Discussion Speculative - A Ban List for the TCG?

[jessalakasam]

So TPCi announced that a ban list is coming to Pokemon so which cards will get banned. As of right now expanded is being closely monitored, while they're not really looking at standard. Also keep in mind that the next bans will be at the rotation meaning PRC-BKT (just to stay safe) will likely be looked at.

Trevenant (XY): This card is very annoying to all players, and the fact that it can easily beat darkness (its weakness) shows just how unhealthy this card can be to the format

Battle Compressor: This card helps decks like Night March, since it wouldn't make sense to ban Joltiks, Pumpkaboo, and Lampent, this will basically kill of NM

Archeops (NVI & DEX): This card basically makes a lot of decks impossible to use.

FoGP: Helps T1 Lock which is never fun!


What do you guys think will be banned?

 

[ZephyrFox12]

I think all of your reasons are spot on, do we have any idea when their banlist will be announced?

 

[jessalakasam]

I think all of your reasons are spot on, do we have any idea when their banlist will be announced?

Well the first bans are supposed to be July 21st, although it could be a minor rule change like this month's

 

[Fayld]

So TPCi announced that a ban list is coming to Pokemon so which cards will get banned. As of right now expanded is being closely monitored, while they're not really looking at standard. Also keep in mind that the next bans will be at the rotation meaning PRC-BKT (just to stay safe) will likely be looked at.

Trevenant (XY): This card is very annoying to all players, and the fact that it can easily beat darkness (its weakness) shows just how unhealthy this card can be to the format

Battle Compressor: This card helps decks like Night March, since it wouldn't make sense to ban Joltiks, Pumpkaboo, and Lampent, this will basically kill of NM

Archeops (NVI & DEX): This card basically makes a lot of decks impossible to use.

FoGP: Helps T1 Lock which is never fun!


What do you guys think will be banned?

I didn't read that more cards were being banned. I read that cards are being monitored. TBH, I don't think any cards on your list will be banned, but if anything is I think it would likely be Archeops and FoGP. There might be a possibility of Seismitoad or Sableye being banned, but I honestly don't think either will be. The main reason why I think those two cards might go is because they can provide decisive advantages on T1 before an opponent has even had a chance to play the game. That said, I don't think either will go because neither card completely stops the meta. Archeops can be played around with some ease (just not for those FoGP decks lol) because most decks that have evolutions in expanded are running some combination of Hex, Wally, and Evosoda with Archeops in mind specifically and is completely worthless against decks like Volcanion, Turbo Darkrai, Dark Dragons, etc. As for FoGP, T1 Archeops is the most effective counter, but it is far from the only one. There are decks that flat out hard counter the T1 plume that have been around for a long time now (Accelgor Wobb, Primal Groudon, etc.). In addition to this, the FoGP decks really struggle when they miss that T1 stadium.

The reason I don't think Trevenant will be banned is because it *doesn't* easily beat darkness decks. I play against this using Dark Toads pretty regularly and I don't remember losing to it. The weakness absolutely obliterates this deck. Don't get me wrong, the deck can be very frustrating to play against and the T1 lock does the same thing as the two cards above are able to accomplish (create a decided advantage before your opponent gets a turn), but it bricks often enough that it is a risky play. And when it bricks, it is obliterated (in contrast to the decks running FoGP / Archeops which usually have enough alternate options that they can recover from missing the T1 lock)

Battle Compressor is a main component in way too many expanded deck lists for it to go anywhere I think and honestly I don't think the card is all that damaging to the expanded meta.

I don't think the expanded meta is healthy by any stretch, but I also don't know that I think banning these cards is the way to go. There isn't a single deck in the meta where I see it and instantly think "nothing beats that." There are also a ton of deck lists that are competitive (far more than in Standard) with some of them being *very* difficult to beat. For example, if Accelgor / Wobb was easier to assemble, I think a lot more people would play it and a lot more people would complain about it because far fewer decks in expanded use switch cards like Escape Rope / Olympia. There is a lot heavier reliance on Keldeo / Darkrai to retreat out / reset conditions.

Anyway, sorry for the book. I guess to sum up, I don't think anything will be banned right now because I don't think anything is overpowered enough to be considered meta defining. TBH, if anything could be banned, I think FoGP should be banned in the STANDARD format because Deciplume is just that ridiculous. I also think there is a high likelihood that they revisit that new Trashalanche Garbodor card in the next year or so. I think that has the potential to create some real issues.

