I had just been thinking a bit more about Palkia EX from BreakPoint. It had been initially somewhat hyped due to its first attack which accelerated 2 water energies from the deck while doing 40 damage. It costs 2 water energy to use, but with Max Elixir, it is certainly possible to do turn one. Originally, it was seen as a partner for Golduck Break, Mega Gyarados EX, and Manaphy EX to create a freely retreating, healing beast of a deck, but suffered from its reliance on essentially a stage 2. But I haven't really seen anyone talking about this card/deck since rotation has been announced and I was wondering if it has any viability in the new format. Are its old partners enough to help it become a strong deck in the new format? Or are there any new partners to help it from recent sets? Water is both a good and bad type to be seeing as Volcanion EX is water weak, but Palkia will also suffer against Sceptile which could be big. Any thoughts?
Discussion Palkia EX Viability Post-Rotation
- Thread starter kingcharlesthe6
- Start date
Imo, Volcanion isn't going to be represented near as high as Sceptile, so I am going to go with the assumption that you will have more bad than good matchups.
Palkia is a really cool card, and I was thinking about using it in a Water Toolbox type of deck. However, it doesn't really cut the mustard. Cards like Golduck BREAK are too unreliable because with cards like Garbodor and Hex Maniac in the format, you can't consistently use it's ability. You also lose Seismitoad, which was huge. With a Pokemon like Seismitoad, you were able to hit for damage and control the game. It doesn't have a good Mewtwo matchup and that deck is going to be very good. I feel like Water is going to have to take a backseat for a little while until we get more support.
Palkia is a really cool card, and I was thinking about using it in a Water Toolbox type of deck. However, it doesn't really cut the mustard. Cards like Golduck BREAK are too unreliable because with cards like Garbodor and Hex Maniac in the format, you can't consistently use it's ability. You also lose Seismitoad, which was huge. With a Pokemon like Seismitoad, you were able to hit for damage and control the game. It doesn't have a good Mewtwo matchup and that deck is going to be very good. I feel like Water is going to have to take a backseat for a little while until we get more support.
In a bubble Palkia EX is a really strong card but I don't think anyone has found a way to make it viable for one reason or another. I've been toying around with a Mega Gyarados/Palkia/Huntail build that has been fun to play. It only runs a 2/2 line of M Gyarados since its not really feasible to fully charge up a second one after the first has fallen. The idea is to start with Palkia and start flooding the board with energies in combination with Max Elixirs to make your Huntails deal respectable damage by turn 2/3. The M Gyarados is really only there to hold energy and score major OHKOs, usually on opposing Megas like Sceptile and Rayquaza. I can post my list if you'd like test it yourself, could use the feedback on it anyways.
Going off of that idea, you could also run the obligatory Dragons: Giratina-EX, Hydreigon-EX, and Latios-EX. Latios-EX being especially strong due to the fact that you could power Latios with just a DDE and 2 Water Energy. You could also run stuff like Glaceon/Articuno/Regice for a more Water Toolbox type of feel. Given that DCE also contributes to Huntail's strength. Also, you could run Baby Palkia and Palkia to just deny energy and have Huntail as a power hitter. Some cool options are definitely out there, not sure how good any of them are.
Personally I don't think running special energy is all too viable with Palkia. At least 12 basic water energies seems to be necessary which doesn't really leave room for much else. Here is the list I'm working on.
Pokemon: 16
2-2 Mega Gyarados line
3 Palkia EX
2 Manaphy EX
2 Shaymin EX
2-2 Huntail line
1 Regice
Trainers: 32 (8/20/4)
3 Professor Sycamore
3 N
2 Lysandre
4 VS Seeker
4 Ultra Ball
4 Trainer's Mail
4 Max Elixir
2 Gyarados Spirit Link
2 Energy Switch
4 Rough Seas
Energy: 12
12 Water Energy
Would love room for some Fighting Fury Belts for the Palkias. Also not sure if I should squeeze in Hoopa EX or move towards a 3/2 Ultra/Dive Ball split. I still like M Gyarados since it has nice OHKO potential and at the very least he is good for holding energies for Huntail to do damage. The toolbox setup feels nerfed with Pokémon Ranger in and Toad gone.
