P!P/Rules Should Seismitoad EX be Banned for Standard and Expanded?

Carmen Sandiego

Carmen Sandiego

Aspiring Trainer
Member
Hello, I am posting this because I am of an opinion that Seismitoad Ex is a little overpowered in the current format being able to shut down 1/3 to 2/3 of players decks it's very frustrating to play against and at lest for me take a lot of fun out of the game.
 
Hello,
Sorry but there will always be cards like this. In my opinion there are two types of decks. The first is one that carries out it's own strategy. The second tries to shut down someone else's. It was the same idea as with Pyroar. Many people thought it was very overpowered. And that's because people didn't really have something like it before. Ina couple months Pyroar became a deck that was fairly easily beaten. Seismitoad EX can be handled if your well prepared. Now decks just take a bit more thought with a meta changing card like this. But I don't think it should be banned because of it's very low damage output. It takes generally 4 quaking punches for a knockout. And with Megas and primals having such high HP it takes to long to get a knockout. And generally the other decks will get set up before the toad can take a couple knockouts. And especially next season when hypnotoxic laser and virbank (hopefully) rotate out.
 
No card should ever be banned. The only card that was banned was Sneasel from Neo Genesis because it was "broken" for that era because elf the damage output. Toad is only doing 30 on its own. If you are worried about tons of Toads in your area, maybe play Leafeon PLF or just Head Ringers.

Head Ringers really hurt Toad and can lead to 2 turns of Items.
 
There's a very big difference between a card being bad for the format and whether it should be banned.

Is Seismitoad "broken?" Technically no--while it limits creativity, it's not any more "overpowered" than any of the other big EX's in the format right now.

It is however EXTREMELY annoying and not fun to play against, and as I mentioned before, it severely limits creativity because stage 2 decks basically don't work anymore. The item lock is only one piece of it--most Seismitoad decks are based around disruption and energy removal. If you don't draw energy or don't see supporters, considering you can't play VS seeker, you might be sitting and passing for a very long time. I hate the arguement "well there are cards that can beat it, and you can learn to play around it." You can learn to play around anything. That doesn't make it fun to play against.

So Seismitoad is an extremely stupid card that should have never been printed and severely hinders what would otherwise be a pretty solid format. But I don't think a card should be banned unless it's something like Sneasel or Slowking as mentioned in the post above.

P.S. Also want to note that playing Head Ringers or Leafeon doesn't beat toad. If you don't draw the Head Ringers on turn 1, they're useless, and Leafeon three hot KO's toad without a tool and Flareon decks tend to dead draw against Semsitoad because they are very reliant on item draw. that's sort of the issue--even cards that should be good against Seismitoad aren't because item lock is dumb.
 
I hate Seismitoad too but it definitely shouldn't be banned. There's always one Pokemon a**hole that is just there to ruin everyone's fun. Before Toad it was Pyroar. Before Pyroar it was Garbodor. It's just an inconvenience you have to tech for.

Like other people have said, a card should only be banned if it completely ruins the format to the point where playing that card against someone who is not playing that card is basically an auto win. Even then, I think it's more likely that they would print an errata for the card to rebalance it like they did for Pokemon Catcher rather than outright banning it.
 
I don't think Seismitoad needs to be banned, but I'd feel a lot more comfortable if its first attack was [W] [C] instead of [C] [C], or maybe have a coin flip for the effect. Seismitoad is something that no one wants in the format honestly. Just when stage 2 decks were coming back a bit, Seismitoad throws them back down. I don't think anyone really wants Seismitoad here.
 
The quad-Seismitoad archetype is good, but it's still a really hard deck to play. I don't think it should be banned, except maybe for the fact that it's unfun to play against.

I also think the card should not have been printed, since item lock is really powerful in an unfun way,and it should definitely not be colorless. If it cost [W][C] and did 50, I think that'd be an acceptable tradeoff. Takes 2 turns to set up and still heavily reliant on muscle band. But oh well!

