Discussion SM4 Worst Set Ever?

TheDude133

Aspiring Trainer
Member
So now that we have the scans for SM4, I've notice something. There is only TWO cards in the set that are even playable in competitive standard, Lusamine and Silvally GX. Everything else is this set is actually terrible. All of the other GX's are absolutely terrible, and are outclassed by most things that are out right now. None of the trainers are good, Counter Energy is bad, Gladion MIGHT see play as a 1-of, but that's a stretch. Even the Non-GX Pokemon are lackluster. I don't see any sale value in the packs of this set at all. And just like i said in a thread a few weeks ago, the Ultra Beasts continue to be bad. Unless there was a set before HGSS when i started playing that was worse than this set, this is the worst set Pokemon has ever dropped.

http://www.pokebeach.com/2017/09/sm4-the-awoken-hero-and-the-transdimensional-beast-translations
 
While it's true that the Japanese version Crimson Invasion is already out, I honestly wouldn't write off the whole set just yet at first glance. The Ultra Beasts look promising IMO. Mismagius is also a potential teammate for Garbodor or Noivern GX despite Chaos Wheel's low damage output.

Remember when some people thought that Ninetales GX was one of the worst cards of Guardians Rising? (The Charizard Lounge, for example, thought that it was bad: http://thecharizardlounge.com/2017/05/02/pokemon-guardians-rising-set-review/) And we were proven wrong with a dedicated Alolan Ninetales deck winning a Japanese tournament when Guardians Rising was still relatively new in Japan:

Obviously, Japan gets Crimson Invasion first, so I'd rather wait for them to playtest the cards and see what new combos they can come up with before complaining about something like this.

Edit: granted, The Charizard Lounge did their Guardians Rising review after the tournament, but my point still stands that there are cards besides Lusamine and Silvally GX that have potential and Japanese players may find combos with Crimson Invasion cards that we may have missed at first glance.
 
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I don't see where people thought Ninetails GX was a bad card. Everyone that i had talked to about it said the card was good and thought that waterbox would form around that card instead of Lapras GX. I never heard anyone say it was bad?

The Ultra Beasts look promising? How? None of them would last two turns against anything in the meta. They got no support this set (called it) and they are so bad. Anything you want to do with the Ultra Beasts you could do with better cards.

Everyone always says "wait for japan to find something", but does no one remember the Garchomp/Altaria deck from Dragons Vault that was "supposed to be tier 0" when it hit the US, but it literally never made a top cut here?

Mismagius isn't good. Neither is Noivern GX. Did you forget that Gardevoir is Tier 1? What does Mismagius offer against Gardevoir, or Metagross for that matter? Absolutely nothing. Not a single pokemon on this list, except Silvally GX, will ever see competitve. And even then, unless you pair him up with Lapras or Ho-oh, he won't even see play.
 
While it's true that the Japanese version Crimson Invasion is already out

It has? I haven't seen a full set list from Pokebeach yet though?

Agree to disagree with the OP. There are some very promising cards and we still have no idea what kind of support items/ supporters Ultra Beasts will get either in this set or in the future. Counter Energy isn't really bad, it's just not really relevant right not because we have a notable lack of viable non-GX/ EX attackers right now (partially because OHKOing is viewed as incredibly important and no non-GX/ EX can hit those numbers right now).

I personally like dash pouch. It's another active tool card that will help you recycle your resources (especially when it comes to Special Energy is the translation I'm looking at is right).

Alolan Exeggutor
30px-Pok%C3%A9mon_Red_GX.png
has a garbage MU against Gardy
30px-Pok%C3%A9mon_Red_GX.png
, for sure, but an Exeggutor
30px-Pok%C3%A9mon_Red_GX.png
/ Venusaur deck looks interesting and could be amazing if the meta starts shifting away from Gardy.

The Regi quadruplets as have some promise and I'm looking forward to that 'rogue' deck in the future.

Nihilego makes Alolan Muk
30px-Pok%C3%A9mon_Red_GX.png
look really promising IMO. Kartana
30px-Pok%C3%A9mon_Red_GX.png
is another Beast I think will be seen around. Buzzwole
30px-Pok%C3%A9mon_Red_GX.png
could see some use too. Once again let's wait to see what, if any, support cards they announce for Beasts. Oh and don't forget there are three more Beasts that are currently planned as Promo only releases.

Counter catcher is a VERY good card.

The new Gengar card could actually be really good in combo with Creep Show Gengar. Have two of the new set ones out on the field and any attachment from the hand will allow Creep Show Gengar to get an instant KO.

And while it stacks up pretty poorly against Metagross
30px-Pok%C3%A9mon_Red_GX.png
and Gardy
30px-Pok%C3%A9mon_Red_GX.png
I can't wait to try out Gyarados
30px-Pok%C3%A9mon_Red_GX.png
. Gyarados is my second favorite Gen 1 Pokemon.

In general I just think that writing off this set is bad, until we've gotten a chance to build some decks with it and see how it synergizes with older cards. And really do you think this set is worse than Evolutions? Double Crisis? Fates Collide was a pretty big stinker too. If they hadn't reprinted N in that set I don't know if anyone would've bought packs.
 