Pokemon: 16
2-2 Mega Gyarados line
3 Palkia EX
2 Manaphy EX
2 Shaymin EX
2-2 Huntail line
1 Regice
Trainers: 32 (8/20/4)
3 Professor Sycamore
3 N
2 Lysandre
4 VS Seeker
4 Ultra Ball
4 Trainer's Mail
4 Max Elixir
2 Gyarados Spirit Link
2 Energy Switch
4 Rough Seas
Energy: 12
12 Water Energy
Would love room for some Fighting Fury Belts for the Palkias. Also not sure if I should squeeze in Hoopa EX or move towards a 3/2 Ultra/Dive Ball split. I still like M Gyarados since it has nice OHKO potential and at the very least he is good for holding energies for Huntail to do damage. The toolbox setup feels nerfed with Pokémon Ranger in and Toad gone.
Because the game has a bit more of a steady pace palkia ex will be a bit more viable. The issue with palkia EX is the three charge Pokemon. Comparable to Verzion Genesect, there lays a deep reason on why this combination worked so well. The reason being is that Genesect was not only a three charge, but the format was slow. Trainers Mail and Shaymin EX were not around during the hay day of that combination.
However, Palkia EX can thrive in this environment because the first turn one shot is tougher. The downside is that when the attachment happens from Palkia EX there is no three charge water pokemon that can really hit hard on the next turn. There are four energy charges, but no 3 energy charges in the next format. On top of that, Palkia is two to retreat where Verizion was one. Manaphy needs to be on the bench.
Palkia EX is best paired with Archies, in my opinion, because there a number of stag 2 water pokemon that can take real advantage of that 2 charge. Currently, I've been working on a deck in the new format that flips archies. It's about 70% consistent on first turn. 90 to 95% consistent on second turn. I'm looking to get it to a 80 or 85% consistent on first turn. I would not write archies off in the next format. I'm exploring it a bit. I think it can be can managed. Unfortunately, head games are required to play the deck.
However, Palkia EX can thrive in this environment because the first turn one shot is tougher. The downside is that when the attachment happens from Palkia EX there is no three charge water pokemon that can really hit hard on the next turn. There are four energy charges, but no 3 energy charges in the next format. On top of that, Palkia is two to retreat where Verizion was one. Manaphy needs to be on the bench.
Palkia EX is best paired with Archies, in my opinion, because there a number of stag 2 water pokemon that can take real advantage of that 2 charge. Currently, I've been working on a deck in the new format that flips archies. It's about 70% consistent on first turn. 90 to 95% consistent on second turn. I'm looking to get it to a 80 or 85% consistent on first turn. I would not write archies off in the next format. I'm exploring it a bit. I think it can be can managed. Unfortunately, head games are required to play the deck.
Archies is something I have yet to try with my Palkia lists and it sounds interesting. Pulling it off without battle compressor wont be as easy but I would agree that its worth trying out.
But to sort of make a counter argument to the three charge pokemon issue. That's part of the reason why Max Elixir is in the list. I realize its not always effective but its possible to have a 4 energy attacker charged up and ready to attack on your second turn with only 2 Max Elixirs (ideal scenario I know, but its often feasible especially if you hit more Max Elixirs).
But to sort of make a counter argument to the three charge pokemon issue. That's part of the reason why Max Elixir is in the list. I realize its not always effective but its possible to have a 4 energy attacker charged up and ready to attack on your second turn with only 2 Max Elixirs (ideal scenario I know, but its often feasible especially if you hit more Max Elixirs).
Yes. You are correct that Max Elixir will alleviate that pressure. The unfortunate part about it is that Palkia EX is a two charge in the active and two to retreat. If Manaphy EX does not come out to play, you loose two energy on the retreat for a two hit knockout with the Palkia EX on the bench. The next turn is where the predicament lies. You can turbo charge the next Pokemon, or attack for knockout. The predicament of the card is quite a bit different then Virizons EX. Where Virizon you lost one on the retreat, and did not need another pokemon out on bench to make the deck work, Palkia EX is heavily relying on Manaphy EX to create the loop where by you attack with Palkia EX and mop them up with Manaphy EX, healing your Palkia EX. At the start of this season, tools are a big threat. One fighting fury belt on a pokemon, and Manaphy EX is unable to mop at the 220 mark. A lot of basic pokemon at the 180 and 190 mark will make it harder for the deck to comply with it's natural flow without being able to pull the tools off.
One more thing, in a slower format, Manaphy EX is harder to get out. And if you go the Hoopa route then you create another liability on the bench.
Palkia EX is just a bit trickier of a card to play then Verizion. I believe that is why trainers stay away from him. However if the game was without Shaymin EX and trainers mail, I think Palkia EX would stand out. The reward to get the energy drop off Palkia EX to the bench would far out weigh the risk.
