Returning Player - Rogue Deck Viability and Changes in Meta

[Trap]

Hello all! I used to be an avid fan of the card game and of this forum. However, about 6 months ago I lost interest when rumors began running around that BCR was rotating out. It would have severly injured by beloved Keldeo-Blastoise deck, and I was getting tired of stuff rotating every time I finally assembled a deck.

However, after having discovered TCG One, I'd like to once again jump into the fray. But I'm not sure where to begin. So my primary questions are:

1) How are stage 2s faring? I know they were somewhat bad when I stopped playing due to the prevalence of quick EX-based decks. Are they any better?

2) How has the speed of the game changed overall? Has it become significantly faster? Or has it eased up a bit on the decks that take a couple turns to get going?

3) How do rogue decks fit into the meta? Are they viable at all, or are the established archetypes the only real usable decks? I always loved the deckbuilding part the best, so I'd love to hear that it's possible to create your own deck with some degree of success.

4) Piggybacking onto #3, if rogues are viable - what are some mechanics that are possible to build a deck around, and what should I keep my distance from? That might be a bit of a silly or unanswerable question, but I may as well ask.

5) Finally, what are some popular archetypes nowadays?

I apologize in advance for the broadness and potential noobiness of these questions. I really appreciate any and all help on this front.

 

[Otaku]

Hello all! I used to be an avid fan of the card game and of this forum. However, about 6 months ago I lost interest when rumors began running around that BCR was rotating out. It would have severly injured by beloved Keldeo-Blastoise deck, and I was getting tired of stuff rotating every time I finally assembled a deck.

I'll answer, but some of what you say is puzzling. I think we should clear up some of the misconceptions that lead you to quit the first time; if any are remotely accurate then it would behoove us to make sure you won't have a reason to leave again anytime soon. Also, not trying to be a jerk by pointing out you got some bad info, but if I'm not careful, it may sound like it (just let me know if that happens). >.>

The Blastoise of which you speak was released three times: first in BW: Boundaries Crossed, then in BW: Plasma Storm, and finally one last time in BW: Plasma Blast. All three of these rotated out of Standard play back back in 2015, but were still legal for Expanded play. The Pokémon TCG currently has two Constructed Formats used for sanctioned tournament play: Expanded (Black & White and later releases) and Standard (XY: Kalos Starter Set and later releases, but most just treat it as XY and later because the XY: Kalos Starter Set is a mini-set sold as three beginner decks). This September 1st, Expanded will remain "BW-On" (so you can still use your Blastoise there) while Standard becomes XY: Primal Clash and later releases (or "PRC-On"). It may also interest you to know that a new set called XY: Evolutions is slated for release in about three months and is supposed to be another set inspired by earlier releases like the Base Set. There is already an update of the original Charizard revealed, so you might get another Blastoise to enjoy soon.

If you don't like rotation, there is something known as the Legacy Format. It consists of the HeartGold/SoulSilver series, Call of Legends, and Black & White series of releases. No new sets are added and so no older sets rotate out. It is exclusive to the Pokémon Trading Card Game Online (PTCGO) though perhaps TCG One does it as well. The PTCGO is like TCG One except:

• You have to work to earn the cards...
  
• ...because it is official and thus you're still supporting the game.

Free to play, but easier if you do wish to spend money on product IRL, as said product (booster packs, theme decks, etc.) will come with redemption codes you can use to get virtual product in the PTCGO. I haven't spent any money on the PTCGO, only time, and I've got several solid decks. The only difficult to obtain card missing from my Blastoise deck there is the one that is even harder to get IRL: Tropical Beach.

1) How are stage 2s faring? I know they were somewhat bad when I stopped playing due to the prevalence of quick EX-based decks. Are they any better?

The game's pacing is still very quick; this puts decks that manually Evolve at a disadvantage. So just as it has been for the last several years, only the best combination of speed and power tend to have a chance. That means some Stage 2 Pokémon are worthwhile, some are not. We have Archie's Ace in the Hole and Maxie's Hidden Ball Trick to help Water and Fighting Stage 2 Pokémon (respectively) hit the field easier, while Forest of Giant Plants helps those which can Evolve from a Grass Type. Some Stage 2 Pokémon have other tricks to make it work out.

You may have left before BREAK Evolutions were released; take an Evolution line and extend it one point past where it normally goes; so the BREAK Evolution of a Basic is like a Stage 1, of a Stage 1 is like a Stage 2, and of a Stage 2 is like a Stage 3. For the purpose of game mechanics (like cards that reference a specific Stage) they are however BREAK Evolutions and not those Stages; the BREAK Evolution of a Stage 1 is harder to play than an actual Stage 2 because shortcuts like Rare Candy don't work with it. Yet the BREAK Evolution of a Stage 1 (Trevenant BREAK) and the BREAK Evolution of a Stage 2 (Greninja BREAK) have met with competitive success, though they aren't the current top deck.

