Discussion Regarding Cheating in the PTCG

Serperior

~
Advanced Member
Member
Today's events is one of (if not) the biggest step Pokémon has taken against cheating.

Just curious if you or anyone else you know have experienced playing against someone that has cheated and what action was taken against that individual. What penalties do you think cheaters should face? Should they receive temporary or lifetime bans?

Take Long's situation - what do you think should happen to him?

I'd love to hear your thoughts.
 
I have experienced a situation where my opponent was adamant that Special Metal Energy was indeed considered [M] Energy whilst in the discard pile (which is not true), adamantly making excuses even after I pointed out the clause on the card that suggested different. It is possible (and probably likely) that they were being deliberately ignorant so that their strategy didn't go "suddenly" defunct, although I suspect pride was also a motive, as I was still about 15, and they were probably 20 or so. I couldn't call upon a judge either, because it wasn't a sanctioned tournament, and the "judges" (who weren't actually official) also would participate in the tournament. I guess you could consider that cheating.

Stuff happens and people make mistakes, and penalties should reflect that. I think a temporary ban of up to a year would be appropriate, and perhaps some mark on their POP profile (what do they call that now?) to note that they have a cheating record. When you break the law while driving, your license is revoked for some short period, and the offense goes on your record. That model seems to be effective in those situations, and it should be just as effective in the case of cheaters in a TCG tournament.
 
"Cheating" comes in a variety of forms in the Pokémon TCG, and while all cheating is wrong, I think it is worthwhile drawing distinctions between things like
  • Cheating with forethought
  • Desperation (self-delusion?) cheating
  • Opportunistic cheating
If you don't consider cheating to require intent, then you'd have unintentional cheating as well, like when I utterly failed to grasp that weaving was cheating.

...

Every year, I just wonder more and more how I made such a mistake, but I did. @_@ I think it boiled down to a failure to understand that the deck was supposed to be random, which does not mean an even distribution, and does allow for things like clumping. ^^' Thankfully, it was caught at League, shortly after I'd started doing it, and while flabbergasted, the person catching me did realize I was totally missing that it was cheating.
 
He should be banned for some time. Oh, and the security had to escort him out, twice. With all the prize money he earned, likely from cheating past events, since he's been accused of cheating for a while. It was pretty funny to watch though, and I was making jokes about him with Squeaky, Yellow Swellow, and other well known players.
 
I've had an experience with a very well known player around the Maryland area. He was a senior at the time. He was constantly looking at his discard pile and kept on making this weird look at me. Then I noticed him dropping a card from the discard pile on top of his face down hand. I didn't call him out the first time but when he tried to do it again a second time, I stared at him and gave him a wide smile as if I'm saying "I know what you are doing and I'm watching you this time!" So he stopped what he was doing and we continued with our game.
 
As a long time judge, I have had some experience in dealing with cheating. The biggest thing is proving that actions were deliberately done and not by accident. I know some Pokemon used in VGC were altered by unofficial means to have perfect stats or the correct moveset without having to breed. It was really hard that I couldn't do anything because I couldn't prove it since they would pass the hack checks.

I believe a first offense of cheating should result in a ban of 1 year. A second offense results in a permanent ban.
 
As a long time judge, I have had some experience in dealing with cheating. The biggest thing is proving that actions were deliberately done and not by accident. I know some Pokemon used in VGC were altered by unofficial means to have perfect stats or the correct moveset without having to breed. It was really hard that I couldn't do anything because I couldn't prove it since they would pass the hack checks.

I believe a first offense of cheating should result in a ban of 1 year. A second offense results in a permanent ban.
Where does cheating count, is it ever, league, or only for large tournaments? If someone cheated playing against their friends while playing casually, would they get banned?
 
Severity of punishment should depend on several things and should almost always be taken on a case by case basis.

First, can you prove intent? In Long’s case you can almost guarantee he intended to hide a card in his lap, but then again how can we be absolutely sure? The card could’ve easily slipped out of his hand and landed in his lap without him knowing about it. Is that the case? Probably not, but it’s a possibility. Most of what is labeled “cheating” isn’t actually cheating but more of a “penalty” like holding in football. Mistakenly activating an ability under Garb lock or benching a 4th Pokemon under paralell city, those kinds of things. Should they be penalized in-game? Yes and probably more severely than the are currently, but they should almost never result in outside-game penalties, unless a specific case warrants it.