 

[TheGuardian118]

@Fayld, Archeops does prevent Rare Candy since it comes from hand. If the Evolution is in your hand, you can't use it. If it's in the deck you can.

This is directly from the official compendium:

Q. Does Rare Candy override evolution-preventing effects such as Archeops' "Ancient Power" Ability?
A. Ancient Power does not allow you to use a Pokemon's attack or play a Trainer card to evolve your Benched or Active Pokemon, unless the Evolution card you would be putting into play comes from somewhere other than your hand. So Rare Candy cannot be used while Archeops' Ancient Power Ability is in effect. (Noble Victories FAQ; Nov 17, 2011 PUI Rules Team; Nov 21, 2011 PUI Rules Team)

Everything else you wrote is good though!

 

[Fayld]

@Fayld, Archeops does prevent Rare Candy since it comes from hand. If the Evolution is in your hand, you can't use it. If it's in the deck you can.

This is directly from the official compendium:

Q. Does Rare Candy override evolution-preventing effects such as Archeops' "Ancient Power" Ability?
A. Ancient Power does not allow you to use a Pokemon's attack or play a Trainer card to evolve your Benched or Active Pokemon, unless the Evolution card you would be putting into play comes from somewhere other than your hand. So Rare Candy cannot be used while Archeops' Ancient Power Ability is in effect. (Noble Victories FAQ; Nov 17, 2011 PUI Rules Team; Nov 21, 2011 PUI Rules Team)

Everything else you wrote is good though!

That's interesting because they gave out a different ruling on an earlier statement. Bah. Oh well. Can't get them all

Revising my other post so it doesn't confuse anyone

 

[Elray]

TPCi wanted a slower meta, so they gave us Garbodor.

I think that the only cards worth banning are Vileplume and Archeops. FoGP shouldn't be banned since it is an integral part of many decks that wouldn't be competitive without that card. When people say what annoys them the most in this game they will likely say T1 item lock. Banning Vileplume gets rid of the problem, banning FoGP mostly gets rid of the problem and lots of other stuff that isn't a problem.

 

[Fayld]

TPCi wanted a slower meta, so they gave us Garbodor.

I think that the only cards worth banning are Vileplume and Archeops. FoGP shouldn't be banned since it is an integral part of many decks that wouldn't be competitive without that card. When people say what annoys them the most in this game they will likely say T1 item lock. Banning Vileplume gets rid of the problem, banning FoGP mostly gets rid of the problem and lots of other stuff that isn't a problem.

You make a good point here and thinking about it more, I would also prefer a Plume ban over a FoGP ban. There aren't a ton of basic grass type pokemon out there that can really carry a deck alone. About the only one I can think of off the top of my head is Sceptile EX AOR style and even that one would probably be better off being paired with something else to make a viable deck. Basically, I think Pokemon has built the entire grass type around FoGP and speedy evolutions at the core. It really makes me wonder what they are going to do with Grass as a type once FoGP rotates.

 

[jessalakasam]

I don't think Accelgor is that unbeatable honestly with a ton of counters like Magearna and comfey, while Trevenant if they wanted could tech in a policy to beat dark :/

 

[Fayld]

I don't think Accelgor is that unbeatable honestly with a ton of counters like Magearna and comfey, while Trevenant if they wanted could tech in a policy to beat dark :/

Except most decks aren't able to / can't easily run Magearna / Comfey while still remaining effective against the rest of the explosive expanded meta. That's like saying "just run Virizion." Awesome. Hope you have the grass energy needed to make it work while not getting railed by every other deck In reality, the most effective and wide spread counter is Lysandre + Keldeo, but even that only guarantees you a turn.

Thing is, I am not saying it is some unbeatable deck. It doesn't have to be for people to absolutely loathe it. Trevenant is far from unbeatable, but I hate that deck. Greninja isn't unbeatable, but I hate that deck. Quad Lapras isn't unbeatable, but I absolutely want to scream every time I play against it. Every. Time. Well, if Accelgor Wobbuffet was as common as any of those decks, there would be tons of people adding it to the list of decks that they absolutely hate. Getting out of paralysis a couple times is something most decks can pull off. Getting out of it 8+ times while ability locked and getting 30 ticks of poison every half turn? Not so easy and 100% anger inducing LOL!

 

[jessalakasam]

Except most decks aren't able to / can't easily run Magearna / Comfey while still remaining effective against the rest of the explosive expanded meta. That's like saying "just run Virizion." Awesome. Hope you have the grass energy needed to make it work while not getting railed by every other deck In reality, the most effective and wide spread counter is Lysandre + Keldeo, but even that only guarantees you a turn.