I don't see where people thought Ninetails GX was a bad card. Everyone that i had talked to about it said the card was good and thought that waterbox would form around that card instead of Lapras GX. I never heard anyone say it was bad?

The Ultra Beasts look promising? How? None of them would last two turns against anything in the meta. They got no support this set (called it) and they are so bad. Anything you want to do with the Ultra Beasts you could do with better cards.

Everyone always says "wait for japan to find something", but does no one remember the Garchomp/Altaria deck from Dragons Vault that was "supposed to be tier 0" when it hit the US, but it literally never made a top cut here?

Mismagius isn't good. Neither is Noivern GX. Did you forget that Gardevoir is Tier 1? What does Mismagius offer against Gardevoir, or Metagross for that matter? Absolutely nothing. Not a single pokemon on this list, except Silvally GX, will ever see competitve. And even then, unless you pair him up with Lapras or Ho-oh, he won't even see play.
Kartana is a searchable Enhanced Hammer. I can see it as a tech in any deck that uses Rainbow Energy so it can use Blade to take your last prize if you haven't used your GX attack already.

Buzzwole has access to a myriad of Fighting support (Brooklet Hill, Carbink Break, Strong Energy), despite Knuckle Impact and Absorption being rather expensive. Another thing: while I wait for Knuckle Impact to be charged up, that time can be spent Jet Punching opposing Pokemon to wear them down.

I haven't forgotten that Gardevoir exists. It's true that it wrecks Noivern and other dragons, but while it's the best deck in the format, it's not completely unstoppable. Mismagius can slow down decks reliant on special energies and tools with Chaos Wheel, then take advantage of the possible dead draws with Black Magic.

People thought Ninetales was a bad card because of the hefty discard cost of Blizzard Edge.

Just because a deck that saw success in Japan flopped overseas doesn't mean that the same thing will happen now. You're being too pessimistic about Crimson Invasion as a whole IMO. As I mentioned, give the Japanese players time to playtest the cards. You just might be proven wrong.

It has? I haven't seen a full set list from Pokebeach yet though?

All the card images are on the Crimson Invasion article.
 
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Agree with PlatinumDude. People also thought that Golisopod looked underwhelming and they were wrong. I also remember a lot of people not liking Ninetales at first leading up the the release of Guardians Rising. You're being way too critical of something that hasn't even had time to be tested yet.
 
It has? I haven't seen a full set list from Pokebeach yet though?

Agree to disagree with the OP. There are some very promising cards and we still have no idea what kind of support items/ supporters Ultra Beasts will get either in this set or in the future. Counter Energy isn't really bad, it's just not really relevant right not because we have a notable lack of viable non-GX/ EX attackers right now (partially because OHKOing is viewed as incredibly important and no non-GX/ EX can hit those numbers right now).

I personally like dash pouch. It's another active tool card that will help you recycle your resources (especially when it comes to Special Energy is the translation I'm looking at is right).

Alolan Exeggutor
30px-Pok%C3%A9mon_Red_GX.png
has a garbage MU against Gardy
30px-Pok%C3%A9mon_Red_GX.png
, for sure, but an Exeggutor
30px-Pok%C3%A9mon_Red_GX.png
/ Venusaur deck looks interesting and could be amazing if the meta starts shifting away from Gardy.

The Regi quadruplets as have some promise and I'm looking forward to that 'rogue' deck in the future.

Nihilego makes Alolan Muk
30px-Pok%C3%A9mon_Red_GX.png
look really promising IMO. Kartana
30px-Pok%C3%A9mon_Red_GX.png
is another Beast I think will be seen around. Buzzwole
30px-Pok%C3%A9mon_Red_GX.png
could see some use too. Once again let's wait to see what, if any, support cards they announce for Beasts. Oh and don't forget there are three more Beasts that are currently planned as Promo only releases.

Counter catcher is a VERY good card.

The new Gengar card could actually be really good in combo with Creep Show Gengar. Have two of the new set ones out on the field and any attachment from the hand will allow Creep Show Gengar to get an instant KO.

And while it stacks up pretty poorly against Metagross
30px-Pok%C3%A9mon_Red_GX.png
and Gardy
30px-Pok%C3%A9mon_Red_GX.png
I can't wait to try out Gyarados
30px-Pok%C3%A9mon_Red_GX.png
. Gyarados is my second favorite Gen 1 Pokemon.

In general I just think that writing off this set is bad, until we've gotten a chance to build some decks with it and see how it synergizes with older cards. And really do you think this set is worse than Evolutions? Double Crisis? Fates Collide was a pretty big stinker too. If they hadn't reprinted N in that set I don't know if anyone would've bought packs.
Dash Pouch is only good with Golosipod GX.

Alolan Exeggutor GX is bad. Even if you pair it with Venasuar, you have to go 3 Grass energy deep to do the same amount of damage that Dragon Hammer does, 4 if you want do do more, all while having no energy acceleration what-so-ever. It doesn't have good match-ups into anything in the meta because its too slow.

