Discussion Return of Greninja?

[Draskk]

I was thinking about it and here is why I think it could come back into the spotlight:

-Two Water Shurikens cleanly one-shots Trashalanche Garb
-Garb is slowing things down
-Greninja gained alot with Guardians Rising
-Volcanion has gained alot and will be gaining more from Burning Shadows meaning Deciduplume will go down in play and Volcanion will be hit for weakness by Greninja

So, do you guys think Greninja will make a comeback? I think if there ever was a time for it it's now.

 

[Fayld]

I think it is making a comeback for sure. Choice Band + Field Blower just made a powerful deck even more powerful. I also think we are going to see less Deciplume with this set and I think Greninja might be one of the very few decks that handles Quad Sylveon pretty easily. Overall, this set was pretty solid for the frogs!

 

[Nyora]

Garb also has Garb in it so if you don't get your field blowers... your screwed. Choice Band is the main reason this got stronger, and I feel like that plus Field Blower makes it a good deck to play, it just probably won't win you a lot of tournaments. I feel like Garbodor (Garbotoxin), Decidueye and just huge HP Pokémon are gonna stop this from winning. I think it is coming back but still ain't too good. :/

 

[Draskk]

Garb also has Garb in it so if you don't get your field blowers... your screwed. Choice Band is the main reason this got stronger, and I feel like that plus Field Blower makes it a good deck to play, it just probably won't win you a lot of tournaments. I feel like Garbodor (Garbotoxin), Decidueye and just huge HP Pokémon are gonna stop this from winning. I think it is coming back but still ain't too good. :/

Yes, but they have one Garb and you have two Field Blowers. Also, I don't think it will ever be a big player (it never really was) I just feel like it may see a comeback because of Choice Band like you said, and thanks to the slower meta we'll have post-rotation. I do, however, agree that huge hp 'mons like Decidueye (Decidueye especially as it oneshots you because of weakness) and Solgaleo mess with it a bit. Although, Kukui+2 Shurikens+Moonlight Slash for 80+Choice Band equals 250, so there is a possibility of killing things like Solgaleo in one shot, it just won't happen all the time. Anyways, here's a Greninja list I put together:

Pokemon(17):

3x Greninja BREAK
3x Greninja
4x Frogadier
3x Froakie
2x Starmie
2x Staryu

Trainers (35):

4x Sycamore
2x N
2x Lysandre
1x Professor Kukui
1x Fisherman
4x VS Seeker
3x Trainer's Mail
4x Dive Ball
2x Ultra Ball
1x Professor's Letter
2x Field Blower
4x Choice Band
2x Brooklet Hill
3x Rough Seas

Energy (8):

2x Splash Energy
6x Basic Water Energy

I honestly have no clue if this list is good or not, but I think it could be. We have Starmie to gurantee our two Water Shurikens every turn, we have Brooklet hill to help get everyone out, and we have Rough Seas for later on. Another thought I had was the old standby Talonflame but I'm not quite sure how to fit in four.

 

[Fayld]

I think you need a flare grunt in there. That alone can really help in the Decidueye match given how few energies they run.

 

[crystal_pidgeot]

The problem I think Greninja faces is it does much better against 2 Prize Pokemon. I don't think your opponent is going to care much that it take two GWS to KO a one prize attacker they can just get back the next turn. The trade can work well but you can do this every other turn, assuming you can recover the energy. They also need to have access to Field Blower and most Greninja decks don't run ways to find cards.

 

[CESit]

I think Greninja right now is super solid. Choice band and fieldblower help math a ton plus it gains 2 favorable mus: Sylveon and Garb. In order to play in the current format, most modern ninja lists are dropping silent lab entirely and are using 0-2 stadiums, with brooklet hill being the stadium of choice if they run a stadium to give another froakie out without using an item. Passive stadiums are much worse than they used to be, thanks to field blower and meta changes

However the decline in silent lab also means giratina promo is a very solid anti-ninja card in the case where ninja gains popularity. If you suspect ninja will see decent amount of play, giratina promo can singlehandedly nearly win you the mu with GUR builds of the deck

 

[AuraJackle]