Thing is, I am not saying it is some unbeatable deck. It doesn't have to be for people to absolutely loathe it. Trevenant is far from unbeatable, but I hate that deck. Greninja isn't unbeatable, but I hate that deck. Quad Lapras isn't unbeatable, but I absolutely want to scream every time I play against it. Every. Time. Well, if Accelgor Wobbuffet was as common as any of those decks, there would be tons of people adding it to the list of decks that they absolutely hate. Getting out of paralysis a couple times is something most decks can pull off. Getting out of it 8+ times while ability locked and getting 30 ticks of poison every half turn? Not so easy and 100% anger inducing LOL!

I run Vilebox so I run prism but yeah I can see why some players can hate it :/

 

[crystal_pidgeot]

I would ban cards that are unhealthy for the game and promote unskillful play. There are a many cards I don't think deserve a hard ban and could just be limited. In combination with this and a side deck mechanic, we could have a solid game.

I would ban these cards.

Ban Expanded

The cards you said above are fine
Hypnotoxic Lazer - Card is way too powerful and makes games more luck based then they need to be.


Ban Standard

FoGP - Makes the grass type too powerful and promotes lock decks, which prevents play.
Sky Field - Makes certain decks too powerful and hard to play around.
Max Elixir - Makes the speed of the game too fast and scaling decks too powerful.
Crushing Hammer - No one likes losing to coin flips


Restricted Standard

Shaymin-EX - One per deck seems fine
Professor Sycamore - Not as powerful if you can only run one copy.
Aqua Patch - Getting knockouts should be a reward and cards like this take that away.
N - It's time for him to go away.
VS Seeker - Resources should be managed and with the way the game is now, four of these in a deck makes the game a crap shoot


Some other cards I can't think of right now but FoGP should be banned and it should be banned because it could break future cards and could prevent them making more unique cards because of it. It's not healthy for the game and the only reason grass decks are good is because of it.

 

[AuraJackle]

Allot of decks that are easy to pilot and easy to win with Play heavy counts of battle compressor to make them great. It's probably the only card that should be banned. Especially because it hurts the possibility of a first turn trev,first turn vileplume, first turn 180 from night march,archeops and other maxie/archie plays. While I do enjoy maxie and archie being a thing not at the cost of how much bad battle compressor brings to expanded. Dark patch and aqua patch as well are pretty much broken with it as well

 

[jessalakasam]

I would ban cards that are unhealthy for the game and promote unskillful play. There are a many cards I don't think deserve a hard ban and could just be limited. In combination with this and a side deck mechanic, we could have a solid game.

I would ban these cards.

Ban Expanded

The cards you said above are fine
Hypnotoxic Lazer - Card is way too powerful and makes games more luck based then they need to be.


Ban Standard

FoGP - Makes the grass type too powerful and promotes lock decks, which prevents play.
Sky Field - Makes certain decks too powerful and hard to play around.
Max Elixir - Makes the speed of the game too fast and scaling decks too powerful.
Crushing Hammer - No one likes losing to coin flips


Restricted Standard

Shaymin-EX - One per deck seems fine
Professor Sycamore - Not as powerful if you can only run one copy.
Aqua Patch - Getting knockouts should be a reward and cards like this take that away.
N - It's time for him to go away.
VS Seeker - Resources should be managed and with the way the game is now, four of these in a deck makes the game a crap shoot


Some other cards I can't think of right now but FoGP should be banned and it should be banned because it could break future cards and could prevent them making more unique cards because of it. It's not healthy for the game and the only reason grass decks are good is because of it.

They said they aren't looking at standard RN however, TM, Sky Field, VS Seeker, and Shay will all have rotated by the next announcement

 

[Latte1504]

Hypnotoxic Lazer - Card is way too powerful and makes games more luck based then they need to be.

This card is effectively Choice Band, just more powerful 1/4 of the time. IMO, it is alright. It has also fallen out of favor, so there is not much of a point of banning it.

FoGP - Makes the grass type too powerful and promotes lock decks, which prevents play.

I totally agree.

Sky Field - Makes certain decks too powerful and hard to play around.

Could you please specify which decks? It is a rather general statement.

Max Elixir - Makes the speed of the game too fast and scaling decks too powerful.

This card can be very good at promoting strategies that aren't normally seen. I would not be unhappy to see it leave, though.