2) How has the speed of the game changed overall? Has it become significantly faster? Or has it eased up a bit on the decks that take a couple turns to get going?

The only thing keeping this from being the fastest format we have seen is the first turn rule that keeps the player who goes first from attacking. This may change some with the rotation as we lose a few cards (Battle Compressor) that helped keep that speed up. Still, even if that slows things down, it won't be by much.

3) How do rogue decks fit into the meta? Are they viable at all, or are the established archetypes the only real usable decks? I always loved the deckbuilding part the best, so I'd love to hear that it's possible to create your own deck with some degree of success.

Building your own deck has been hard since pretty much forever. Most of the time someone else comes up with the same idea as you, and in fact that is the job of Pokémon R&D to make sure nothing is too good. I'll resist making a joke about that. If that sounds snooty... I spent some time as a deck snob where I frowned upon people using something they didn't create themselves. Because it was my excuse for not optimizing my own decks with cards I didn't have, or getting better at the game. ^^'

All is not lost though; rogue decks do still exist. Just realize most of the time they spring up in multiple locations as someone somewhere figures it out. Then either one of those people or someone else does well in the next of the Championship Series and the rogue becomes an archetype. Some only like to apply the label "rogue" retroactively; if you build a deck that can't perform well reliably, is that really a feat worth naming? Because obtaining successful lists is getting easier all the time, you can still flex your deck building muscle; deck lists are not evergreen. Even ignoring new releases, if you take a list that won a tournament handily last month, expect everyone and their brother to be prepared for that list at the next event. You'll need to tweak (or sometimes radically alter) it to remain competitive.

4) Piggybacking onto #3, if rogues are viable - what are some mechanics that are possible to build a deck around, and what should I keep my distance from? That might be a bit of a silly or unanswerable question, but I may as well ask.

Not silly, but currently unanswerable. We are heading into the World Championships in... two weeks? Then September 1st is the yearly rotation for Standard play. The thing about rogue decks is if you can see it coming, you're either very skilled or it isn't really a rogue deck. Decks tend to gravitate towards hitting fast, hard, and reliably, being slow and methodical while locking down your opponent's options, or a combination of both. You know... the basic split in TCG deck design. XD

5) Finally, what are some popular archetypes nowadays?

Night March is a deck built around Pokémon with the "Night March" attack or capable of copying it. Said attack does more damage for each Pokémon in your discard pile that has said Night March attack printed on it. When all goes well the deck can fill its discard with enough Night March Pokémon to score a OHKO on its first turn, and only a bad start won't have them locked and loaded by the player's second or third turn. Night March Pokémon are glass cannons; their HP scores are abysmally low (30 or 60 for the ones you actually attack with). The deck is sensitive to damage spread, Item lock, and Ability lock. It also runs very little Energy, and almost all Special Energy, so Energy disruption/control can also give it a hard time. Still, one of the best decks in the format.

Vespiquen (XY: Ancient Origins 10/98) has an attack for [CC] that does 20 damage plus 10 more for each Pokémon in your discard pile. Like Night March it fills its discard pile rapidly, allowing it to being taking OHKOs almost immediately. Some builds include Forest of Giant Plants so it does not have to wait to Evolve. It has almost all the same strengths and weaknesses as Night March decks, but with the specifics or degrees changed; different literal Weakness on your attackers, more HP but still fragile, needs more Pokémon to hit the same damage amount but every Pokémon counts towards the total, etc. Often combined with either Night March (where it may honestly be the current best deck in the format) or Vileplume (XY: Ancient Orings 3/98) for a vicious Item lock deck that is still fast and hard hitting. The Vileplume version will get Vileplume into play on that player's first turn unless the opponent is very lucky.

Trevenant BREAK decks use Trevenant BREAK and Trevenant (XY 55/146). BREAK Evolutions retain the Ability, attacks, Weakness, Resistance, and Retreat Cost of the Pokémon from which they BREAK Evolve, so Trevenant BREAK gets to lock down Abilities while Active when used in this manner. It also has an inexpensive spread attack. Trevenant (but at least not Trevenant BREAK) is intended to hit the field first turn. It will usually run additional disruption elements like Energy discarding cards. Its Darkness Weakness is a big danger (more on that in a bit) and there are anti-spread cards that almost totally mitigate its best attacks.

Darkrai-EX (XY: BREAKpoint 74/122, 118/122) can hit harder the more Darkness Energy is in play. Giratina-EX (XY: Ancient Origins 57/98, 93/98) has an Ability that protects it from Mega Evolutions, while its attack prevents your opponent from playing Stadium, Special Energy, or Pokémon Tools from hand (and does solid damage). Thanks to Double Dragon Energy, you can use Giratina-EX to get a lot of [D] Energy in play quickly (Double Dragon Energy provides two units of Energy that count as all Energy Types). Giratina-EX is also used with Seismitoad-EX, for a deck more focused on locks. I am embarrassed to say, but I cannot remember if all three are used together or not.