Sylveon has a pretty good matchup against greninja I don't understand why people think it's positive. Litteraly they just plea gx your 2 greninja's that were on the bench and because they came from Frogadiers getting them back down is nearly impossible. And if that's not enough they will team skull and hex you while doing 110 a turn

 

[Draskk]

Sylveon has a pretty good matchup against greninja I don't understand why people think it's positive. Litteraly they just plea gx your 2 greninja's that were on the bench and because they came from Frogadiers getting them back down is nearly impossible. And if that's not enough they will team skull and hex you while doing 110 a turn

Oh god I didn't think of that. And if they Ned after that would basically be gg. Yeah I think I'll stick with my Vespiquen deck thank you very much o.o

 

[CESit]

Sylveon has a pretty good matchup against greninja I don't understand why people think it's positive. Litteraly they just plea gx your 2 greninja's that were on the bench and because they came from Frogadiers getting them back down is nearly impossible. And if that's not enough they will team skull and hex you while doing 110 a turn

It really isn't that easy tbh. Ok so you put 2 frogadier lines without froakies back into hand - Ninja can still ohko you - 110 off choice band and 2 energy off shurikens off the 2 lines you didn't get rid of. If you test the mu vs a decent to higher ninja player, you'll see its actually a super tough mu for Sylveon - this is modern ninja builds, not the ancient builds

 

[Draskk]

It really isn't that easy tbh. Ok so you put 2 frogadier lines without froakies back into hand - Ninja can still ohko you - 110 off choice band and 2 energy off shurikens off the 2 lines you didn't get rid of. If you test the mu vs a decent to higher ninja player, you'll see its actually a super tough mu for Sylveon - this is modern ninja builds, not the ancient builds

Except that they Lysandre something useless and Plea back both your BREAKs, which sets you back like four turns. Plus, if they N you, you have to find the Greninjas again.

 

[Greninja13]

Here's the thing though Greninja is 'making' a comeback. A lot of master players have been talking about different decklists you can use and I think that for this rotation PRC-GUR it will be more difficult then the next rotation, it still is slowly coming back into the meta game.

 

[Greninja13]

I have a league cup this weekend and I'm going to possibly try it out there, depending on how that goes I'll know whether or not Greninja is coming back back. I highly suggest watching Seattle Regional and Madison Regional to see what kind of GUR decks people are playing and what is the top deck. The only problem really with Greninja is making sure you have the right techs going into your match. I am working on a decklist with all these articles and videos that have been coming out, and I'll post as soon as I'm done. Remember Simple yet Deadly is Greninja's strategy.

 

[novato]

I'm a returning player. so. I never saw Greninja get out of the game. You can still win several tournaments in standard or expanded, not as many as before.
Why do not you see it in standard tournaments? Obviously by decidueye/plume hype.

If you think it's going to be off the top deck I would not bet.

What does the new set bring to me? Not much, aqua patch or field blower I find very slow, and would use bursting balloons all day instead of choice band, although I need two turns to get 250. Well, okay, I want to use Rescue Stretcher, instead of super rod, returning a Pokemon to the hand is very tempting.

Now I do not understand why Wally left all current lists? Is not this a card that helps you against the basic GX and Eeveeolutions of the first turn?

 

[Fayld]

Except that they Lysandre something useless and Plea back both your BREAKs, which sets you back like four turns. Plus, if they N you, you have to find the Greninjas again.

They do that yeah, but most Greninja lists I have seen are running at least 3 N (usually 4) so it isn't as easy to just pluck whatever you need against a Greninja deck. Also, they are just putting the ninjas back into your hand. Most times I see at least 4 Greninjas in various states of being built. I don't think getting placed into your hand would be much of a deal breaker at all. The decks where I see this being an issue are the ones with heavy energy requirements. The decks that don't need much energy to hit like a truck are going to be all sorts of difficult for Sylveon.

 

[Draskk]

They do that yeah, but most Greninja lists I have seen are running at least 3 N (usually 4) so it isn't as easy to just pluck whatever you need against a Greninja deck. Also, they are just putting the ninjas back into your hand. Most times I see at least 4 Greninjas in various states of being built. I don't think getting placed into your hand would be much of a deal breaker at all. The decks where I see this being an issue are the ones with heavy energy requirements. The decks that don't need much energy to hit like a truck are going to be all sorts of difficult for Sylveon.