I don't think it's banworthy, it takes skill to use well and basically auto-loses to Virizion/Genesect.
 
From a games design point of view it's boring and unfun, any mechanic that takes control away from someone or locks them out of the game, especially in deck building games is generally something to be avoided. I think the biggest problem with it is that it's [c][c]. If it was [c][c][c] or [w][c] then it would be a bit more manageable.
 
The short, simple answer from a myriad of players who arec sick of Seismitoad? Yes, ban it. I can empathize with anyone who agrees with that statement. The problem with Toad is the perceived simplicity of the decks, the spees at which you can shut your opponent down, and the Water typing giving it a strength against other popular cards. There have also always been decks like this in the format (TrevGor/GothGor, Dragonite PLF, etc.) that block Items or other key thingz that players need access to. The main difference here is that most of these older decks needs several evolutions and set up slowly. Therefor, a fares, aggressive deck like Plasma or Yveltal could outplay them by knocking out the Pokemon quickly or before they evolve. Toad is less combo intensive to achieve the lock. Rather support cards like Garbodor of Slurpuff help to cripple the opponent, but simply using Quakijg Punch can be done from the get go.

While Seismitoad decks do require skill to play effectively, it's easier to pull off than other lock decks, and it's simple for anew playercto pick up. But it's thid extreme popularity that could serve as a downfall, withoit the card being banned. I saw a lot of Seismitoad counters today at States, and you can expect that trend to continue.
 
Seismitoad EX should not be banned at all. The card does slow some decks down and is very easily teched into any deck that runs double colorless energy. If the attack paralyzed the oppenent and stoped them from playing Item cards it would be different, but with the ability to continue to attack the Seismitoad EX it cant be seen as a broken card. Seismitoad EX is easily counterd as well, any deck that runs double colorless energy can and probably do play at least one Mewtwo EX which is a great counter to Seismitoad EX because the damage output is higher. Hawlucha is another good counter for Seismitoad EX because it can do good damage for a single enrgy has free retreat and also is hard for Seismitoad EX to knock out. Grass pokemon like leafeon and tropius can also be used as counters to Seismitoad EX. Cobalion EX is another very good counter to it. The TrevGor decks were far more menacing than Seismitoad EX because they were almost considerd an Auto win against anything but Virizion EX and Keldeo EX's, where Seismitoad EX can be worked around easier.
 
I hope this is a troll thread.

As others have already said, Seismitoad EX shouldn't be banned. It loses to VirGen or Plasma Leafeon. I personally find him easier to play against than Pyroar because he's only blocking Items not preventing damage from all Basics. Locking Items isn't that big of a deal anyways, especially against Seismitoad/Garbodor decks because I rely on Supporters mainly. Lysandre replaces Pokemon catcher and Xeroxic replaces Startling Megaphone.
 
My Little Keldeo said:
I saw a lot of Seismitoad counters today at States, and you can expect that trend to continue.
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My two penn'th:

Until recently, quadtoads looked like tier 2. Based on results, they never seemed to be quite up there with Yveltal and whatever was doing the damage. Based on the first week of states, Quad Toad looks to be up to the top level. It almost looks like the main thing Toad players are worried about is their matchup with other Toad decks.

You really would hope/expect that that would lead to a new level of teching for Toad.
 
Next format will be a different story, two of the main counters that you listed will rotate. Sure so will Virbank and Lasers, but we still have a couple more sets and Toad players may end up using bats as a replacement.
 
Ironman131 said:
Seismitoad EX is easily countered
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No. This is actually the problem with item lock in general--there's no such thing as an "easy counter." I don't think people understand that the main reason Seismitoad is so powerful is because it makes it SO easy to dead draw. You can't search out basics or energy, so you have to rely on getting lucky off draw supporters. And to make matters worse, you can't VS seeker, so you might not even have supporters.