@poke4trade Yeah, in the fast format that we are in where Pokemon can deal 180 turn 1 there isn't really room for a card like Palkia-EX unless a Tier 1 Fire deck emerges, and even then, it is questionable on how good it will be. What made VirGen so strong was how it was the only truly consistent/flexible deck during that time, being able to attach 2 energy to a Virizion and then power up a 200 damage attacker was insane. You had a Lysandre effect, something that was really important to snipe benched Pokemon, and you also weren't effected by Special Conditions in a time where Laser Bank was near staple. Palkia-EX on the other hand doesn't really have any strength, in this format. Besides being a basic, which is inherently strong, it doesn't deal a lot of damage, it only accelerate energy from deck, and there is nothing great to power up for Water. With Seismitoad in Water Box, you could Quaking Punch and then the next turn be able to hit for 130, and if you had a Fight Fury Belt on, you would KO most Pokemon. So until we either get a better main Pokemon, like Seismitoad, or get a strong hitter, traditional Waterbox probably won't be a thing.
I have been testing out Primal Kyogre lists and I feel like that has some potential, but currently, not so much. That deck basically plays like Water Box, but instead of Seismitoad you focus on a beefy Primal Kyogre, which has its merit, but still isn't that good.
I have been testing out Primal Kyogre lists and I feel like that has some potential, but currently, not so much. That deck basically plays like Water Box, but instead of Seismitoad you focus on a beefy Primal Kyogre, which has its merit, but still isn't that good.
Let me know if this is just me being dumb, but is Palkia Vileplume with Forest of Giant Plants instead of Rough Seas possible? I know the healing is important, and Vileplume isn't as good without AZ, but could slowing down the opponent with T1 trainer lock be enough to make a speed Palkia list with something like Kyogre, Gyarados, or Huntail? Again, I'm not so sure since I mainly theory-mon about possible decks rather than play as much anymore, but just an idea.
Maybe, but in that case Carbink BREAK/Zygarde/Vileplume is better due to it being able to play under Item Lock better.
Regarding strong water hitters, Auroros EX (XY102) has some potential. It has an annoying odd turns restriction on its attacks (though that can be dealt with with ranger easily enough,) and with an FFB it hits for 170, which ain't 1/2 bad. Hard to
Get it to the 180/220 sweet spots though.
Get it to the 180/220 sweet spots though.
As for a few other possible ideas, I have a few.
The first is M Swampert EX Promo which does 160 for 2 water and 2 colorless if you mill the top 3 cards of both players decks. Maybe this could work paired with Palkia to set up Swampert without need for special energy, then just run a heavy count of recovery cards to shuffle energies/Pokemon back into the deck. The main pros to this card are that it isn't reliant on any special energy if Palkia and Max Elixir are used and can be powered up in one turn, not to mention that the milling effect will put a lot of pressure on the opponent, losing 3 cards per turn. But at the same time, there are much better milling strategies out there like Houndoom EX which does it for only 1 energy and only discards from your opponent with the only downside being that it only mills 2 instead of 3. On top of that, again you are stuck at that 160 damage output whereas you would much rather be dropping at least 180 to take knockouts. So maybe Palkia Swampert Mill could become a thing, but more than likely its just me trying to stretch an idea that really isn't meant to see the light of day. There's also the added benefit of regular Swampert EX's first attack, which could maybe work in a deck similar to the old SpeedQuaza by running nothing but water energies, Swampert, Palkia, and Max Elixir, to focus on powering up Swampert quickly and dealing heavy damage. But in that scenario, running Palkia becomes more of a hindrance than it does help, so maybe not a good partner for Palkia.
Another option may be M Blastoise EX, who can actually hit that nice 180 mark with his attack at the cost of discarding 2 water energies. Again, the list would center around using Palkia with Max Elixir to try to get 4 energies on Blastoise in one turn and then begin smashing. It would have to run a heavier count of recovery cards (mainly super rod to ensure the energy is in the deck to be accelerated with Palkia/Max Elixir), but it does hit a decent damage number. But it suffers from that same problem of having to run Manaphy to give free retreat due to Blastoise also being a fat retreater, and the regular Blastoise isn't particularly stellar, so I'm not entirely confident it would be the strongest deck ever. But hey, it could be worth a look.