That is true, they can't Plea all of your Greninjas, so as long as you got a water duplicates in you should be fine.

 

[Fayld]

I'm a returning player. so. I never saw Greninja get out of the game. You can still win several tournaments in standard or expanded, not as many as before.
Why do not you see it in standard tournaments? Obviously by decidueye/plume hype.

If you think it's going to be off the top deck I would not bet.

What does the new set bring to me? Not much, aqua patch or field blower I find very slow, and would use bursting balloons all day instead of choice band, although I need two turns to get 250. Well, okay, I want to use Rescue Stretcher, instead of super rod, returning a Pokemon to the hand is very tempting.

Now I do not understand why Wally left all current lists? Is not this a card that helps you against the basic GX and Eeveeolutions of the first turn?

Wally isn't in most lists because there are faster ways to get most staged pokemon set up. Usually via Rare Candy for Stage 2's or just laying down as many basics as possible and drawing into the stage 1 GX the next turn (I won't get into Forest of Giant Plants decks). Ultimately, the reason Wally isn't played is because there isn't really a deck where having a S1 set up T1 really brings much benefit. I mean, I guess you could make a case for a T1 ability lock Garbodor with a tool being pretty disruptive, but that would also completely destroy your ability to set up anything else.

As for Greninja, Choice Band >>>> Bursting Balloons. There are a *lot* of decks now that don't even try to do damage early (look up Quad Lapras or Quad Sylveon). There are also a number of decks where that bursting balloon damage actually helps them because they are running Tauros GX and all you are doing is getting that bad boy ready to take prizes. Finally, with a deck like Deciplume, they don't have to attack you to do 60 damage per turn. They just ping away at you while you sit there with your balloons. Choice Band is a clear upgrade for this deck because it allows Greninja to hit some huge numbers to take OHKOs without requiring your opponent to attack into you. There are a lot of pokemon that sit at 210 hit points which is just out of range for 2 Shurikens + the 80 damage attack. With Choice Band, you can toss down an energy and hit that 210 damage even without placing the energy back into your hand (example, say you didn't want to return a splash energy). Choice Band also allows you to OHKO things like M Rayquaza because the damage output for Greninja without a Kukui tops out at 230 with a Choice Band rather than 200 without it. That's pretty huge.

Field Blower is an obvious addition to Greninja as well (in probably a 2 count actually) because ability lock Garbodor still sees play and Field Blower is really the only way to deal with that card. It also allows you to discard pesky stadiums.

Finally, I actually use a 1-1 split of Rescue Stretcher and Super Rod. There are times that energy needs to get back into my deck and I don't want to use my supporter to make it happen.

I don't think Aqua Patch has much (if any) place in a Greninja deck. There are already a ton of struggles getting set up consistently without adding that additional piece of fluff to get in the way.

 

[AuraJackle]

That is true, they can't Plea all of your Greninjas, so as long as you got a water duplicates in you should be fine.

I don't think I've ever scene a greninja player with a board state of 4 greninja breaks out its just not likely at all especially against a deck that's gonna try and delinquent and N you every time a greninja deck attacks with talonflame

 

[Draskk]

I don't think I've ever scene a greninja player with a board state of 4 greninja breaks out its just not likely at all

Yes, but I bet you've seen a Greninja player with 2 BREAKs and 2 Frogadiers. What I mean is they use Plea on two BREAKS, they go back into your hand. Then, you evolve the two Frogadiers into Greninjas, one of which takes a hit from Sylveon. If you run Max Potion, Max Potion it, drop an Energy, then go BREAK and take down their Sylveon.

 

[AuraJackle]

Yes, but I bet you've seen a Greninja player with 2 BREAKs and 2 Frogadiers. What I mean is they use Plea on two BREAKS, they go back into your hand. Then, you evolve the two Frogadiers into Greninjas, one of which takes a hit from Sylveon. If you run Max Potion, Max Potion it, drop an Energy, then go BREAK and take down their Sylveon.

Still gotta worry about hex and skull grunt I'm not saying sylveon auto wins but I'd say sylveon has the upper hand.