Ruling Penalty Question

poleskitty

poleskitty

Ewe's not Faat, Ewe's Flaafy
Member
OK, this one's a little personnel. My son was handed a game loss yesterday in the first round of the final in juniors (since we were playing single elimination for the first round of top cut -- he was eliminated from the tourney).

This is what I understand the situation.

> Both players set up, my son forgot to put his prize cards down.
> He went second, played Holon mentor, searched for 3 basics, shuffled his deck
> At this point his opponent called for a judge and pointed out there were no prize cards dealt

The judge determined that this represented a case of the game being irrevokably broken and escalated the penalty from Prize Card to Game Loss. As further point, he had been issued no other cautions or penalties for the tourney. I am struggling to see how at this point the game was irrevokably broken, the three basics are shuffled back into the deck, prize cards are dealt, prize card penalty is assessed and the game resumes. Clearly the lesson is don't forget to put down your prizes, but (even leaving aside 1.1 of the penalty guidelines for juniors) was this a harsh call.

Thx for your input
 
sorry about that :( i also got a penalty, because of my sleeves. but back on topic, i think normally, it should only have been the opponent drawing a prize card or two. of course, im no judge, so i dont know
 
I would like to know where this tourny was. Because first round of top cut is NEVER single elimination. That pently was also uncalled for. That happened in t8 over here in masters and it wasn't a game lose. Its both players responability for game state.
 
That's a BS call. Report the call, the judge who made the call, and the circumstances to POP.

www.go-pokemon.com/op
 
yeah i would report the call because the game is about fairness and it was a mistake (not a way of cheating) someone needs to call the judge out on that call... good luck
 
hmm thats really werid from what i have heard if you use a supporter that can search you are going to get a game loss because the cards you picked could have been in your prizes. But if the opponent wasent being sportsmenlike for not remeinding thts pretty low so if i were you report it and report the player.
 
That is some seriously shoddy judging. I agree with Krucifer, definitely send something to POP. They can't change what happened, but they take those reports very seriously and deal with the PTOs and staff as appropriate.

First off, top cut is single elimination, but it's also match play -- best 2 out of 3 games. Your message is pretty vague on that point, but if they were playing just one game for the first round of top cut, that is a serious violation of tournament protocol. There is a well-defined format that Premier Events are to be run with, and PTOs are not allowed to deviate from it. If that's the case, then you definitely need to send a report to POP.

Second, they better have given at least a warning to the opponent. It is both player's responsibility to ensure that the game is played correctly. That includes getting things set up properly. Truth is, this sounds to me like the other player engaging in gamesmanship in order to get himself awarded to win. He waited until after a deck search to point out the lack of prizes, probably knowing that it would be a Game Loss. In those cases, judges are absolutely allowed to give that player the game loss for being unsportsmanlike and trying to cheat the system. There was a whole epic-length thread on this exact topic on the POP forums, and the Penalty Guidelines were revised mid-season to account for this. It's nice to know that your tournament staff isn't keeping up with official notices at all.

Third, what the [EXPLETIVE DELETED] are those judges doing, not watching setup in a TOP CUT. You're right to say that it's the player's responsibility, but it's also the judge's duty to be proactive and point out things like that before they become problems -- don't give out Prize or Game Losses when you can give out a Caution or Warning earlier, before something really bad happens. At St. Louis Regionals, we walked the tables during Swiss and checked every setup before starting each round. Guess how many no prize card penalties we gave out? ZERO. Now, you're bound to miss a few during Swiss since there are just so many games going on, so we did very good on this point. But there's no excuse during TOP CUT, where there should be a judge for every 1-2 games, doing nothing but sitting there and watching. He absolutely should have pointed out the lack of prizes before the game ever started.

This whole thing sounds like some bad judging all around.
 
CK and others thanks for the response.

IMO I'm going to let the rest of the issues particularly (the gamemanship issue) drop. I've seen enough Juniors this year with a win at all costs attitude this year (I would guess they get that from parents), to attribute that to this match. This would lead me to the why bother playing line of thinking and I am not going to go there.

But, fundamentally is the game state irreparably broken given the order of events presented -- it would seem like it is not. Unless somewhere there is a very specific indication that playing a searching trainer and shuffling your deck without prize cards down demands the escalated penalty. Clarification on this was actually what I was seeking, but I appreciate the other comments as well.
 
poleskitty said:
But, fundamentally is the game state irreparably broken given the order of events presented
Click to expand...

Yes.

Suppose it's the second turn of the game and you Celio's for your only Level X. You find it, one card from the top of the deck. Then you look to the left -- oops, no prizes! You've retrieved a card that should never have been available to you. That's why the game state is considered irreparable at that point.
 
Again CK thanks for the reply

Chairman Kaga said:
Suppose it's the second turn of the game and you Celio's for your only Level X. You find it, one card from the top of the deck. Then you look to the left -- oops, no prizes! You've retrieved a card that should never have been available to you. That's why the game state is considered irreparable at that point.
Click to expand...

However, taking your example I thought that one of the over riding principles in penalty assessment was the idea of "rewindability", unless the game play error was intended to lead to some advantage for the offending player. In your example, you are absolutely right the LvlX could have been in the prizes. But at this point the game state is not irreparable. We can rewind, the LvlX goes back into the deck, the deck is shuffled, prize cards dealt, what ever penalty appropriate is assessed and then the offending player searches his/her deck and the game continues. It is probably a more irreparable game state when the first card is drawn from the deck (again that card would have properly been in the prizes) as at this point the opponent has no knowledge of what card was actually drawn unlike the search example you provided.
 
It is very well rewindable, but that doesn't mean you should. It's still a severe game play error with significant advantage gained.

In all these no-prize situations, it is the role of the Head Judge to determine just how much advantage was gained by not having prizes out. That, in turn, determines the course of action -- either continuing the game with a Warning/Prize Penalty and setting prizes off the bottom of the deck, or terminating the game right there with a Game Loss.
 
I guess like much it comes down to judge discretion. Thanks CK I was told it was a predetermined penalty. I guess I'll suck it up and go on, its too good a game to give up on. The easiest remedy -- always remember to deal your prizes.
 
poleskitty said:
I guess like much it comes down to judge discretion. Thanks CK I was told it was a predetermined penalty. I guess I'll suck it up and go on, its too good a game to give up on. The easiest remedy -- always remember to deal your prizes.
Click to expand...

Uh huh. And that's why I asked what your Regionals judges were smoking. There's no reason for that penalty to happen in a top cut situation, unless the judge is simply staring off into space -- or isn't there at all. I'm not sure which is worse.
 
The reason he got a game loss is because the game state was unfixible.

I'm assuming that when playing holon mentor he shuffled his deck afterward. When doing this you change the order of the deck making it impossible to tell what the prizes where supposed to be and since the pokemon could not be put back in the right place either.

So, because one of those pokemon he got could have been a prize and because any other card in that deck could have been a prize the only thing they can do is assign a game loss.
 
If you dont put out your prizes and you haven't searched your deck, its a prize penalty. If you have searched your deck, its a game loss.
 
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