Water Toolbox is a deck built around Basic Water Type attackers that all have different specializations. This is your typical Toolbox deck so as long as it gets the correct Pokémon at the correct time, it can counter many popular strategies. Of course, there are counters for its counters as well.

I've just described the various decks that managed to place in the Top 8 of the Masters Division at the 2016 U.S. National Championships. You can see the lists for these decks on the official Pokémon website here. Other recent, well performing decks are:

Greninja BREAK decks are slow starting, but are also the most budget friendly deck due to not using Shaymin-EX (XY: Roaring Skies 77/108, 106/108). Seriously, every other deck on here will want at least two copies of that thing. Greninja BREAK avoids running any Pokémon-EX and uses Greninja (XY: BREAKpoint 40/122) and Greninja (XY 41/146). Usually the XY: BREAKpoint Greninja is favored because it has a free Retreat Cost plus an attack that shuts down Abilities on your opponent's turn (read the cards and this will make more sense). Greninja from XY is still handy for extra damage counter placement. The deck is known for being down three, four, even five Prizes but then getting its setup and wrecking the opponent in another two or three turns for the win.

Mega Man, which consists of M Manectric-EX and various Basic attackers that it fuels; a Toolbox deck.

Zygarde-EX/Carbink BREAK, a Fighting Type deck. Just look through Fighting Type support and you'll get a good idea of how it works. Medicham (XY: Primal Clash 81/160) works in a similar manner, just using a small Stage 1 that can attack twice in a turn instead of a big, Basic Pokémon-EX.

Blackbox decks are a Darkness Tool Box deck, usually focused on Yveltal (XY 78/146 plus multiple re-releases), Yveltal-EX, Zoroark (XY: BREAKthrough 91/162), and sometimes Zoroark BREAK. Some versions will use Maxie's Hidden Ball Trick and some useful Fighting Types like Gallade (XY: BREAKthrough 84/162) instead, which isn't actually a Blackbox deck but I didn't feel like listing it separately.

Bronzong (XY: Phantom Forces 61/119) can attach basic Metal Energy from the discard pile to your Benched Pokémon. It is used to back up other Metal Type attackers, most notably Genesect-EX (XY: Fates Collide 64/124, 120/124). Bronzong isn't picky though and versions backing Giratina-EX (same version as above) and Tyrantrum-EX have done well before, as well as M Rayquaza-EX (XY: Roaring Skies 76/108, 105/108). Said M Rayquaza-EX also is used on its own, relying more heavily on Double Colorless Energy and Mega Turbo, but still working by dropping a Sky Field and rapidly filling its Bench to OHKO basically everything in the game.

Jolteon-EX and Vaporeaon-EX have attacks that are quite good at walling against an unprepared opponent. Often they are worked into something else, but some decks focus on them.

Seismitoad-EX/Crobat uses Crobat (XY: Phantom Forces 33/119) to offset the low damage output of Seismitoad-EX and its Quaking Punch (which locks down Items on your opponent's turn).

Aromatisse (XY 93/146) can move Fairy Type Energy around. There are a couple variants built around this but I'm not sure which ones are popular right now. It isn't overly strong, but it is a functional deck.

Entei (XY: Ancient Origins 15/98) had a successful deck where it paired up with Charizard-EX (XY: Flashfire 12/106); it was basically a fast, raw power deck though it could pull some defensive tricks. Hasn't been successful for a while, but you still run into them every now and again.

Wailord-EX had a stall/mill deck that also had some success, but I don't think it has been as good lately.

Anyway, out of time. Sorry some of these are rather... messy.

 

[Trap]

I'll answer, but some of what you say is puzzling. I think we should clear up some of the misconceptions that lead you to quit the first time; if any are remotely accurate then it would behoove us to make sure you won't have a reason to leave again anytime soon. Also, not trying to be a jerk by pointing out you got some bad info, but if I'm not careful, it may sound like it (just let me know if that happens). >.>

The Blastoise of which you speak was released three times: first in BW: Boundaries Crossed, then in BW: Plasma Storm, and finally one last time in BW: Plasma Blast. All three of these rotated out of Standard play back back in 2015, but were still legal for Expanded play. The Pokémon TCG currently has two Constructed Formats used for sanctioned tournament play: Expanded (Black & White and later releases) and Standard (XY: Kalos Starter Set and later releases, but most just treat it as XY and later because the XY: Kalos Starter Set is a mini-set sold as three beginner decks). This September 1st, Expanded will remain "BW-On" (so you can still use your Blastoise there) while Standard becomes XY: Primal Clash and later releases (or "PRC-On"). It may also interest you to know that a new set called XY: Evolutions is slated for release in about three months and is supposed to be another set inspired by earlier releases like the Base Set. There is already an update of the original Charizard revealed, so you might get another Blastoise to enjoy soon.

