Ruling Mr. Mime Bench Barrier

[semurphy444]

With spread decks (Necrozma, Weavile, Koko) becoming more and more popular, I'm thinking that Mr. Mime is going to be a more and more popular card. I'd like some clarification on his ability: Bench Barrier.

"Prevent all damage done to your Benched Pokémon by attacks."

On my last question, someone referenced the Rules Compendium, so that is where I'm starting, in it's MetaRulings:

• Placing damage counters is not the same as doing damage. Things that add to or subtract from damage done do not affect placing counters. (Jan 31, 2008 PUI Rules Team)

Obviously the bench damage from TapuKoko's (Promo) Flying Flip is blocked to all but the active...
"This attack does 20 damage to each of your opponent's Pokémon. (Don't apply Weakness and Resistance for Benched Pokémon.)"

However, does Mr. Mime prevent damage from attacks such as

Gengar's- Sinister Fog- Your opponent's Active Pokémon is now Poisoned. Put 1 damage counter on each of your opponent's Benched Pokémon?

Or

Aegislash's- Painful Sword- Double the number of damage counters on each of your opponent's Pokémon.

Thanks in advance to those who know more than I do and choose to reply!

(My guess is that those 2 examples are NOT blocked, however Necrozma, A.Ninetales; Koko, Weavile, Oh-Ho, etc... any attack that says "does x damage to bench/all" (or if you are able to choose and you pick a benched Pokemon)- those are blocked.

 

[Mariano11887]

You are right. Placing damage counters is not the same as doing damage.
If you have Mr. Mime in play, when the attack says "does X damage to benched Pokémon", that damage to benched Pokémon is blocked. When the attack places damage counters, Mr. Mime's ability has no effect.

 

[FlavorfulPineApl]

Doubling Damage Counters and placing them are not blocked by Mr. Mime. Even Machoke doesn't block Aegislash,

 

[TuxedoBlack]

Doubling Damage Counters and placing them are not blocked by Mr. Mime. Even Machoke doesn't block Aegislash,

Aegislash's Painful Sword attack states "double the number of damage counters on each of your opponent's Pokémon." Needless to say, the act of "doubling the damage counters" is effectuated by the placement of more damage counters. So, why would Machoke's Ability not stop the effect of placing more damage counters onto the opponent's Pokémon if that opponent has Machoke in play? Machoke's Ability, Daunting Pose, states "Prevent all damage done to your benched Pokémon by your opponent's attacks. Your opponent's attacks and Abilities can't put damage counters on your benched Pokémon." Is this a result of their interpretation of "double" vs. "can't place"? Thanks.

 

[superdan51]

The only pokemon that can block those effects is Bronzong FAC. Itll block all damage and effects of attacks. It works really well in stage 2 decks to avoid the Po Town + Miraculous shine play.

 

[FlavorfulPineApl]

Aegislash's Painful Sword attack states "double the number of damage counters on each of your opponent's Pokémon." Needless to say, the act of "doubling the damage counters" is effectuated by the placement of more damage counters. So, why would Machoke's Ability not stop the effect of placing more damage counters onto the opponent's Pokémon if that opponent has Machoke in play? Machoke's Ability, Daunting Pose, states "Prevent all damage done to your benched Pokémon by your opponent's attacks. Your opponent's attacks and Abilities can't put damage counters on your benched Pokémon." Is this a result of their interpretation of "double" vs. "can't place"? Thanks.

You raise an interesting point. I'll have a look at the ruling for that.

 

[Otaku]

There are some things I wish to clarify. I'll be referencing things from the latest, official Rule Book (you can get a digital copy from the Play! Pokémon Rules & Resources page)

Doing damage and placing damage counters aren't apples and oranges, but oranges and citrus fruit. Page 13-14 of the official rule book (I'm using version SM2) lists the steps of attacking: Step C is

"PUT damage counters on your opponent’s Active Pokémon."​

Page 20 breaks it down into more detail, which means it repeats what was said in the less detailed rules about attacking. So now Step F is:

"Apply any effects that happen before damage, then place damage counters, and then do all other effects."​

Step F is broken down into six parts, with Step 6 of Step F being

"For each 10 damage of the final attack, put 1 damage counter on the affected Pokémon. If the damage is 0 or less, don’t put on any damage counters!"​

I know it gets a bit confusing because apart from Bench hits and some more complicated attacks, most attacks do damage based largely or solely on the number printed to the right of the attack name, while direct damage counter placement always comes from the effect text of Abilities, attacks, Trainers, Energy, etc. Doing damage always places damage counters but placing damage counters can happen for reasons other than having done damage.