The Regi's are bad because you HAVE to have all of them on board to do anything meaningful. Registeel is the main attacker, but its energy cost for actual damage is too high and takes too long, plus you need multiple Regirocks for good damage. Regice does nothing for match-ups outside of Stage 2, it doesn't protect Regirock, and its attack does nothing. Regigas is god awful because of energy costs. And Regirock is a bench sitter that can be catchered out and has 3 retreat. I wouldnt put this deck in tier 6, its that bad.

The problem with Alolan Muk GX decks is that A, They aren't consistant. B, Nihilego GX helps one problem but makes two more problems. C, It doesn't have any kind of late game. You can't CONSISTENTLY get the status effects you need every turn you need them AND keep Muk on the board ready to go. Nihlego Affects your pokemon as well, so you HAVE to have Chaos Tower, which isn't searchable mind you, and reduces your consistency because its another card in your deck that doesn't add to your speed. Not to mention it's incredibly squishy so it's an easy target to OHKO and now you've given up two prizes. And the longer the game goes, the less resources you are going to have, so the less chance you have to hit all your moving pieces. That's why Alolan Muk GX is bad, because the deck is fundamentally bad.

Everyone keeps talking about how Kartana is a searchable Enhanced Hammer. Let's put this into perspective. It's searchable by Ultra Ball. That's it. And it's not even a good enhanced hammer, because with its 170 hp, it can get steam rolled so easy. It's like enhanced hammer GX where you get to discard a special energy form your opponent, but they get to draw two prize cards. That's garbage. I'd rather just play enhanced hammer and deal with the very slightly worse Garbodor Matchup. Blade GX is so bad. Out of 100 games, how many times do you think you're A, going to have access to Kartana at one prize. B, have access to a Rainbow Energy at one prize. C, going to have the resources to make Kartana active with a Rainbow at one prize. It's a cool concept for a GX attack, but on someone like Kartana that you are NEVER going to attack with, it's bad.

Buzzwole is the beast UB, but it's still outclassed by other things. It has a psychic weakness, so it autolose to Garbodor. It takes three turn to set up, meaning you need to Elixer it at least once, and use Sivally GX or Carbink BREAK to charge in one turn. Plus, once that one dies, you need to have a second one ready to go. And with 190 not being a hard number to hit in a lot of decks, you will lose the speed race, easily. "But you can soften things up with his first attack" why would you need to? He hits for 190 with a band, 210 with a strong energy. That's enough damage to OHKO any Basic/Stage 1 GX. You will never beat Metagross or Gardevoir because they can OHKO you too easy and you have no way to OHKO them back Unless you used his first attack a few times, which even then Max potion is a thing in both those decks, AND you dtill have to get him charged up. He's not as bad as the rest of the UB, but he's not good.

Counter Catcher is bad for the same reason Counter Energy is bad. It only works from behind. Meaning if you're ahead, you have a dead card in your deck, and thats one less card per copy that is going to keep you ahead. If you have a 50-50 matchup or better against a deck, then out of 100 games, both counter cards are going to be deck at a minimum of 50 times. That's incredibly terrible. You need cards that are live at all times and against all match-ups.

Gengar is bad because while yes, the Creep Show Gengar is a thing, you have a lot of moving pieces that are way to fragile. Almost everything in the meta can hit for 130 turn 2. So if you go second, you are at an incredible disadvantage. Not to mention you have to have the Creep SHow out and ready, AND have at least one if not two of the new one on bench, AND they have to have 3 counters already which won't happen because you didn't attack the first turn, AND you have to keep the Creep Show Gengar AND the new one on board at all times or you have no damage. Think about what your ratio would have to be for Gengar, Remember, you can only have 4.

Garydos GX has the same problem Garydos EX has, time. It takes SOOOOO long to set him up for any kind of good damage, Plus you have to have a stadium on board every turn, and if i know you are playing Garydos, I'm never playing a stadium. Now your damage is capped at 100 without Choice Band. It has negative scaling, meaning the longer the game goes on, the worse the deck is.

I'm not being pessimistic about the set, I'm being realistic. None of the cards in this set outside of Lusamine and Silvally GX will ever see competitive standard.

Ninetails was never a bad card because of it's costs because Aqua Patch exists. Relistically, you only need to use its second attack three times a game AT MOST, and even then probably not that many depending on your supporting pokemon. Everyone i talked to said it would take Lapras' spot in waterbox, so it had the support of Palkia EX, Glaceon EX, Manaphy EX, and Articuno. We assumed that's how the deck would be played, with a heavy focus on Vulpix to get set up. Now at the time i didn't think it would hit Tier 1 because Metagross and Garbodor were cards, but myself and everyone i talked to all thought it would see a lot of play because it was good.
 
Dragonite EX, Starmie, Brock's Grit, Psychic Mewtwo. That set was better. Quite literaly twice as good as Crimson Invasion because it only has 2 good cards compared to Evoluiton's 4.
Psychic Mewtwo: Lele is better.

Dragonite EX: Only good because of Mega Ray, which rotated.