If you don't like rotation, there is something known as the Legacy Format. It consists of the HeartGold/SoulSilver series, Call of Legends, and Black & White series of releases. No new sets are added and so no older sets rotate out. It is exclusive to the Pokémon Trading Card Game Online (PTCGO) though perhaps TCG One does it as well. The PTCGO is like TCG One except:

• You have to work to earn the cards...
  
• ...because it is official and thus you're still supporting the game.

Free to play, but easier if you do wish to spend money on product IRL, as said product (booster packs, theme decks, etc.) will come with redemption codes you can use to get virtual product in the PTCGO. I haven't spent any money on the PTCGO, only time, and I've got several solid decks. The only difficult to obtain card missing from my Blastoise deck there is the one that is even harder to get IRL: Tropical Beach.



The game's pacing is still very quick; this puts decks that manually Evolve at a disadvantage. So just as it has been for the last several years, only the best combination of speed and power tend to have a chance. That means some Stage 2 Pokémon are worthwhile, some are not. We have Archie's Ace in the Hole and Maxie's Hidden Ball Trick to help Water and Fighting Stage 2 Pokémon (respectively) hit the field easier, while Forest of Giant Plants helps those which can Evolve from a Grass Type. Some Stage 2 Pokémon have other tricks to make it work out.

You may have left before BREAK Evolutions were released; take an Evolution line and extend it one point past where it normally goes; so the BREAK Evolution of a Basic is like a Stage 1, of a Stage 1 is like a Stage 2, and of a Stage 2 is like a Stage 3. For the purpose of game mechanics (like cards that reference a specific Stage) they are however BREAK Evolutions and not those Stages; the BREAK Evolution of a Stage 1 is harder to play than an actual Stage 2 because shortcuts like Rare Candy don't work with it. Yet the BREAK Evolution of a Stage 1 (Trevenant BREAK) and the BREAK Evolution of a Stage 2 (Greninja BREAK) have met with competitive success, though they aren't the current top deck.



The only thing keeping this from being the fastest format we have seen is the first turn rule that keeps the player who goes first from attacking. This may change some with the rotation as we lose a few cards (Battle Compressor) that helped keep that speed up. Still, even if that slows things down, it won't be by much.



Building your own deck has been hard since pretty much forever. Most of the time someone else comes up with the same idea as you, and in fact that is the job of Pokémon R&D to make sure nothing is too good. I'll resist making a joke about that. If that sounds snooty... I spent some time as a deck snob where I frowned upon people using something they didn't create themselves. Because it was my excuse for not optimizing my own decks with cards I didn't have, or getting better at the game. ^^'

All is not lost though; rogue decks do still exist. Just realize most of the time they spring up in multiple locations as someone somewhere figures it out. Then either one of those people or someone else does well in the next of the Championship Series and the rogue becomes an archetype. Some only like to apply the label "rogue" retroactively; if you build a deck that can't perform well reliably, is that really a feat worth naming? Because obtaining successful lists is getting easier all the time, you can still flex your deck building muscle; deck lists are not evergreen. Even ignoring new releases, if you take a list that won a tournament handily last month, expect everyone and their brother to be prepared for that list at the next event. You'll need to tweak (or sometimes radically alter) it to remain competitive.



Not silly, but currently unanswerable. We are heading into the World Championships in... two weeks? Then September 1st is the yearly rotation for Standard play. The thing about rogue decks is if you can see it coming, you're either very skilled or it isn't really a rogue deck. Decks tend to gravitate towards hitting fast, hard, and reliably, being slow and methodical while locking down your opponent's options, or a combination of both. You know... the basic split in TCG deck design. XD



Night March is a deck built around Pokémon with the "Night March" attack or capable of copying it. Said attack does more damage for each Pokémon in your discard pile that has said Night March attack printed on it. When all goes well the deck can fill its discard with enough Night March Pokémon to score a OHKO on its first turn, and only a bad start won't have them locked and loaded by the player's second or third turn. Night March Pokémon are glass cannons; their HP scores are abysmally low (30 or 60 for the ones you actually attack with). The deck is sensitive to damage spread, Item lock, and Ability lock. It also runs very little Energy, and almost all Special Energy, so Energy disruption/control can also give it a hard time. Still, one of the best decks in the format.

Vespiquen (XY: Ancient Origins 10/98) has an attack for [CC] that does 20 damage plus 10 more for each Pokémon in your discard pile. Like Night March it fills its discard pile rapidly, allowing it to being taking OHKOs almost immediately. Some builds include Forest of Giant Plants so it does not have to wait to Evolve. It has almost all the same strengths and weaknesses as Night March decks, but with the specifics or degrees changed; different literal Weakness on your attackers, more HP but still fragile, needs more Pokémon to hit the same damage amount but every Pokémon counts towards the total, etc. Often combined with either Night March (where it may honestly be the current best deck in the format) or Vileplume (XY: Ancient Orings 3/98) for a vicious Item lock deck that is still fast and hard hitting. The Vileplume version will get Vileplume into play on that player's first turn unless the opponent is very lucky.

