Discussion Pikachu & Zekrom - Gimmicky or Meta-Defining?

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DorilMagefont

Aspiring Trainer
Member
I know Pikarom has been dominant in the Japanese meta, but is everyone thinking the same will be true once Team Up is tournament legal internationally? I've been playing a deck on the online game and it feels inconsistent/gimmicky to me: either I set up a T1/T2 Full Blitz, or I lose the game. Additionally, it seems amazing vs GX decks (4 prize cards in 1 turn) but it feels lackluster vs non-GX decks (if they can deal with your Pikarom, you can only grab 2 prize cards in 1 turn maximum).

Is this just standard variance in Pokemon TCG? Or do others feel the same way.
 
Meta-defining primarily means that it's the deck that either people play, or people play a deck that is intended to beat. It's hard to say if it is that at this point, but it certainly seems the case - we'll see after Oceania, though. Whether it becomes dominant over the long term or not depends on whether it is possible to play a deck that both consistently beats PZ _and_ can beat other decks reasonably frequently. Think Celebi-Venusaur; that deck handles P&Z handily, but it's unclear that it can beat other decks as consistently for it to be played sufficiently itself.

That said, I think you're selling it short. It's not super-consistent, true, but if it works it wins most matchups - even C&V has a hard time against it when it sets up turn 2. Many one-prize decks are quite beatable with it, as it takes them too long to be able to deal 240 damage; it takes prizes consistently on turns 2, 3, 3, 4, 5, 6, and many one prize decks just can't beat two P&Zs that quickly (not to mention that it can turn to Tapu Koko or Zeraora to take some of those, requiring the opposing deck to beat three GXs to win without repeated guzmas).

We'll see if that inconsistency ultimately is a problem, or not. I don't have a solid sense of whether it's going to be or not, nor really does anyone else I suspect - it takes having 300-400 people in a room together play it out, with 50-100 of them playing P&Z and hundreds of others playing other successful decks and counters, to really find out.
 
snoopy369 said:
Meta-defining primarily means that it's the deck that either people play, or people play a deck that is intended to beat. It's hard to say if it is that at this point, but it certainly seems the case - we'll see after Oceania, though. Whether it becomes dominant over the long term or not depends on whether it is possible to play a deck that both consistently beats PZ _and_ can beat other decks reasonably frequently. Think Celebi-Venusaur; that deck handles P&Z handily, but it's unclear that it can beat other decks as consistently for it to be played sufficiently itself.

That said, I think you're selling it short. It's not super-consistent, true, but if it works it wins most matchups - even C&V has a hard time against it when it sets up turn 2. Many one-prize decks are quite beatable with it, as it takes them too long to be able to deal 240 damage; it takes prizes consistently on turns 2, 3, 3, 4, 5, 6, and many one prize decks just can't beat two P&Zs that quickly (not to mention that it can turn to Tapu Koko or Zeraora to take some of those, requiring the opposing deck to beat three GXs to win without repeated guzmas).

We'll see if that inconsistency ultimately is a problem, or not. I don't have a solid sense of whether it's going to be or not, nor really does anyone else I suspect - it takes having 300-400 people in a room together play it out, with 50-100 of them playing P&Z and hundreds of others playing other successful decks and counters, to really find out.
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This man says it best Pikarom is very very good but can still be beat.
 
I see -- thanks for both your replies! I guess for my part I just don't really "enjoy" this style of play. I feel like I've refined my deck enough that it's just total RNG whether I draw the tools for T1/T2 Full Blitz and that just "doesn't make me feel good" so to speak. I'm definitely not the most cutting edge deckbuilder (looking forward to see what techs the real pros come up with). Honestly it might just be the inherent variance of Pokemon.
 
DorilMagefont said:
I see -- thanks for both your replies! I guess for my part I just don't really "enjoy" this style of play. I feel like I've refined my deck enough that it's just total RNG whether I draw the tools for T1/T2 Full Blitz and that just "doesn't make me feel good" so to speak. I'm definitely not the most cutting edge deckbuilder (looking forward to see what techs the real pros come up with). Honestly it might just be the inherent variance of Pokemon.
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I'm also a fan of consistency over rolling the dice. I'm playing PikaZek right now mostly to try out the mechanic, and because when it works it feels really good; but I definitely have a lot more fun with more consistent decks. Don't feel like you have to play it - it's definitely not the sole BDIF in my opinion; Malamar (Ultra or not) is very good also, and ZoroRoc is at least pretty decent, and several other decks are playable right now. I haven't decided what I'm playing for Collinsville yet, and may not until the day of, but it's nice that there is quite a bit of variation at the moment possible, even if it seems like it's heading one direction at the moment.
 