Starmie: Starmie is good but isn't used outside of Volcanion and Greninja.

Brock's Grit: Almost no one ever used this. Why is this even on your list?

However, SM4's good cards:

Mismagius: Chaos Wheel for one Energy is amazing and should see play with Garbodor and denial.

Counter Catcher: This card is so obviously good

Lusamine: This is a slower VS Seeker, but you can cycle them endlessly (Grab a Supporter/Stadium and another Lusamine) and it recovers Stadiums too. Not to mention VS Seeker rotated.

Buzzwole-GX and Kartana-GX: Neither is amazing but they are playable.

Gyarados-GX: If Gardey dies down a little bit this card could be the next Primal Groudon.

Sivally-GX: If we get Memories for the other types, then run it with STS Weavile and whatever type Memories you need to hit the current meta for Weakness.
 
Dragonite EX, Starmie, Brock's Grit, Psychic Mewtwo. That set was better.
Psychic Mewtwo: Lele is better.

Dragonite EX: Only good because of Mega Ray, which rotated.

Starmie: Starmie is good but isn't used outside of Volcanion and Greninja.

Brock's Grit: Almost no one ever used this. Why is this even on your list?

However, SM4's good cards:

Mismagius: Chaos Wheel for one Energy is amazing and should see play with Garbodor and denial.

Counter Catcher: This card is so obviously good

Lusamine: This is a slower VS Seeker, but you can cycle them endlessly (Grab a Supporter/Stadium and another Lusamine) and it recovers Stadiums too. Not to mention VS Seeker rotated.

Buzzwole-GX and Kartana-GX: Neither is amazing but they are playable.

Gyarados-GX: If Gardey dies down a little bit this card could be the next Primal Groudon.

Sivally-GX: If we get Memories for the other types, then run it with STS Weavile and whatever type Memories you need to hit the current meta for Weakness.
Dragonite was still good for how many months on realease?

Starmie is still in two top tier decks. (which is my point)

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't Tapu-Bulu, a very good Tier 2 deck use this?

Mismagius is bad. What decks will its first attack ACTUALLY stall out? And it's second attack will almost never see damage above 120.

The counter cards are bad because they can only be played from behind. Which means any match-up you have winning odds against, its dead.

Lusamine and Sivally GX are the two good cards, which i've mentioned countless times, but thanks for actually reading my posts.

What GOOD match-up does Buzzwole have right now that?

Kartana is bad for reasons ive explained in previous posts.

Garydos i also explained why he's bad in previous posts.
 
I had it attached to the OP. It was up when you wrote the message.

Didn't see it.

Dragonite EX, Starmie, Brock's Grit, Psychic Mewtwo. That set was better. Quite literaly twice as good as Crimson Invasion because it only has 2 good cards compared to Evoluiton's 4.

Please, no one uses Dragonite EX or Mewtwo. And this set has way more card with potential to be good in the future, and just straight up has more good cards for right now than Evolutions does.

Dash Pouch is only good with Golosipod GX.

How do you figure? I'd say it's not even very good with Golisopod because you'd rather be running Choice Band, but can you really tell me that if you didn't need to play a tool card that you wouldn't want to keep your energy instead of discarding it? Like on Gardevoir?

Alolan Exeggutor GX is bad. Even if you pair it with Venasuar, you have to go 3 Grass energy deep to do the same amount of damage that Dragon Hammer does, 4 if you want do do more, all while having no energy acceleration what-so-ever. It doesn't have good match-ups into anything in the meta because its too slow.

A bench sniping move doesn't have to do insane amounts of damage to do insane amounts of damage... You can butter up the bench with Tapu Koko and then just constantly get bench snipes on important pieces. It's really not that slow because you can use DCE and Venusaur with it and easily have a Pokemon that does some pretty amazing damage turn 2-3. It has an amazing MU against a ton of set up deck IMO. Not Gardy because of the fairy weakness, but you better believe that VikaBulu doesn't love this card.

The Regi's are bad because you HAVE to have all of them on board to do anything meaningful. Registeel is the main attacker, but its energy cost for actual damage is too high and takes too long, plus you need multiple Regirocks for good damage. Regice does nothing for match-ups outside of Stage 2, it doesn't protect Regirock, and its attack does nothing. Regigas is god awful because of energy costs. And Regirock is a bench sitter that can be catchered out and has 3 retreat. I wouldnt put this deck in tier 6, its that bad.

None of what you've just said takes into account that all of these pokemon are single prize attackers. I'm not saying it's going to be Tier one, but could it be a solid Rogue? I think so.

The problem with Alolan Muk GX decks is that A, They aren't consistant. B, Nihilego GX helps one problem but makes two more problems. C, It doesn't have any kind of late game. You can't CONSISTENTLY get the status effects you need every turn you need them AND keep Muk on the board ready to go. Nihlego Affects your pokemon as well, so you HAVE to have Chaos Tower, which isn't searchable mind you, and reduces your consistency because its another card in your deck that doesn't add to your speed. Not to mention it's incredibly squishy so it's an easy target to OHKO and now you've given up two prizes. And the longer the game goes, the less resources you are going to have, so the less chance you have to hit all your moving pieces. That's why Alolan Muk GX is bad, because the deck is fundamentally bad.