Trevenant BREAK decks use Trevenant BREAK and Trevenant (XY 55/146). BREAK Evolutions retain the Ability, attacks, Weakness, Resistance, and Retreat Cost of the Pokémon from which they BREAK Evolve, so Trevenant BREAK gets to lock down Abilities while Active when used in this manner. It also has an inexpensive spread attack. Trevenant (but at least not Trevenant BREAK) is intended to hit the field first turn. It will usually run additional disruption elements like Energy discarding cards. Its Darkness Weakness is a big danger (more on that in a bit) and there are anti-spread cards that almost totally mitigate its best attacks.

Darkrai-EX (XY: BREAKpoint 74/122, 118/122) can hit harder the more Darkness Energy is in play. Giratina-EX (XY: Ancient Origins 57/98, 93/98) has an Ability that protects it from Mega Evolutions, while its attack prevents your opponent from playing Stadium, Special Energy, or Pokémon Tools from hand (and does solid damage). Thanks to Double Dragon Energy, you can use Giratina-EX to get a lot of [D] Energy in play quickly (Double Dragon Energy provides two units of Energy that count as all Energy Types). Giratina-EX is also used with Seismitoad-EX, for a deck more focused on locks. I am embarrassed to say, but I cannot remember if all three are used together or not.

Water Toolbox is a deck built around Basic Water Type attackers that all have different specializations. This is your typical Toolbox deck so as long as it gets the correct Pokémon at the correct time, it can counter many popular strategies. Of course, there are counters for its counters as well.

I've just described the various decks that managed to place in the Top 8 of the Masters Division at the 2016 U.S. National Championships. You can see the lists for these decks on the official Pokémon website here. Other recent, well performing decks are:

Greninja BREAK decks are slow starting, but are also the most budget friendly deck due to not using Shaymin-EX (XY: Roaring Skies 77/108, 106/108). Seriously, every other deck on here will want at least two copies of that thing. Greninja BREAK avoids running any Pokémon-EX and uses Greninja (XY: BREAKpoint 40/122) and Greninja (XY 41/146). Usually the XY: BREAKpoint Greninja is favored because it has a free Retreat Cost plus an attack that shuts down Abilities on your opponent's turn (read the cards and this will make more sense). Greninja from XY is still handy for extra damage counter placement. The deck is known for being down three, four, even five Prizes but then getting its setup and wrecking the opponent in another two or three turns for the win.

Mega Man, which consists of M Manectric-EX and various Basic attackers that it fuels; a Toolbox deck.

Zygarde-EX/Carbink BREAK, a Fighting Type deck. Just look through Fighting Type support and you'll get a good idea of how it works. Medicham (XY: Primal Clash 81/160) works in a similar manner, just using a small Stage 1 that can attack twice in a turn instead of a big, Basic Pokémon-EX.

Blackbox decks are a Darkness Tool Box deck, usually focused on Yveltal (XY 78/146 plus multiple re-releases), Yveltal-EX, Zoroark (XY: BREAKthrough 91/162), and sometimes Zoroark BREAK. Some versions will use Maxie's Hidden Ball Trick and some useful Fighting Types like Gallade (XY: BREAKthrough 84/162) instead, which isn't actually a Blackbox deck but I didn't feel like listing it separately.

Bronzong (XY: Phantom Forces 61/119) can attach basic Metal Energy from the discard pile to your Benched Pokémon. It is used to back up other Metal Type attackers, most notably Genesect-EX (XY: Fates Collide 64/124, 120/124). Bronzong isn't picky though and versions backing Giratina-EX (same version as above) and Tyrantrum-EX have done well before, as well as M Rayquaza-EX (XY: Roaring Skies 76/108, 105/108). Said M Rayquaza-EX also is used on its own, relying more heavily on Double Colorless Energy and Mega Turbo, but still working by dropping a Sky Field and rapidly filling its Bench to OHKO basically everything in the game.

Jolteon-EX and Vaporeaon-EX have attacks that are quite good at walling against an unprepared opponent. Often they are worked into something else, but some decks focus on them.

Seismitoad-EX/Crobat uses Crobat (XY: Phantom Forces 33/119) to offset the low damage output of Seismitoad-EX and its Quaking Punch (which locks down Items on your opponent's turn).

Aromatisse (XY 93/146) can move Fairy Type Energy around. There are a couple variants built around this but I'm not sure which ones are popular right now. It isn't overly strong, but it is a functional deck.

Entei (XY: Ancient Origins 15/98) had a successful deck where it paired up with Charizard-EX (XY: Flashfire 12/106); it was basically a fast, raw power deck though it could pull some defensive tricks. Hasn't been successful for a while, but you still run into them every now and again.

Wailord-EX had a stall/mill deck that also had some success, but I don't think it has been as good lately.

