and a .327% of getting an Ultra Ball and Juinper (respectivly), how did I get these numbers, because it's the same numbers I came acrossed with Darkrai/Tornadus, now, these numbers may not seem promising, but it's a lot better than it looks, because all together, getting both energy back from the discard an all, (this took some math) you get a .274% of getting a perfect set up, so every one in four games with starting with Manaphy, now, while that doesn't seem pleasing, it's a 751% chance of getting one energy, so 3 out of 4 games. Now, that's starting with Manaphy which again is only a .21% chance, with 2 copies. So if you start with him, it it's great for you, if you don't, you now have 2 copies of Ultra Ball bait.
Don't use decimals and percents together like that. As it is, you're saying your chance of getting manaphy is .0021, chance of water is .00388, chance of two water is .00476, .00327 for ultra ball or juniper. Secondly, are you using mathematical probability or experimental probability? Most if not all of those numbers do not match anything I could get with a calculator at all, and I hope you realize that saying "I got x card y often once so I'll get it y often again" is not going to be accepted over actual probabilities very often when they differ significantly. Please correct me if you're using mathematical probability because I can't figure out how you got those numbers if you did.
Yes Roserade is better, that's not the point, the point is that getting a free card doesn't hurt, early or late game. You said the late card isn't worth it, a late game free search can help in any game. Also, your arguement to this topic actaully hurts your arguement to opening with Manaphy.
My argument is that Manaphy's attack is too bad and unreliable to make it a reliable starter and the opponent can simply avoid KOing Manaphy until it is convenient for them, not you, therefore making Roserade better if you're using it for its ability.
I for got to mention one thing, what if it's not a trainer you arelooking for with Manaphy's ability? What if it's a Supporter, or a Pokemon, or and energy, where's your Skyla then? Taking up space in your hand and in your deck.
If you find yourself wishing Skyla could search out energy, add a Energy Search. Its that simple. You should have ample pokemon searching cards so Skyla->pokemon should be easy enough. Skyla actually can search out a supporter (yes you can't use it the turn you Skyla, but if we're both in a supporter drought and I Skyla and you Manaphy, I'm guaranteed to get the supporter I need sooner, especially because your opponent may notice you are in a supporter drought and deny you setup by not KOing Manaphy until you're at a big advantage.