Also, is there a history, both at the current tournament and/or at previous tournaments? A player who has never once been flagged for any kind of infraction and is found with a card or cards in his/her lap should definitely not recieve the same punishment as someone who has been flagged multiple times over a long period of time for a variety of reasons.

Next, what sort of competitive setting are we talking about? In MTG, there are REL levels, which we don’t have in PTCG, mainly for consistency’s sake. But I think something should be taken into account about the notoriety of the event. If someone is caught blatantly cheating (marking cards, moving cards from discard pile to hand, cards hidden in lap, egregious stuff) at a prerelease, the penalty should not be as severe as it would be at a Regionals or Internationals. BUT, these flags should be cataloged in a database so if a player does something apparently small at World’s but it’s discovered they have a number of serious flags at lower level events, the baseline punishment should immediately be increased.

In this particular instance, we have a player with some previous allegations looming, an egregious action, and all of it happening at a high level event. I’d say a one-year ban would be a good place to start. At the very least, he should be shut down for the rest of this season.

I’d be very hard pressed to ever dole out a lifetime ban, just because I’m a naive optimist. But I could get behind a 3 strikes and you’re out mentality. Let’s say Michael gets banned for the rest of the season. That’s level 1. Next would be a 1-2 year ban. That’d be Level 2. Level 3 would be 2-4 years. After that, it’d be so obvious the player would be beyond rehabilitation and therefore deserves a lifetime ban.

Lastly, we as a community need to agree on 2 things. First, we must find a range of acceptable in-game actions that could almost never be construed as cheating. Quick example, before every game I play, both Pokémon and MTG, I do a quick 10 pile shuffle. It takes me 20-30 seconds and it performs 2 basic actions. I reassure myself that my deck contains a legal number of cards and I also show my opponent that my deck is legal as well. I also never peel cards off the top of my desk and put them directly into my hand. I deal out the exact number onto the table, count them so both my opponent and I are sure I’m drawing the correct number of cards. There are a lot of little ways you can make your play more transparent and not enough players do this.

Next, let’s use the example of the high-level player dropping cards from his discard onto his hand. NEVER let your opponent have a freebie. Even during a friendly at your locals. Call a judge or whoever you consider the judge. Always. Because if you don’t call them out publicly, sure they prb won’t try to cheat against you anymore, but they will try against someone else, and that’s just as much your fault as it is theirs at that point because your silence empowers them.
 
Where does cheating count, is it ever, league, or only for large tournaments? If someone cheated playing against their friends while playing casually, would they get banned?

Tournaments are when penalties are issued and even then the most a judge can do is DQ the player from the event. Bans are handled by TPCI. League and casual play if I see something that is very shady I'll let the player know with an explanation of why so they don't repeat it in official tournaments.

If someone is behaving so badly they need to be sent home from league, then I'll report the incident to TPCI and ask for their input, but I think I've only ever had to do that once or twice during an eight year period.
 
Severity of punishment should depend on several things and should almost always be taken on a case by case basis.

First, can you prove intent? In Long’s case you can almost guarantee he intended to hide a card in his lap, but then again how can we be absolutely sure? The card could’ve easily slipped out of his hand and landed in his lap without him knowing about it. Is that the case? Probably not, but it’s a possibility. Most of what is labeled “cheating” isn’t actually cheating but more of a “penalty” like holding in football. Mistakenly activating an ability under Garb lock or benching a 4th Pokemon under paralell city, those kinds of things. Should they be penalized in-game? Yes and probably more severely than the are currently, but they should almost never result in outside-game penalties, unless a specific case warrants it.

Also, is there a history, both at the current tournament and/or at previous tournaments? A player who has never once been flagged for any kind of infraction and is found with a card or cards in his/her lap should definitely not recieve the same punishment as someone who has been flagged multiple times over a long period of time for a variety of reasons.