So, Mr. Mime - either BW: Plasma Freeze 47/116 or XY: BREAKthrough 97/122 (reprinted as Generations52/83) - only block damage counter placement if it occurs in the form of damage, like the 20 damage done by the "Flying Flip" attack of Tapu Koko (SM: Black Star Promos SM30, SM31). What I do not know is if something like "Painful Swords" on Aegislash (XY: BREAKpoint 62/122) should be prevented by the likes of "Daunting Pose" on Machoke (SM: Guardians Rising 64/145) or the "Metal Fortress" Ability of Bronzong (XY: Fates Collide61/124), at least with respect to Benched Pokémon. I believe both would block it, as one must place damage counters on an opponent's Benched Pokémon in order to double the damage counters, and both Abilities protect against such a thing:

Prevent all damage done to your Benched Pokémon by your opponent’s attacks. Your opponent’s attacks and Abilities can’t put damage counters on your Benched Pokémon.

Prevent all effects of your opponent’s attacks, including damage, done to your Benched Pokémon.

 

[FlavorfulPineApl]

There are some things I wish to clarify. I'll be referencing things from the latest, official Rule Book (you can get a digital copy from the Play! Pokémon Rules & Resources page)

Doing damage and placing damage counters aren't apples and oranges, but oranges and citrus fruit. Page 13-14 of the official rule book (I'm using version SM2) lists the steps of attacking: Step C is

"PUT damage counters on your opponent’s Active Pokémon."​

Page 20 breaks it down into more detail, which means it repeats what was said in the less detailed rules about attacking. So now Step F is:

"Apply any effects that happen before damage, then place damage counters, and then do all other effects."​

Step F is broken down into six parts, with Step 6 of Step F being

"For each 10 damage of the final attack, put 1 damage counter on the affected Pokémon. If the
damage is 0 or less, don’t put on any damage counters!"​

I know it gets a bit confusing because apart from Bench hits and some more complicated attacks, most attacks do damage based largely or solely on the number printed to the right of the attack name, while direct damage counter placement always comes from the effect text of Abilities, attacks, Trainers, Energy, etc. Doing damage always places damage counters but placing damage counters can happen for reasons other than having done damage.

So, Mr. Mime - either BW: Plasma Freeze 47/116 or XY: BREAKthrough 97/122 (reprinted as Generations52/83) - only block damage counter placement if it occurs in the form of damage, like the 20 damage done by the "Flying Flip" attack of Tapu Koko (SM: Black Star Promos SM30, SM31). What I do not know is if something like "Painful Swords" on Aegislash (XY: BREAKpoint 62/122) should be prevented by the likes of "Daunting Pose" on Machoke (SM: Guardians Rising 64/145) or the "Metal Fortress" Ability of Bronzong (XY: Fates Collide61/124), at least with respect to Benched Pokémon. I believe both would block it, as one must place damage counters on an opponent's Benched Pokémon in order to double the damage counters, and both Abilities protect against such a thing:

That part about Aegislash is what we want to figure out.

 

[Laurier_Ex]

In a similar fashion:

Played against Necrozma last night and if i recall correctly, i had Magearna on the bench with Rainbow Energy on it.

Magearna -Mystic Heart: Prevent all effects of your opponent's attacks, except damage, done to each of your Pokémon that has any Metal Energy attached to it. (Existing effects are not removed.)

Necrozma -Black Ray Gx: This attack does 100 damage to each of your opponent's Pokémon-GX and Pokémon-EX. This damage isn't affected by Weakness or Resistance.


I had Jolteon on the active. My first impression was that i would not recieve damage on every pokemon with Rainbow or Prism energy on it thanks to Magearna ability. To my surprise, the only one who did not get hit was Jolteon Ex under the Flash Ray effect. This seams obvious when you read it carefully and this can fool anyone.

Jolteon- Flash Ray: During your opponent's next turn, prevent all damage done to this Pokémon by attacks from Basic Pokémon.


To go back to the question, i think that both of those attacks would not be blocked by Mr. Mime but by Magearna since it is placing damage counters and not doing damage in both case.