Leafeon is the best example of this--a card that theoretically should work wonders against toad, as it does a lot of damage for a single colorless energy and even resists water. But a vast majority of top players (even if you don't believe me, ask them), will agree that Flareon has a bad Seismitoad matchup--because despite all the theoretical reasons why Flareon should beat Seismitoad (of which there are plenty), it ends up losing because it can't draw what it needs, and the Leafeons go down one by one. That's not even mentioning all the things that can go wrong due to flippy cards--SSU heals the damage off, hammers can get rid of your energy, and lasers can put you in an inescapable sleep.

Heck, I've even seen Virizion/Genesect lose to Seismitoad, because all of their energy gets hammered off, they whiff supporters and/or energy, and they lose. It's not common, but again, it's a pretty clear example of how absolutely stupid the card is. If you could toss in a tech and beat toad 9/10 times, then whatever, it wouldn't matter. But you can't, because item lock is an incredibly powerful mechanic and should NEVER be this easy to pull off. I'm actually beginning to take back what I said earlier in this thread--banning might seem silly, but Toad is so dominating, so stupid to play against due to dead drawing, and so limiting for the format that I'd be more than happy to see it banned. If it benefits the game, why not? It won't happen, but saying Toad is good for the game seems silly. Doing so is trying way too hard to look past the flaws with the card and this format.
 
I agree with Blah. Yesterday at NH states, I faced a deck that is a direct counter to Seismitoad EX, Leafeon PLF / Deoxys EX. In the end, it ended with an unexpected record with a room full of Toads and didn't even make top 32 (out of ~70 masters)
 
Just because a deck is a direct counter to seismitoad EX dosent mean that it will play nothing but seismitoad EXs. And the matchup against other decks is likley not a good matchup for the direct seismitoad EX counter. Seismitoad EX makes cards like xerosic playable, lets face it if SeismitOad EX wasnt in the format this card would be irrelevent. Seismitoad EX does hurt evoultion decks but at the same time it slowes big EX's and in turn makes the game more evoultion friendly.
 
Ironman131 said:
Just because a deck is a direct counter to seismitoad EX dosent mean that it will play nothing but seismitoad EXs. And the matchup against other decks is likley not a good matchup for the direct seismitoad EX counter. Seismitoad EX makes cards like xerosic playable, lets face it if SeismitOad EX wasnt in the format this card would be irrelevent. Seismitoad EX does hurt evoultion decks but at the same time it slowes big EX's and in turn makes the game more evoultion friendly.
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Oh I know that it wouldn't only play Toad but was a great chance to. I faced him and I don't use just a Toad Deck (3 Toads in Yveltal deck). But yes, I agree that a lot of decks will use Xerosic to help a bit against Seismitoad.
 
Gengar master said:
No card should ever be banned. The only card that was banned was Sneasel from Neo Genesis because it was "broken" for that era because elf the damage output. Toad is only doing 30 on its own. If you are worried about tons of Toads in your area, maybe play Leafeon PLF or just Head Ringers.

Head Ringers really hurt Toad and can lead to 2 turns of Items.
Click to expand...
This kind of thinking is the exact reason pokemon tcg has continuously lost marketshare to other games, particularly the dollars now going into the online space where balance is frequently taken into account. Feel free to continue this contrived line of thought though where players can magically get the trainers they need down against the thing that denies the trainers being played in the first place. Fact of the matter is since you can't re-balance a printed game you have to ban cards that completely change the dynamics of a format. Toad is one of those cards that does this. Sneasel wasn't the primary offender of that Neo Genesis deck, it was the Slowking which did get banned as well. What did slowking do that was so heinous? denied trainer cards, sound familiar? Yeah.
 
Toad cannot attack first turn so that gives you a whole turn to play item cards. Cards like Xerosic can also allow you to get turns of items if the toad player can not get another double colorless energy quick enough.
 
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