Chaos Tower is 100% searchable... with Skyla. Plus add in Lusamine so if it get field blowered you can just get it back. Super Scoop Up and Acerola exist in the format. Plus Parallel City/ Rescue Stretcher/ Dragonite EX (since you mentioned it). You also don't HAVE to have Chaos Tower. It's incredibly useful yes, but you could play Pokemon Center Lady (searchable). You could use Switch or other similar cards. You've written off a deck for being too clunky but the top decks we have in the format right now are all on the clunkier side.

Buzzwole is the beast UB, but it's still outclassed by other things. It has a psychic weakness, so it autolose to Garbodor. It takes three turn to set up, meaning you need to Elixer it at least once, and use Sivally GX or Carbink BREAK to charge in one turn. Plus, once that one dies, you need to have a second one ready to go. And with 190 not being a hard number to hit in a lot of decks, you will lose the speed race, easily. "But you can soften things up with his first attack" why would you need to? He hits for 190 with a band, 210 with a strong energy. That's enough damage to OHKO any Basic/Stage 1 GX. You will never beat Metagross or Gardevoir because they can OHKO you too easy and you have no way to OHKO them back Unless you used his first attack a few times, which even then Max potion is a thing in both those decks, AND you dtill have to get him charged up. He's not as bad as the rest of the UB, but he's not good.

Metagross OHKOs a 190hp pokemon? How? Unless they run Kukui or Delhmise they can't... As for the Psychic weakness use Zygarde EX maybe? I don't think you're giving Buzzswole a proper shake. He's got potential and with Max Elixir and turn attachments he'll be ready to go turn two most of the time. Also you say he's the best UB... but all the UB haven't even been translated yet. We have Xurkitree, Pheramosa and Celesteele coming as promos.

Counter Catcher is bad for the same reason Counter Energy is bad. It only works from behind. Meaning if you're ahead, you have a dead card in your deck, and thats one less card per copy that is going to keep you ahead. If you have a 50-50 matchup or better against a deck, then out of 100 games, both counter cards are going to be deck at a minimum of 50 times. That's incredibly terrible. You need cards that are live at all times and against all match-ups.

Counter Catcher is good because it's literally Lysandre... in an item. Yes it has conditions, but if the conditions are met it's a silly good card.

Garydos GX has the same problem Garydos EX has, time. It takes SOOOOO long to set him up for any kind of good damage, Plus you have to have a stadium on board every turn, and if i know you are playing Garydos, I'm never playing a stadium. Now your damage is capped at 100 without Choice Band. It has negative scaling, meaning the longer the game goes on, the worse the deck is.

First of all... Aqua Patch. Plus you could run Palkia EX. And what do I care if you never play a stadium? I'll load my deck with my own. I'll use things like Parallel City to discard damaged or easy targets and then I'll just attack to remove the bench cap. Then next turn I'll Lusamine them (and a Lusamine) back.

I'm not being pessimistic about the set, I'm being realistic. None of the cards in this set outside of Lusamine and Silvally GX will ever see competitive standard.

You're not being realistic at all. You're taking a very narrow negative very with a set that A.) isn't complete, and B.) you haven't had a chance to playtest. And yeah it's not complete because when it comes over to the US we'll also be getting SM4+.

Brock's Grit: Almost no one ever used this. Why is this even on your list?

Probably because of VikaBulu?
 
I mean, the set isn't that bad. I'm just disappointed that Staraptor isn't any good. I think the main problem is they made Gardevoir-GX too good and everything else just dies. I'm looking forward to Kartana-GX just for the Ability but most sets now disappoint me since the things I'm looking for aren't in the set.
 
Everyone keeps talking about how Kartana is a searchable Enhanced Hammer. Let's put this into perspective. It's searchable by Ultra Ball. That's it. And it's not even a good enhanced hammer, because with its 170 hp, it can get steam rolled so easy. It's like enhanced hammer GX where you get to discard a special energy form your opponent, but they get to draw two prize cards. That's garbage. I'd rather just play enhanced hammer and deal with the very slightly worse Garbodor Matchup. Blade GX is so bad. Out of 100 games, how many times do you think you're A, going to have access to Kartana at one prize. B, have access to a Rainbow Energy at one prize. C, going to have the resources to make Kartana active with a Rainbow at one prize. It's a cool concept for a GX attack, but on someone like Kartana that you are NEVER going to attack with, it's bad.
Alolan Vulpix can also get Kartana. There's a risk of being N'd, but sometimes forcing an N can be awkward for the opponent. If Kartana gets dragged up front with Guzma or Counter Catcher, you have Acerola to take it back if it gets damaged.
 
Let's remember that not all cards are created for competition, nor are all cards immediately relevant right upon release.

I personally see SM4 as a set up for the giant Ultra Sun/Ultra Moon set we're getting afterwards. Granted it is Ultra Sun & Ultra Moon, I expect it to fully flush out the Ultra Beast line up and introduce the new Lunala & Solgaleo forms.