Anyway, out of time. Sorry some of these are rather... messy.

Wow, thank you so so much for the detailed and helpful reply! I was familiar with Expanded, but I wasn't particularly pleased with the thought of going up against threats that I had long since forgotten about since they rotated. Regardless, I'll look into it again.

Legacy sounds intriguing. I like the idea of a format where I can play more gimmicky, less speedy decks. That format also includes the Lost Zone based cards, which was always a cool concept to me. I may just have to try it out, thanks!

It's too bad about rogues, but I guess it's to be expected. We can't all be google Cawthon (is he still on the scene?). The speed is also a little dismaying, but the fact that there are a couple of cards that allow stage 2s to bypass their evolutions is comforting.

And thank you so much for the rundown of the meta! I'm familiar with a couple of the decks you've mentioned - I've tested out Night March, Trevenant, and Aromatisse on TCG One already, and Darkrai caught my eye when I was browsing set scans. I have to say, I'm loving the Aromatisse deck, although it's not quite fast enough to keep up with stuff like Night March or Vespiquen (which I see a lot of).

And thanks again for the response! I really appreciate it. One last question, if I may: what are some staples that most or all decks run? I can't imagine that a lot of the old staples (N, Juniper, Skyla, Ultra Ball, etc.) would have fallen out of use, but how many generally are played? And what other cards have joined their ranks?

 

[Otaku]

It's too bad about rogues, but I guess it's to be expected. We can't all be google Cawthon (is he still on the scene?). The speed is also a little dismaying, but the fact that there are a couple of cards that allow stage 2s to bypass their evolutions is comforting.

Just to be clear, my main point was that most of us who thought we were playing rogue decks all those years... weren't. XD If you understood that, cool. If not... I made a really long, messy post hence my wanted to clarify.

And thanks again for the response! I really appreciate it. One last question, if I may: what are some staples that most or all decks run? I can't imagine that a lot of the old staples (N, Juniper, Skyla, Ultra Ball, etc.) would have fallen out of use, but how many generally are played? And what other cards have joined their ranks?

You're welcome. Now I did give you a way to find the staples yourself, at least so long as that link I posted to the winners of the U.S. Nationals Masters Division Top 8 decks worked for you. Actually while the link works for me, I have noticed the page features can be browser sensitive: sometimes Firefox displays the kind of drop down menu like deck lists and sometimes it doesn't. So opening that page in Chrome to verify, here are some staples to obtain. As is often the case, there might be a deck that gets by without these, in some cases several, but these are the most common cards run in various decks which are at least somewhat generic. I'll try to do order of importance, but that is a bit subjective.

1) Shaymin-EX (XY: Roaring Skies 77/108, 106/108)

So important that I don't even have to look up its set name/card numbers anymore, because I have to post them so much: there is another Shaymin-EX that released first that is not a staple in the slightest, even for Grass decks (it is a Grass Type). Bianca if you will recall, is a Supporter that has you draw until you have six cards in hand. Not such a great effect for a Supporter, but as an Ability that triggers when you Bench the Pokémon in question from hand, turns out it was gamebreaking. Many (most?) decks plan on Benching a Shaymin-EX or two on their first turn to aid in their setup. Some decks run more copies to try and insure it, but as it is so small (110 HP) and worth two Prizes when KO'd, most also want to avoid Benching more than that.

2) VS Seeker

This is a reprint of an older card, and time has made it even better than when it first released. VS Seeker is dead if you have no Supporter (or worthwhile Supporter) in your discard pile, but as you'll come to understand that is rarely an issue in a well build deck (well, having no useful targets does happen every now and then). Obviously it is only as good as the Supporters it can retrieve... but with the added benefit of flexibility as it can not only give you a 5th through 8th use an otherwise maxed out Supporter, but in conjunction with Shaymin-EX (above) and Battle Compressor (below) make it much easier to toolbox your Supporters, running a single situation Supporter you can effectively use five times (four if you had to toss it first) as the situation warrants. Few decks will run less than four VS Seeker.

3) Battle Compressor

Thinning your deck is a general TCG strategy. Thanks to VS Seeker you get a combo to ensure you have either the proper draw/search Supporter for the turn, or to get your specialized Supporters out of your deck. Now deck specific uses vary; Night March will usually be tossing its Lampent first and foremost, but they still gain added reliability from the first trick. There are also cards like Ace Trainer (not very good), Judge (okay), N (still very good), and Red Card (good but most decks lack space) to wreck long term plans. Cultivating a hand that should either give you something good or something to get something good becomes more and more important near end game, even though it of course matters the whole game as well; N to one can completely reverse a match if you're left without options. Even though some decks don't run it at all, Battle Compressor is so important to the format I feel it worth mentioning now.