Next, what sort of competitive setting are we talking about? In MTG, there are REL levels, which we don’t have in PTCG, mainly for consistency’s sake. But I think something should be taken into account about the notoriety of the event. If someone is caught blatantly cheating (marking cards, moving cards from discard pile to hand, cards hidden in lap, egregious stuff) at a prerelease, the penalty should not be as severe as it would be at a Regionals or Internationals. BUT, these flags should be cataloged in a database so if a player does something apparently small at World’s but it’s discovered they have a number of serious flags at lower level events, the baseline punishment should immediately be increased.

In this particular instance, we have a player with some previous allegations looming, an egregious action, and all of it happening at a high level event. I’d say a one-year ban would be a good place to start. At the very least, he should be shut down for the rest of this season.

I’d be very hard pressed to ever dole out a lifetime ban, just because I’m a naive optimist. But I could get behind a 3 strikes and you’re out mentality. Let’s say Michael gets banned for the rest of the season. That’s level 1. Next would be a 1-2 year ban. That’d be Level 2. Level 3 would be 2-4 years. After that, it’d be so obvious the player would be beyond rehabilitation and therefore deserves a lifetime ban.

Lastly, we as a community need to agree on 2 things. First, we must find a range of acceptable in-game actions that could almost never be construed as cheating. Quick example, before every game I play, both Pokémon and MTG, I do a quick 10 pile shuffle. It takes me 20-30 seconds and it performs 2 basic actions. I reassure myself that my deck contains a legal number of cards and I also show my opponent that my deck is legal as well. I also never peel cards off the top of my desk and put them directly into my hand. I deal out the exact number onto the table, count them so both my opponent and I are sure I’m drawing the correct number of cards. There are a lot of little ways you can make your play more transparent and not enough players do this.

Next, let’s use the example of the high-level player dropping cards from his discard onto his hand. NEVER let your opponent have a freebie. Even during a friendly at your locals. Call a judge or whoever you consider the judge. Always. Because if you don’t call them out publicly, sure they prb won’t try to cheat against you anymore, but they will try against someone else, and that’s just as much your fault as it is theirs at that point because your silence empowers them.

This was not Long's first time caught cheating. There have been at least two other documented occurrences, once during the North American International (which was caught on stream), and again at the recent European International. And these are just the times that he got caught. How many other times has he cheated and gotten away with it? How much prize money has he practically stolen from other players because of his cheating? Imagine putting the time and money into traveling to play in a big tournament and losing to someone who cheated. I feel like he's been given more than enough leeway in the past for his actions. If all he gets is a one year ban or a ban for the rest of the season, it's going to send the wrong message. As someone in HeyFonte pointed out, there have been players banned for doing less in the past.
 
In my humble opinion, a punishment must match the crime, along with conditions. This isn't a federal court of law, so there are no lawyers or plea settlements involved so there seems limited opportunity for Michael Long to prove himself. That being said, I would say that he, or his parents, be given a fine equal to the amount of prize money he was given + a certain amount, say a few thousand dollars. Simply banning him isn't enough as Pokemon is not necessarily evergreen. His reputation may have suffered, but he can easily move onto a different card game and cheat there. Force him to pay -- if that is a viable course of action.
 
In my humble opinion, a punishment must match the crime, along with conditions. This isn't a federal court of law, so there are no lawyers or plea settlements involved so there seems limited opportunity for Michael Long to prove himself. That being said, I would say that he, or his parents, be given a fine equal to the amount of prize money he was given + a certain amount, say a few thousand dollars. Simply banning him isn't enough as Pokemon is not necessarily evergreen. His reputation may have suffered, but he can easily move onto a different card game and cheat there. Force him to pay -- if that is a viable course of action.

No clue what the actual amount is, but someone calculated that Long has won somewhere in the ballpark of $40,000 playing at major tournaments. I wonder how many of those tournaments were played clean by him.
 
Yeah, it was hella funny

Bro this is hysterical can you recreate the scene for me

No clue what the actual amount is, but someone calculated that Long has won somewhere in the ballpark of $40,000 playing at major tournaments. I wonder how many of those tournaments were played clean by him.