I'll cast my vote once we've seen all of SM5 or at least SM4+.
 
Didn't see it.



Please, no one uses Dragonite EX or Mewtwo. And this set has way more card with potential to be good in the future, and just straight up has more good cards for right now than Evolutions does.



How do you figure? I'd say it's not even very good with Golisopod because you'd rather be running Choice Band, but can you really tell me that if you didn't need to play a tool card that you wouldn't want to keep your energy instead of discarding it? Like on Gardevoir?



A bench sniping move doesn't have to do insane amounts of damage to do insane amounts of damage... You can butter up the bench with Tapu Koko and then just constantly get bench snipes on important pieces. It's really not that slow because you can use DCE and Venusaur with it and easily have a Pokemon that does some pretty amazing damage turn 2-3. It has an amazing MU against a ton of set up deck IMO. Not Gardy because of the fairy weakness, but you better believe that VikaBulu doesn't love this card.



None of what you've just said takes into account that all of these pokemon are single prize attackers. I'm not saying it's going to be Tier one, but could it be a solid Rogue? I think so.



Chaos Tower is 100% searchable... with Skyla. Plus add in Lusamine so if it get field blowered you can just get it back. Super Scoop Up and Acerola exist in the format. Plus Parallel City/ Rescue Stretcher/ Dragonite EX (since you mentioned it). You also don't HAVE to have Chaos Tower. It's incredibly useful yes, but you could play Pokemon Center Lady (searchable). You could use Switch or other similar cards. You've written off a deck for being too clunky but the top decks we have in the format right now are all on the clunkier side.



Metagross OHKOs a 190hp pokemon? How? Unless they run Kukui or Delhmise they can't... As for the Psychic weakness use Zygarde EX maybe? I don't think you're giving Buzzswole a proper shake. He's got potential and with Max Elixir and turn attachments he'll be ready to go turn two most of the time. Also you say he's the best UB... but all the UB haven't even been translated yet. We have Xurkitree, Pheramosa and Celesteele coming as promos.



Counter Catcher is good because it's literally Lysandre... in an item. Yes it has conditions, but if the conditions are met it's a silly good card.



First of all... Aqua Patch. Plus you could run Palkia EX. And what do I care if you never play a stadium? I'll load my deck with my own. I'll use things like Parallel City to discard damaged or easy targets and then I'll just attack to remove the bench cap. Then next turn I'll Lusamine them (and a Lusamine) back.



You're not being realistic at all. You're taking a very narrow negative very with a set that A.) isn't complete, and B.) you haven't had a chance to playtest. And yeah it's not complete because when it comes over to the US we'll also be getting SM4+.



Probably because of VikaBulu?
No one uses them ANYMORE because they came out with cards that do the job better. Mewtwo was a good answer to decks that energy stacked because it was a one prize attacker (Played in Xerneas BREAK a lot for example), Now we have Tapu-Lele GX. And upon release, Dragonite was a staple in M-Rayquaza.

I'm only saying Golisopod because of the reset on the pokmeon and the effect of First Impression. You only need one or two Golisopod to be Banded, so you can use one Golisopod as a First Impression reset that does 120, then dash pouch next turn into the banded one for 150 for a total of 270. It's not hard to see that the card would be good with Golisopod. And Gardevoir would rather be banded. You would never put pouch on it. If you need to reset it, which you shouldnt have too more than once, use acerola.

A bench sniping move that NEEDS venesuar and NEEDS at least 3 Grass energy to do any kind of meaningful damage to a bench pokemon. And even then its only 120 damage. Which is only enough to 2HKO. You would need three Tapu-koko hits, and get venusuar, AND get three energy on Alolan to OHKO a big basic. That's minimum 4 Turns of set up. Which any deck in the game right now can outspeed. What deck would have a bad matchup against this? Like honestly? Garb would have a great matchup because you will go through a ton of items getting all of your moving pieces set up (only needs 9 items and a band to OHKO) Plus it turns off Venusuar. Metagross and Gard both out speed the deck. Alolan Ninetails can 2HKO you all day long, and OHKO venusuar. VikaBulu OHKO's you with Choice Band. What match up do you have that's good?

Lol the single prize attackers doesn't mean anything, because you will never kill anything. Notice how all the Single prize attackers we have now can OHKO the big EX/GX every turn with almost no set up. They can take the 2 for 1 prize trade all day because they will win it. How is a registeel, that CAN'T OHKO BIG BASICS, going to win the 2 for 1 prize trade. Tell me that. Are you going to use regirock? good luck with the energy accelration before his tiny 130 HP gets One shot by literally everything in the meta. The regis are not a rogue deck. they are simply bad. they have too heavy of a reliance on each other to be good.

Ok, so let me get this straight. You are going to set up your muk gx, get the three status conditions it will take to OHKO a Stage 1 or 2 GX, have the chaos tower, or have a second muk you can switch to, or have two switch cards to reset your only muk...with 60 cards, every turn, before your opponent gets set up...be honest, out of 100 games, how many times are you going to be able to pull that off enough to win a game against any meta deck. Keep in mind that EVERY meta deck can 2HKO you, and some can OHKO you. Not to mention they can pretty much ALL OHKO Nihilego for a free two prizes.