4) Professor Sycamore/Professor Juniper

If you end up focusing on the Legacy Format, then obvious Professor Juniper is better as Professor Sycamore isn't legal, but otherwise Professor Sycamore covers both Standard and Expanded play. This is still the big draw Supporter of the game, but additional options have helped decks that can't afford to be so reckless with their hands, allowing them to run fewer of it (saving it for emergencies). Most decks are going to run three or four, but a few get by with just two.

5) Ultra Ball

As it can both fetch Shaymin-EX and thin your hand, maybe I should have listed this sooner. So yeah, not only important for getting what you need, but Shaymin-EX basically lets it fake being a Supporter.

6) Lysandre

All decks will run at least one while others two or three; Lysandre has that game winning effect of letting you control what your opponent has Active. As it is a Supporter decks show some restraint and excess copies would be dead in hand. A prime target for VS Seeker late game, bringing up a Shaymin-EX or the like for a win.

7) N

Though not what it once was, N is still a valuable shuffle-and-draw card for most decks with the risk/reward of messing with the opponent's hand. As such a single seems like a staple, with some decks still maxing it out, and others being in between.

8) Trainers' Mail

Can't grab itself, but every other Trainer is up for grabs. If it wasn't for Item lock this would probably be more important; top decks are half or more Trainer!

9) Puzzle of Time

A great effect for any deck but with a cost that means only certain decks bother. It has two effects, with the important one being the effect that requires you discard a second copy of Puzzle of Time to activate: two cards from your discard pile back in hand, no restrictions. Usually this will be Double Colorless Energy, though a clutch Supporter or piece of TecH or (in Expanded) an Ace Spec are also great targets.

10) Acro Bike

More dangerous-but-worth-it deck thinning, at least for certain decks like Night March or those with an easily reclaimed resource (lot of Pokémon and/or Basic Energy), as that usually gives you one "safe" card to discard.

11) Hex Maniac

Usually just as a single, but Hex Maniac can shut down all Abilities until the end of your opponent's turn. Quite sick if you go first, use a few Shaymin-EX or other non Supporter options to set up, then finish with Hex Maniac so that your opponent cannot use anything but Trainers for his or her own set up. Most decks are basically half Ability for set up anymore. This is in addition to its main use; shutting off protective Abilities like Safeguard.

12) Xerosic

Thanks to Battle Compressor, VS Seeker, and a format where Tools/Special Energy are so important, a lone Xerosic graces many deck lists. There are better options to discard Special Energy (Enhanced Hammer) or tools (Startling Megaphone), but Xerosic is one card that can hit either and target cards on your own side of the field if needed.

13) Startling Megaphone/Tool Scrapper

Thanks to Pokémon Tool F and Spirit Link cards, you sometimes need to be selective in discarding Pokémon Tools, so in Expanded some decks still include Tool Scrapper. Without such concerns, Starling Megaphone is amazing... but only enough to be a single in most lists.

14) Teammates

Not for every deck, but those that need key cards and are likely to suffer OHKOs really enjoy Teammates as a single (reused via VS Seeker).

15) Town Map

Deck lists are so tight that many can't afford something important being blindly stuck in the Prizes. It goes beyond avoiding your deck being crippled as well; your Prizes act like a kind of specialized search if you're running a fast, hard hitting deck like Night March.

Ugh, sorry, had a busy weekend and am still not fully there. Better call it quits with that. Again though just look at those deck lists and the card counts, and it should become clear.

 

[Trap]

Just to be clear, my main point was that most of us who thought we were playing rogue decks all those years... weren't. XD If you understood that, cool. If not... I made a really long, messy post hence my wanted to clarify.



You're welcome. Now I did give you a way to find the staples yourself, at least so long as that link I posted to the winners of the U.S. Nationals Masters Division Top 8 decks worked for you. Actually while the link works for me, I have noticed the page features can be browser sensitive: sometimes Firefox displays the kind of drop down menu like deck lists and sometimes it doesn't. So opening that page in Chrome to verify, here are some staples to obtain. As is often the case, there might be a deck that gets by without these, in some cases several, but these are the most common cards run in various decks which are at least somewhat generic. I'll try to do order of importance, but that is a bit subjective.

1) Shaymin-EX (XY: Roaring Skies 77/108, 106/108)

So important that I don't even have to look up its set name/card numbers anymore, because I have to post them so much: there is another Shaymin-EX that released first that is not a staple in the slightest, even for Grass decks (it is a Grass Type). Bianca if you will recall, is a Supporter that has you draw until you have six cards in hand. Not such a great effect for a Supporter, but as an Ability that triggers when you Bench the Pokémon in question from hand, turns out it was gamebreaking. Many (most?) decks plan on Benching a Shaymin-EX or two on their first turn to aid in their setup. Some decks run more copies to try and insure it, but as it is so small (110 HP) and worth two Prizes when KO'd, most also want to avoid Benching more than that.