I'm seeing enough online that I substantially revamped my list to be able to deal with it. Whether it stays that way is anyone's guess but right now I absolutely view it a significant part of the meta, and with all the tools electric has to get started its current meta share feels justified to me.
 
I think Gionvanni’s Exile has potential to counter PikaRom in Zoroark decks.
In facts, a big problem in the matchup is that the game ends with the GX attack on the Tapu Lele GX on the bench that you use every game with an elm's lecture engine and almost 40% of the time with a Lillie engine. It's a 4 prize cards attack so you only have to boost your first attack twice with electro power to take first two prizes.
It's like using parallel city on your bench but it's slower because it's a supporter. However, this is not a problem when you have a self-build draw engine provided by Zoroark GX.
 
Matux said:
I think Gionvanni’s Exile has potential to counter PikaRom in Zoroark decks.
In facts, a big problem in the matchup is that the game ends with the GX attack on the Tapu Lele GX on the bench that you use every game with an elm's lecture engine and almost 40% of the time with a Lillie engine. It's a 4 prize cards attack so you only have to boost your first attack twice with electro power to take first two prizes.
It's like using parallel city on your bench but it's slower because it's a supporter. However, this is not a problem when you have a self-build draw engine provided by Zoroark GX.
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Nanu is already supposed to fill that niche better and it sees zero play in Zoroark decks so I don't think Gio is going to see play with Zoroark.
 
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Not really ... Nanu can't replace Tapu Lele GX because it works only on a basic dark pokemon
 
Oh you're right ! :eek: So I guess this tech card is not a thing currently to revert the matchup :/
 
I think it's just a matter of speed. Zoro can't afford to take a turn of a supporter that doesn't help accelerate. P&Z as it stands can win by turn 5 or 6, and Zoro needs to keep aggressively using supporters for other purposes. Nanu also leaves a lower HP Pokémon out there, so it's unclear if it really helps all _that_ much (okay, so P&Z takes 3 instead of 4 prizes that turn, still a huge turn for them). Maybe if/when we get a dark TTGX we'll see that be more useful (as Nanu can bring the TTGX out).
 
snoopy369 said:
Nanu also leaves a lower HP Pokémon out there, so it's unclear if it really helps all _that_ much (okay, so P&Z takes 3 instead of 4 prizes that turn, still a huge turn for them). Maybe if/when we get a dark TTGX we'll see that be more useful (as Nanu can bring the TTGX out).
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Actually, it doesn't - number of turns in play also remain on the new Pokemon so you can evolve into a Zoroark right away. In a vacuum, this makes Nanu sound decent, but as you said, Nanu is still too slow and this move is effectively a wasted turn for Zoroark.
 
uncleyuri said:
Looks like it is not a gimmick. Did great over the weekend with a few top 8 spots.
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Agreed. I think this is really interesting, because playing as Pikarom, there are times when I feel like I'm a wannabie Zapdos/Jirachi deck (bad draws and/or it's better to get a Zapdos online and start taking prize cards immediately), but other times when I'm glad I'm Pikarom (when they're running a GX deck and I can actually Tag Bolt for 4 Prizes). If I understand the Zapdos/Jirachi deck correctly, I think Tapu Koko-GX is how they deal with Pikarom (Tapu Thunder GX destroys a 6 energy Pikarom and can be played immediately with 3 energy on the field), but with 1 copy, I wonder if it would get prized and then Zapdos/Jirachi is just screwed (The #1 list only ran 1 copy). That said, I wonder if even the mind-game factor (Maybe they have Tapu Koko-GX and I can't put 6 energy on my Pikarom) is enough to discourage it.
 
tried the deck out, maybe i didn't had the best least but i felt always the pressure of a deck that or goes all out or dies in the beach. its always seem like is all or nothing.
 
So, Nanu ended up with a pretty useful play after all, but not for PikaRom (where you'd need it like turn 3 or 4, too early): for ZapdosJirachi, getting the Alolan Grimer back out after it was KO'ed using up one of the ZJ's Guzmas. Nanu back in for Lele (or whatever), and you can instantly evolve it to Alolan Muk and have your ability lock set up.

As for PikaRom: definitely meta defining. 5/9 of my opponents played PikaRom.
 
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