 

[semurphy444]

I think I'm a sucker for 'secondary effect attack decks' as I play Vika/Crozma/Slash & TapuKoko/Gengar... And awhile back I did play on about the same day- against Magearna-EX...which blocked BOTH Aegislash & Gengar's (Creep Show) attacks. I cried, actually rage conceeded...

I think where we're at is- Bronzong & Machoke is full protection... Mr. Mime is direct damage protection, and Magearna-EX is effect protection.

Thanks for everyone who chipped in with the semantics of attacking and placing counters.

 

[FlavorfulPineApl]

I think I'm a sucker for 'secondary effect attack decks' as I play Vika/Crozma/Slash & TapuKoko/Gengar... And awhile back I did play on about the same day- against Magearna-EX...which blocked BOTH Aegislash & Gengar's (Creep Show) attacks. I cried, actually rage conceeded...

I think where we're at is- Bronzong & Machoke is full protection... Mr. Mime is direct damage protection, and Magearna-EX is effect protection.

Thanks for everyone who chipped in with the semantics of attacking and placing counters.

Yep, Aegislash is an effect so it should be blocked by Magearna. Thats why Necrozma isn't as it is direct damage.Also, Machoke does not block Painful Sword. The effect of "doubling" isn't the same as "adding".

 

[Otaku]

That part about Aegislash is what we want to figure out.

Which is why I started at the beginning; some of the comments posted made me wonder if everyone here really understood how it all works. I do apologize, though; I mistakenly had "place" instead of "put" for the text of Daunting Pose. I've corrected that in my previous post. I also submitted the question via Ask The Rules Team over on Pokegym. While the 'Gym is technically a fansite, it is run by Team Compendium and includes members from the actual, official Rules Team under TPCi.

The effect of "doubling" isn't the same as "adding".

Do you have a previous ruling you can cite? Pokémon is a Japanese TCG; we just play the official English translation. There are many times when I've argued rulings based on semantics, but either the English translation wasn't up to snuff or that went beyond the resolution of the game. If I was a judge and had to rule, as one must put more damage counters on a Benched Pokémon in order to double the amount of damage counters on it, and Daunting Pose blocks that. It would not, however, protect a Benched Pokémon from being Devolved (or other effects that don't involve doing damage or putting damage counters on a Benched Pokémon).

Since I'm not a judge and don't need to make a ruling, though, I think this is unresolved.

 

[FlavorfulPineApl]

Yes, but lets say it was damaged before Daunting Pose. Wouldn't then "doubling" not count as adding? Also, you are correct about the Japanese translations to English not always being the same/enough.

 

[FlavorfulPineApl]

Also, Painful Sword counts as an effect of an attack. Meaning that Machoke should not block it.

 

[Otaku]

Also, Painful Sword counts as an effect of an attack. Meaning that Machoke should not block it.

Except that is the debate; Machoke doesn't block any and all effects of attacks but it does block an opponent's Ability or attack from placing damage counters.

If "doubling" doesn't count as placing damage counters, then Daunting Pose won't protect against Painful Sword.

Addendum: Here is the question I asked and the ruling given by "Ask the Rules Team" section of Pokegym.

In a recent discussion, someone maintained that the "Painful Swords" attack of Aegislash (XY: BREAKpoint 62/122) could bypass the protection offered to Benched Pokémon by the "Daunting Pose" Ability of Machoke (SM: Guardians Rising 64/145). The justification was that the word "double" in "Double the number of damage counters on each of your opponent’s Pokémon." doesn't count as placing damage counters. I find this dubious but failed to find a concrete ruling.

On a related matter, what happens when something like the "Ear Influence" attack of Meowstic (XY: Flashfire 43/106; Generations RC15/RC32) collides with similar protective effects? Is "moving" a damage counter the same as "placing" it, at least with respect to the protection offered by something like Daunting Pose?

1. No. you are placing damage counters. It would be blocked.

2. Per the ruling for Mewtwo EX, moving and placing are seen as the same.
Moving damage counters is two actions; removing the damage counter from one Pokemon and then placing it on another. Either of those actions could be blocked, depending on the wording of an effect, and so if a damage counter could be removed but then it's placement is blocked, the damage counter is just removed from play.

So if the Meowstic player tried to move all of the damage counters on their opponent's benched Pokemon, they would wind up fully healing all of them!
I'll leave it up to a Judge's Chambers discussion to determine how to resolve a player trying to move multiple counters and then trying to change their mind once they discover that they are all being removed from play. That is outside the scope of this forum.