The last card I saw was Avalugg. And this is another one of those ideas like the Swampert Mill deck I mentioned previously where I'm not sure how to run the deck optimally. His second attack can mill up to 9 cards if you can manage to mill 3 energies from yourself. So similarly to SpeedQuaza, you want to run a heavy energy count to try to mill as fast as possible. And milling anywhere from 3 to 9 cards from your opponent's deck per turn could be completely devastating against something like M Rayquaza which goes through it's deck so quickly with Shaymins. But there are a lot of problems with it. First of all, there's the same issue as with the Swampert Mill strategy I mentioned earlier in which you have to decide if you really need to run Palkia to get the energy, or if you're better not sacrificing those slots and instead relying on Max Elixir to get the 3 water on Avalugg. Then you also need to keep it going. You have to mill multiple times to deck out your opponent, and at Avalugg's 120 HP (160 with FFB) it isn't exactly taking hits well, so you will need to constantly be able to power one up quickly to answer the KO. Of course it does have some pros, such as being only a stage 1, not being an EX, being searchable with Heavy Ball, and having optional energy denial in its first attack. And to overcome the issue of having to get multiple stage 1's out, you could run Mew to use his attack since its a basic instead. So this is another card I'm not so sure about as a partner for Palkia, or whether it is better as its own standalone budget deck, or if it just straight up is not good enough for the format.
The first is M Swampert EX Promo which does 160 for 2 water and 2 colorless if you mill the top 3 cards of both players decks. Maybe this could work paired with Palkia to set up Swampert without need for special energy, then just run a heavy count of recovery cards to shuffle energies/Pokemon back into the deck. The main pros to this card are that it isn't reliant on any special energy if Palkia and Max Elixir are used and can be powered up in one turn, not to mention that the milling effect will put a lot of pressure on the opponent, losing 3 cards per turn. But at the same time, there are much better milling strategies out there like Houndoom EX which does it for only 1 energy and only discards from your opponent with the only downside being that it only mills 2 instead of 3. On top of that, again you are stuck at that 160 damage output whereas you would much rather be dropping at least 180 to take knockouts. So maybe Palkia Swampert Mill could become a thing, but more than likely its just me trying to stretch an idea that really isn't meant to see the light of day. There's also the added benefit of regular Swampert EX's first attack, which could maybe work in a deck similar to the old SpeedQuaza by running nothing but water energies, Swampert, Palkia, and Max Elixir, to focus on powering up Swampert quickly and dealing heavy damage. But in that scenario, running Palkia becomes more of a hindrance than it does help, so maybe not a good partner for Palkia.
Another option may be M Blastoise EX, who can actually hit that nice 180 mark with his attack at the cost of discarding 2 water energies. Again, the list would center around using Palkia with Max Elixir to try to get 4 energies on Blastoise in one turn and then begin smashing. It would have to run a heavier count of recovery cards (mainly super rod to ensure the energy is in the deck to be accelerated with Palkia/Max Elixir), but it does hit a decent damage number. But it suffers from that same problem of having to run Manaphy to give free retreat due to Blastoise also being a fat retreater, and the regular Blastoise isn't particularly stellar, so I'm not entirely confident it would be the strongest deck ever. But hey, it could be worth a look.
The last card I saw was Avalugg. And this is another one of those ideas like the Swampert Mill deck I mentioned previously where I'm not sure how to run the deck optimally. His second attack can mill up to 9 cards if you can manage to mill 3 energies from yourself. So similarly to SpeedQuaza, you want to run a heavy energy count to try to mill as fast as possible. And milling anywhere from 3 to 9 cards from your opponent's deck per turn could be completely devastating against something like M Rayquaza which goes through it's deck so quickly with Shaymins. But there are a lot of problems with it. First of all, there's the same issue as with the Swampert Mill strategy I mentioned earlier in which you have to decide if you really need to run Palkia to get the energy, or if you're better not sacrificing those slots and instead relying on Max Elixir to get the 3 water on Avalugg. Then you also need to keep it going. You have to mill multiple times to deck out your opponent, and at Avalugg's 120 HP (160 with FFB) it isn't exactly taking hits well, so you will need to constantly be able to power one up quickly to answer the KO. Of course it does have some pros, such as being only a stage 1, not being an EX, being searchable with Heavy Ball, and having optional energy denial in its first attack. And to overcome the issue of having to get multiple stage 1's out, you could run Mew to use his attack since its a basic instead. So this is another card I'm not so sure about as a partner for Palkia, or whether it is better as its own standalone budget deck, or if it just straight up is not good enough for the format.