Crushing Hammer - No one likes losing to coin flips

In its current iteration, this is awful. I would love to see something like this card on a Stage 1, but with no flips. I think that would be balanced.

Shaymin-EX - One per deck seems fine

Most decks only play 2, so that they can make sure to play at least 1.

Professor Sycamore - Not as powerful if you can only run one copy.

How are you drawing cards?

N - It's time for him to go away.

Please give me a good way to shuffle-draw cards on the first turn.

Aqua Patch - Getting knockouts should be a reward and cards like this take that away.

This card is a resource by itself. If you blow through them early, you have none left.

VS Seeker - Resources should be managed and with the way the game is now, four of these in a deck makes the game a crap shoot

DCE did the same for SP decks. It is literally the same thing.

 

[crystal_pidgeot]

This card is effectively Choice Band, just more powerful 1/4 of the time. IMO, it is alright. It has also fallen out of favor, so there is not much of a point of banning it.

People don't like the card because of what the sleep flips did to the game. Turns the game luck based. It's not the poison part people have a problem with (though it was annoying), it's how sleep flips affected the match.

I totally agree.

Could you please specify which decks? It is a rather general statement.

Pretty much any Sky Field deck, mostly Mega Ray.

This card can be very good at promoting strategies that aren't normally seen. I would not be unhappy to see it leave, though.

Like what? Trainer based energy acceleration is never a good idea. Perhaps if the game wasn't so draw heavy but this card makes plays unpredictable and can lead to donks, which the game doesn't need.

In its current iteration, this is awful. I would love to see something like this card on a Stage 1, but with no flips. I think that would be balanced.

This card isn't awful. We also have E Hammer, Team Skull/Flare Grunt. Four cards (Trainers) in standard discard Energy and that is way too many. It's the only reason quad decks work.

Most decks only play 2, so that they can make sure to play at least 1.

Yeah, but now they get only one. That is four less cards they can see a turn.

How are you drawing cards?

Professor Birch's Observations, Hala, Hau, A. Sandslash + Mallow, Lillie, Shauna and some others I can't remember right now (there are plenty of options).

Please give me a good way to shuffle-draw cards on the first turn.

Look above.

This card is a resource by itself. If you blow through them early, you have none left.

They should have learned from Dark Patch.

DCE did the same for SP decks. It is literally the same thing.

Sure, which is why I believe DCE should have been for Colorless Pokemon to makeup for the fact they can't hit for weakness but lets be real here. SP (and I assume you mean LuxChomp) was good because of its ability to shut down Poke-Powers, heal and sniping ability while being fast, thanks to the SP engine. DCE wasn't really what broke the deck but LuxChomp didn't have the cards that exist now.

 

[Latte1504]

Pretty much any Sky Field deck, mostly Mega Ray.

All of these decks are controllable.

Like what?

Anything that costs more than 2 colored energy.

Yeah, but now they get only one. That is four less cards they can see a turn.

So you are going to punish a player if they randomly prize a Shaymin?

Look above.

Which of these is good?

They should have learned from Dark Patch.

Then why isn't Dark Patch on your ban-list?

DCE wasn't really what broke the deck but LuxChomp didn't have the cards that exist now.

Then why wasn't there a Chomp in LuxChomp?

Professor Birch's Observations, Hala, Hau, A. Sandslash + Mallow, Lillie, Shauna and some others I can't remember right now (there are plenty of options).

Most of these are inconsistent or draw too few cards too be used in the combo-heavy game we are and are staying in.

 

[crystal_pidgeot]

All of these decks are controllable.

How so?

Anything that costs more than 2 colored energy.

Not sure what the context is here.

So you are going to punish a player if they randomly prize a Shaymin?

The prizes balance it out. You might not have the one-of in your deck. Not any different than prizing an Ace Spec at that point.

Which of these is good?

They are all good.

Then why isn't Dark Patch on your ban-list?

Because I forgot to put it there.

Then why wasn't there a Chomp in LuxChomp?

LuxChomp stands for Luxray and Garchomp.

Most of these are inconsistent or draw too few cards too be used in the combo-heavy game we are and are staying in.

The idea is to move away from the game we have now for something else.

 

[ZephyrFox12]

After thinking about it for awhile I think the only card worth actually banning is FOGP.

Archeops- While this card can win games the second it's put to the bench there are only 2 decks that can really use it, one of them not even being seen very often (Yveltal Maxie and the less played Aerodactyl Talonflame). In both decks Archeops is the end piece of of combo, something that can take your entire turn or hand to set up in contrast to a card like FOGP which you can just trainer mail for and simply and quite literally place to the board with ease.