2) VS Seeker

This is a reprint of an older card, and time has made it even better than when it first released. VS Seeker is dead if you have no Supporter (or worthwhile Supporter) in your discard pile, but as you'll come to understand that is rarely an issue in a well build deck (well, having no useful targets does happen every now and then). Obviously it is only as good as the Supporters it can retrieve... but with the added benefit of flexibility as it can not only give you a 5th through 8th use an otherwise maxed out Supporter, but in conjunction with Shaymin-EX (above) and Battle Compressor (below) make it much easier to toolbox your Supporters, running a single situation Supporter you can effectively use five times (four if you had to toss it first) as the situation warrants. Few decks will run less than four VS Seeker.

3) Battle Compressor

Thinning your deck is a general TCG strategy. Thanks to VS Seeker you get a combo to ensure you have either the proper draw/search Supporter for the turn, or to get your specialized Supporters out of your deck. Now deck specific uses vary; Night March will usually be tossing its Lampent first and foremost, but they still gain added reliability from the first trick. There are also cards like Ace Trainer (not very good), Judge (okay), N (still very good), and Red Card (good but most decks lack space) to wreck long term plans. Cultivating a hand that should either give you something good or something to get something good becomes more and more important near end game, even though it of course matters the whole game as well; N to one can completely reverse a match if you're left without options. Even though some decks don't run it at all, Battle Compressor is so important to the format I feel it worth mentioning now.

4) Professor Sycamore/Professor Juniper

If you end up focusing on the Legacy Format, then obvious Professor Juniper is better as Professor Sycamore isn't legal, but otherwise Professor Sycamore covers both Standard and Expanded play. This is still the big draw Supporter of the game, but additional options have helped decks that can't afford to be so reckless with their hands, allowing them to run fewer of it (saving it for emergencies). Most decks are going to run three or four, but a few get by with just two.

5) Ultra Ball

As it can both fetch Shaymin-EX and thin your hand, maybe I should have listed this sooner. So yeah, not only important for getting what you need, but Shaymin-EX basically lets it fake being a Supporter.

6) Lysandre

All decks will run at least one while others two or three; Lysandre has that game winning effect of letting you control what your opponent has Active. As it is a Supporter decks show some restraint and excess copies would be dead in hand. A prime target for VS Seeker late game, bringing up a Shaymin-EX or the like for a win.

7) N

Though not what it once was, N is still a valuable shuffle-and-draw card for most decks with the risk/reward of messing with the opponent's hand. As such a single seems like a staple, with some decks still maxing it out, and others being in between.

8) Trainers' Mail

Can't grab itself, but every other Trainer is up for grabs. If it wasn't for Item lock this would probably be more important; top decks are half or more Trainer!

9) Puzzle of Time

A great effect for any deck but with a cost that means only certain decks bother. It has two effects, with the important one being the effect that requires you discard a second copy of Puzzle of Time to activate: two cards from your discard pile back in hand, no restrictions. Usually this will be Double Colorless Energy, though a clutch Supporter or piece of TecH or (in Expanded) an Ace Spec are also great targets.

10) Acro Bike

More dangerous-but-worth-it deck thinning, at least for certain decks like Night March or those with an easily reclaimed resource (lot of Pokémon and/or Basic Energy), as that usually gives you one "safe" card to discard.

11) Hex Maniac

Usually just as a single, but Hex Maniac can shut down all Abilities until the end of your opponent's turn. Quite sick if you go first, use a few Shaymin-EX or other non Supporter options to set up, then finish with Hex Maniac so that your opponent cannot use anything but Trainers for his or her own set up. Most decks are basically half Ability for set up anymore. This is in addition to its main use; shutting off protective Abilities like Safeguard.

12) Xerosic

Thanks to Battle Compressor, VS Seeker, and a format where Tools/Special Energy are so important, a lone Xerosic graces many deck lists. There are better options to discard Special Energy (Enhanced Hammer) or tools (Startling Megaphone), but Xerosic is one card that can hit either and target cards on your own side of the field if needed.

13) Startling Megaphone/Tool Scrapper

Thanks to Pokémon Tool F and Spirit Link cards, you sometimes need to be selective in discarding Pokémon Tools, so in Expanded some decks still include Tool Scrapper. Without such concerns, Starling Megaphone is amazing... but only enough to be a single in most lists.

14) Teammates

Not for every deck, but those that need key cards and are likely to suffer OHKOs really enjoy Teammates as a single (reused via VS Seeker).

15) Town Map

Deck lists are so tight that many can't afford something important being blindly stuck in the Prizes. It goes beyond avoiding your deck being crippled as well; your Prizes act like a kind of specialized search if you're running a fast, hard hitting deck like Night March.

Ugh, sorry, had a busy weekend and am still not fully there. Better call it quits with that. Again though just look at those deck lists and the card counts, and it should become clear.

Thanks once again for the detailed reply! I'll take a look at those decklists, but I appreciate the basic list as well. I'm familiar with a couple of these cards, but a couple were new to me, so I'm glad to hear a bit about them.