That's the scary part of this discussion. Maybe he's been hiding Greninja BREAKs up his bum this entire time and no one has caught him til now. Who knows how much money he's robbed other players from honestly earning. The thought freaks me out.
 
Every year, I just wonder more and more how I made such a mistake, but I did. @_@ I think it boiled down to a failure to understand that the deck was supposed to be random, which does not mean an even distribution, and does allow for things like clumping. ^^' Thankfully, it was caught at League, shortly after I'd started doing it, and while flabbergasted, the person catching me did realize I was totally missing that it was cheating.

haha wow... I didn't even know this! Hasn't been picked up at my league either. o_O
 
Here's some advice on cheating:
Don't do it.
Now, whenever I'm playing and I use Sycamore, I drop a card from my hand extremely obviously and say "Sycamore." Sometimes I drop my whole hand.
It's funny.
 
This was not Long's first time caught cheating. There have been at least two other documented occurrences, once during the North American International (which was caught on stream), and again at the recent European International.

If that’s the case, we shouldn’t really be asking ourselves how badly he should be punished but why he was allowed by tpci to set foot into the venue in the first place. That’s just crazy.

Also, just because I haven’t seen it anywhere else, does anybody have links of the previous cheating instances?
 
If that’s the case, we shouldn’t really be asking ourselves how badly he should be punished but why he was allowed by tpci to set foot into the venue in the first place. That’s just crazy.

Also, just because I haven’t seen it anywhere else, does anybody have links of the previous cheating instances?

Now I wont make you double link- I'll just copy & past the other person's analysis.

"I'll be taking this recording from the NAIC Senior finals as an example (at 13:49), but I'm asking as a general rule what a player is / isn't allowed to do as a general rule when searching their deck.

There's been quite a lot of players talking about this "incident". At this speed it seems hard to say there was an active cheating (an elaborate cut stacking). But I still feel several points needs to be addressed (the 3 questions at the bottom of my post, especially the clear de-clumping that is happening), and how it could have been possible to draw into the Staryu.

There, we can see Michael Long playing Ultra Ball, putting Rescue Stretcher (likely to de-clump his deck) and Staryu (?) to the bottom of his deck, then grab a Greninja. He then plays Dive Ball, grabs the Froakie. Note that there is only one Staryu in the deck, the other one being prized.
After this, he shuffles his deck. You can slow down the video at ×0.25 to watch the entire shuffle process, I'm not sure this is the right place to talk about this and whether this was intentional or not. He then self-cuts, then rearrange his deck into a clean pile, and may be keeping the cards at the bottom of his deck tilted. He then offers his opponent to cut the deck, with the bottom cards still tilted. Seems hard to do voluntarily at that speed to be honest. The cut happens to be done just above the tilted cards. He then Sycamore into both Staryu and Rescue Stretcher, both next to each other at the top of his deck. He likely puts the Rescue Stretcher at the bottom to de-clump (but is it needed if your goal is to have a sufficiently randomized deck?), but I have no explanation for the Staryu. He doesn't even consider it as an option, doesn't even think about grabbing it with the following Dive Ball. Putting one aside to count when you only play two Staryu seems unlikely."

 
@josie0001 - there are players that have been guilty of shady/unsportsmanlike play that walk into these venues like you and I. I believe there is audio evidence of Gibson Archer-Tang admitting to cheating and he made T8 for Fort Wayne (if my memory serves me correctly - he definitely made Day 2 and was the first or second seed). Daniel Altavilla is sponsored by Ultra Pro and he deliberately tried to N bait his opponent. It's a question competitive players have been asking for years - how far is too far before TPCi actually does something against this kind of play? Magic has very little tolerance for improper behavior outside of venue walls, and has recently suspended players for harassment. What will it take for TPCi to follow suit in order to develop a more inclusive/fair/honest community?

The popular discussion surrounding Long at this point is between a temporary or permanent ban. With the evidence from NAIC and what clearly happened in Memphis, do you think this is enough for a permanent ban from the game?

Others argue that he is young. Will he learn from his mistakes, mature, and play fairly after a certain amount of time away from the game?
 
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