Battle Compressor- While the card may have annoying cookie cutter combos (if you can even call it that) in decks like Night March and Vespi, in other decks it is the core piece to the set-up of many decks. Being able to set up a Archie/Maxie, ditching a Pokemon/Supporter to Rescue Stretcher/VS Seeker back or just to tin your deck out before you use a Sycamore. For a card with such a simple effect it stands as the definitive go-to staple item for every deck as a one-of at the least. It's quite literally the backbone of the expanded format, it should'nt be banned for that, if anything it should get a rarity bump or something.

Trevenant- This is a card I feel 50/50 on. On paper, the card reeks of undeserved advantage, the fact that it only locks out your opponent, the fact that there's literally a supporter that lets you evolve turn 1 and etc (the list could probably go on). However, from my experience playing the deck it's pretty lackluster for what it does. The deck reliant on a coin flip to even attempt to gain advantage, on top of that the deck has some of the worse bricks I've ever seen since Greninja. The deck almost always loses to dark, something expanded is full of, especially if they go first. I think Trevenant as a card could be ban worthy, but the amount of Dark in expanded and the deck's inherit ability to brick at the worse times makes me think this card just dodges a ban.

Sky Field- Never looked at this card as ever needing to be banned, the only deck that really seems to use it is M-Ray, a deck that already struggles against Paralell City and now Sudowudo. I don't see the card as unfair or ban worthy because while it may seem unfair that M-Ray can shoot for 240 turn 1, Sky Field gives the same advantage to both players.

Max Elixir- A card that seems to get seemingly more popular each day. Any card that can give additional non-manual energy attachments will always be sought after in the meta game. The card is dependent on luck to an extent, while 1 player may hit all 4, another player may get none. If the card read something along the lines of "Attach a basic energy from your deck to one of your benched Pokemon" then I would argue it should be banned. But the fact that it can miss or "whiff" makes the card balanced and makes a low risk high reward kind of card.

Crushing Hammer- I feel that this is one of the most fair cards the game has to offer, no need to ban it, buff it or even errata it. Like elixir, it's a card that can whiff, except in this case 50% of the time (or in my case 75% of the time). Not once have I ever caught myself nor anyone for that matter say "Hammer is too GUD, BAN IT" or something even cringier like "DUDE, CRUSHING HAMMER IS OP DUDE". It's only played in energy denial decks and as a 4-of because it's too unreliable for non-denial decks and it's risk is too much of a burden in it's not ran at 4.

Patches, Sycamore, N, VS Seeker and Shaymin- Limit? Ban? I don't think any of these deserve limitations nor bans. These cards may be seen often but it's for good reason, these cards the common staples of the current meta game (the patches on thier respective decks). In Yu-Gi-Oh there was the Bottomless Trap Hole effect when it came to the construction and revisions of the the banlist, Bottomless Trap Hole (BTH) was a 3-of (max in Yu-Gi-Oh) staple of it's time on what was the 2nd era of the game, do like 2006ish? The card limited to 1 because almost everyone would play 3 copies of it in any deck they could, over time other cards have had the same thing happen to them, most recently Max "C". Yu-Gi-Oh/Komami saw cards that were constantly being played all over as a bad thing so they decided to take that amount away from players, forcing those extra slots to be filled with something different. TPCi sees it differently from what I can see, instead of looking at highly played cards as a negative thing and trying to limit them they do the opposite, they give them new prints and alternate arts. Sycamore got a Full Art in a set it didn't even debut or have a common reprint in and now in our next battle deck it gets another art. N has multiple arts throughout the BW series (including a full art) and it was reprinted in Fates Collide and gets another full art on best of Xy. Aqua Patch and vs seeker both have Secret Rare prints. And lastly, when Shaymin was everywhere and in high demand, RS was physically reprinted to put more

 

[Nyora]

A card normally gets banned when it's way too powerful and literally makes people play only decks that can counter it, like Shiftry, as it forced some people to actually run Wobuffet/Baltoy, as otherwise they probably lost. Lysandre's Trump Card got banned because it forced some games to go on way longer than they should have. Normally these cards are deemed "not fun" as well. FoGP is by no means a "not fun" card and doesn't break the meta. If your really worried about T1 item lock ban Vileplume or the card that loves it. After all, they could've banned FoGP instead of Shiftry, as it was causing the problem. I don't think any cards should be banned right now, the meta is actually quite healthy.