Most Metagross players play one Dhelmise...they need it for the 190 big basics, and for the 210 Kukui play...Not to mention some run either a 1-of Genesect EX which can OHKO with a band, or Necrozma GX, which can ohko you with a band. It's called adapting to the meta.

Lol, you literally just said my point as to why buzzwole isn't that good. How to deal with Psychic weakness on Buzzwole: Don't play it.

Are the other three UB's in this set? No? Ok, then they don't matter.

Again, for the THIRD TIME. The counter cards are bad, because they only work from behind. Meaning if you have a 50-50 matchup or better, out of 100 games, a minimum of 50 games the counter cards are going to be useless. That's a terrible ratio.

Ok, so first of all, its main attack is 5 energy, so it will die instantly to Gardevoir. It will lose the prize trade against metagross because of max potion. It loses to Garb becaue of how many cards you need for the set up. It's bad because it's too expensive, too slow, and Ninetails and Lapras are just better.

Ok, let's talk about Kartana GX. You all say it's ability is SOOOOO good, but fail to realize that discarding ONE special energy, which most decks don't even care about, is not worth losing two prizes to every meta deck that can OHKO it with almost no set up. Not to mention it's a dead card against things like Darkrai, Metagross, Fire variants, and Tapu-Bulu variants. If Enhaced Hammer was so important in the current meta, people would be playing it right now before we get Kartana. Drampa, Golisopod, Tapu-Bulu, Metagross, Turtonator, Ho-oh, Volcanian EX, Ninetails, and Lapras can all OHKO it with and without Choice Band respectively. Also notice how about 6 of those cards are sitting in the Tier 1-2 spot, and Kartana's ability can't hit those six. Blade GX is such an obscure attack. Think about it like this: Take 100 games against a deck that you have a 50-50 match up into, subtract 50 for your loses (you can change this number to fit the match-up), subtract the amount of times you can win without Kartana, subtract the amount of times you prize Kartana, don't draw Kartana, Kartana gets KO'd, don't have an energy for the GX attack, how many times you won't be in that 1 prize position, and finally how many times you've used a different GX attack that game. Then look at that number you have left. That number, out of 100, is how useful Kartana's GX attack is.

SM4+ would have to be absolutely insane to make up for how BAD this set is. This is how the community has responded to my criticism for this set: The UB in this set are bad>"They'll get support in the set, just wait">No support in the set>"Just wait til next set." or Only two cards have potential in competitive standard.>"No, all these cards have potential in this obscure situation that will only happen once every 100 games.">But 1 out of 100 is bad>"You're just being too negative"
 
No one uses them ANYMORE because they came out with cards that do the job better. Mewtwo was a good answer to decks that energy stacked because it was a one prize attacker (Played in Xerneas BREAK a lot for example), Now we have Tapu-Lele GX. And upon release, Dragonite was a staple in M-Rayquaza.

I'm only saying Golisopod because of the reset on the pokmeon and the effect of First Impression. You only need one or two Golisopod to be Banded, so you can use one Golisopod as a First Impression reset that does 120, then dash pouch next turn into the banded one for 150 for a total of 270. It's not hard to see that the card would be good with Golisopod. And Gardevoir would rather be banded. You would never put pouch on it. If you need to reset it, which you shouldnt have too more than once, use acerola.

A bench sniping move that NEEDS venesuar and NEEDS at least 3 Grass energy to do any kind of meaningful damage to a bench pokemon. And even then its only 120 damage. Which is only enough to 2HKO. You would need three Tapu-koko hits, and get venusuar, AND get three energy on Alolan to OHKO a big basic. That's minimum 4 Turns of set up. Which any deck in the game right now can outspeed. What deck would have a bad matchup against this? Like honestly? Garb would have a great matchup because you will go through a ton of items getting all of your moving pieces set up (only needs 9 items and a band to OHKO) Plus it turns off Venusuar. Metagross and Gard both out speed the deck. Alolan Ninetails can 2HKO you all day long, and OHKO venusuar. VikaBulu OHKO's you with Choice Band. What match up do you have that's good?

Lol the single prize attackers doesn't mean anything, because you will never kill anything. Notice how all the Single prize attackers we have now can OHKO the big EX/GX every turn with almost no set up. They can take the 2 for 1 prize trade all day because they will win it. How is a registeel, that CAN'T OHKO BIG BASICS, going to win the 2 for 1 prize trade. Tell me that. Are you going to use regirock? good luck with the energy accelration before his tiny 130 HP gets One shot by literally everything in the meta. The regis are not a rogue deck. they are simply bad. they have too heavy of a reliance on each other to be good.

Ok, so let me get this straight. You are going to set up your muk gx, get the three status conditions it will take to OHKO a Stage 1 or 2 GX, have the chaos tower, or have a second muk you can switch to, or have two switch cards to reset your only muk...with 60 cards, every turn, before your opponent gets set up...be honest, out of 100 games, how many times are you going to be able to pull that off enough to win a game against any meta deck. Keep in mind that EVERY meta deck can 2HKO you, and some can OHKO you. Not to mention they can pretty much ALL OHKO Nihilego for a free two prizes.

Most Metagross players play one Dhelmise...they need it for the 190 big basics, and for the 210 Kukui play...Not to mention some run either a 1-of Genesect EX which can OHKO with a band, or Necrozma GX, which can ohko you with a band. It's called adapting to the meta.

Lol, you literally just said my point as to why buzzwole isn't that good. How to deal with Psychic weakness on Buzzwole: Don't play it.

Are the other three UB's in this set? No? Ok, then they don't matter.

Again, for the THIRD TIME. The counter cards are bad, because they only work from behind. Meaning if you have a 50-50 matchup or better, out of 100 games, a minimum of 50 games the counter cards are going to be useless. That's a terrible ratio.

Ok, so first of all, its main attack is 5 energy, so it will die instantly to Gardevoir. It will lose the prize trade against metagross because of max potion. It loses to Garb becaue of how many cards you need for the set up. It's bad because it's too expensive, too slow, and Ninetails and Lapras are just better.

Ok, let's talk about Kartana GX. You all say it's ability is SOOOOO good, but fail to realize that discarding ONE special energy, which most decks don't even care about, is not worth losing two prizes to every meta deck that can OHKO it with almost no set up. Not to mention it's a dead card against things like Darkrai, Metagross, Fire variants, and Tapu-Bulu variants. If Enhaced Hammer was so important in the current meta, people would be playing it right now before we get Kartana. Drampa, Golisopod, Tapu-Bulu, Metagross, Turtonator, Ho-oh, Volcanian EX, Ninetails, and Lapras can all OHKO it with and without Choice Band respectively. Also notice how about 6 of those cards are sitting in the Tier 1-2 spot, and Kartana's ability can't hit those six. Blade GX is such an obscure attack. Think about it like this: Take 100 games against a deck that you have a 50-50 match up into, subtract 50 for your loses (you can change this number to fit the match-up), subtract the amount of times you can win without Kartana, subtract the amount of times you prize Kartana, don't draw Kartana, Kartana gets KO'd, don't have an energy for the GX attack, how many times you won't be in that 1 prize position, and finally how many times you've used a different GX attack that game. Then look at that number you have left. That number, out of 100, is how useful Kartana's GX attack is.

SM4+ would have to be absolutely insane to make up for how BAD this set is. This is how the community has responded to my criticism for this set: The UB in this set are bad>"They'll get support in the set, just wait">No support in the set>"Just wait til next set." or Only two cards have potential in competitive standard.>"No, all these cards have potential in this obscure situation that will only happen once every 100 games.">But 1 out of 100 is bad>"You're just being too negative"
I highly disagree with the counter cards being bad. If anything, they encourage more cautious play from both sides. If one side takes an early lead, they could be subject to a timely Counter Catcher from the other. Before that, Ace Trainer was played in some decks for a turnaround. Granted, Ace Trainer wasn't used in every deck - it was mainly used in Greninja decks - but it was something to watch out for. In that case, both counter cards can be used in decks that can afford to lose a prize.

Have you noticed that Exeggutor has 220 HP? Banded Bulu misses the OHKO on a healthy one.

I don't see too many Metagross decks using Dhelmise. I get that it helps hit the numbers, but it takes up valuable bench space. Christopher Schemanske, one of the first people who used a Metagross deck, even admitted that Dhelmise was one of the weak links in his deck.

Not using a card in a specific matchup isn't the same as not using it at all. You do realize this, right? I'll use Volcanion decks as an example. Ho-oh GX was written off for having very expensive attacks, but it's found a home in Volcanion decks as a 1- or 2-of when Kiawe was revealed, because of its synergy with Steam Up. If you start with Ho-oh and energize it with Kiawe turn 1, that's cool. The other reason why it was included was because it wasn't weak to Water, but to Electric. If you're up against a Water deck, that's when you try to bust out Ho-oh and start swinging from there so the Water matchup isn't a complete auto loss.

I get that Crimson Invasion is underwhelming for some people, but don't you think you're being way too critical? Wait for the play testing to come around because Crimson Invasion isn't even physically out yet (it's only a day or two from now). You can't assume that cards are terrible at first glance, hence, let the Japanese players playtest the cards before making a final, absolute judgment (the point I made in your last thread). The saying, "Don't knock it until you try it" especially applies to this situation. And you've been knocking on Crimson Invasion way too hard when no one even has physical copies of the cards yet (or hasn't gotten around making proxies).
 
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From a competitive point of view the two cards that stand out are Silvally GX because he is rather versatile. He also has a dcent GX attack that can draw prizes rather fast nowadays and can be used as a fighting attacker in a meta that is not all too kind to fighting types at the moment due to Garbodor and Golisopod GX. The other one not mentioned thus far is Gorgeist. This card can have potential from my point of view. Surprised that Gorgeist has not been mentioned thus far.
 
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