Ruling Splash/Extra Damage When Active Pokemon is Immune

S

Spiffo

Aspiring Trainer
Member
Hey professors! First-time poster, I just got into the pokemon TCG about a year ago with the wife, and I'm looking for some rules clarifications about extra attack text when the active pokemon takes no damage.

It's my understanding that if an attack targets the active pokemon and does no damage, then other effects of the attack don't apply. Like, the attack didn't land or was blocked, so the other stuff doesn't work too. I got this impression from the rulebook pdf over on warpcore (link)

Under 603.4 Resolving an attack, it goes "Calculate Damage", and then later "Apply Damage" and then "If the attack has any other effects (that have not already been resolved), resolve those effects.

and under Calculating Attack Damage, it says "If at the end of any step of the damage calculation, the attack damage has become less than or equal to zero, the attack does zero damage and the calculation ends immediately".




Scenario 1 - Does blocking active pokemon block the extra bench damage as well:

My opponent has Mega Blastoise EX in play, and I have Suicune in play. My opponent wants to use Hydro Bombard, but Safeguard protects me. Would the extra bench damage in the card text apply anyway?

There was a thread about this recently actually, and they said that Yes, the bench pokemon would take damage because Safeguard only protects the active pokemon.

However, it was my understanding that if the damage done to the active pokemon is zero, the extra effects of the move do not apply. ie: electric tail's "flip to paralyze" cannot paralyze if it hits for zero damage in the first place (like if Hard Charm stops it). Doesn't Hydro Bombard's bench damage fall under the same thing? No damage to active pokemon = attack is over? Or does the extra stuff break through under some clause I'm not aware of?

Scans (click for big):
M-Blastoise EX

[W][W][W] Hydro Bombard 120
This attack does 30 damage to 2 of your opponent's Benched Pokémon. (Don't apply Weakness and Resistance for Benched Pokémon.)

Suicune

Ability: Safeguard
Prevent all effects of attacks, including damage, done to this pokemon by Pokemon-EX.

Scenario 2 - Beedrills and Hard Charms:

I've got Plasma Freeze Beedrill, and he's got a move Swift Sting, which does 20+ damage. If it's at full health, it does an extra 40 damage and poison and confusion. Sick nasty. My question is about extra effects: is that treated like 20, then 40+other stuff? Or is it treated as 60 + other stuff?

This is like the Blastoise question. Again, it's my understanding that if an attack does zero damage, then you don't get to apply the extra effects of the card. Would a hard charm (reduces damage by 20) stop all that nasty stuff from happening? The hit is either worth 40 now (if that extra stuff is lumped in) or it's worth zero (if that extra stuff doesn't get to apply).

Which is it? I have no idea. I'd guess it goes through because of the + on the 20+, suggesting it's lumped in.

Scans (click pic and it gets bigger):
Beeeeeees

[G] Swift Sting 20+
If this Pokémon has full HP, this attack does 40 more damage, and the Defending Pokémon is now Confused and Poisoned.

Hard Charm

Any damage done to the Pokémon this card is attached to by an opponent's attack is reduced by 20 (after applying Weakness and Resistance).


Scenario 3 - Same as the first one, but hard charm instead of safeguard:

I got Legendary Treasures Stunfisk. I use Muddy Water, which does 20 to the active, 20 to the bench. Opponent has a hard charm. What happens? Does the bench damage get through, or did Stunfisk stop it?

Scans (clicky):
Stunfisk

[F] Muddy Water 20
Does 20 damage to 1 of your opponent's Benched Pokémon. (Don't apply Weakness and Resistance for Benched Pokémon.)

Hard Charm Again

Any damage done to the Pokémon this card is attached to by an opponent's attack is reduced by 20 (after applying Weakness and Resistance).


Anyway, I appreciate you taking the time to read this long thread. Can you let me know what would happen under each question, and also why? I'm hazy on when the additional card text is considered part of the damage, and when it's considered an "effect" of the card that can be stopped.
 
My best way to answer all of these questions at once is to say you are wrong to assume that attacks resulting in no damage lose all their effects. That is not the case at all. Like you said, when a pokemon attacks, the sequence is as follows: Damage is calculated, damage is applied, and then other unresolved effects are resolved. Yes, if the damage calculates to 0 or lower, damage calculation (and by extension application) ends immediately. However, that only means that the damage step ends. The part about applying effects still happens regardless of damage, unless stated otherwise.

For your first example, the ruling about the benched pokemon still taking damage is correct. Suciune's Safeguard ability prevents all effects of attacks, including damage, done to it by Pokemon EX. Hydro Bombard has 120 base power and does 30 damage to two opposing benched pokemon. If the Suicune is active, it will take no damage from Hydro Bombard, naturally, but there is nothing preventing the benched pokemon from taking the damage, unless they too have Safeguard or a similar effect applying to them.

In Beedrill's case, Hard Charm and Swift Sting both go into damage calculation. The rules say "if at any time during calculation, the damage becomes 0, calculation ends." This is always assuming that all significant factors of calculation have been resolved. In general, effects from the attacking pokemon take priority against those on the defending pokemon, and increasing effects tend to apply before decreasing ones. It's also important to note when damage-changing effects say "before/after applying weakness and resistance." Beedrill would not attack for 20, be cancelled by Hard Charm and have its +40 cancelled out. Beedrill would attack for 60, resulting in 40 with Hard Charm, and then poison and paralyze the defending pokemon. Even if Swift Sting somehow resulted in 0 damage, the attack would still poison and paralyze if Beedrill was at full HP and no effects prevented it.

Stunfisk's case is a lot like Blastoise's. The active pokemon takes no damage because of hard charm (unless they have weakness to fighting or some other damage increasing factor is at play, but that's irrelevant in this case.) The benched pokemon still takes damage unless it also has a hard charm or something else to prevent it.

Once again, the main thing I'm saying here is that all effects of an attack must be resolved even if no damage is done. It is also important to factor everything into calculation before deciding the output. Personally, I find it silly that they worded it "If calculation reaches 0, it ends." because the important thing is the total output, not the moment in calculation when it reaches the high or low. Hope I helped, and if I left you confused about anything, please feel free to ask follow-up questions.
 
Can I get one more quick clarification? Tell me if I'm interpreting this right:

My opponent has Zapdos-EX in play, and uses Agility to deal damage and flip a coin to see if it's protected next turn. She flips heads, so she's dodgy and can't be hit.

I have Carbink in, and I use Crystal Barrier to protect myself. It doesn't target Zapdos, so it should go off fine and protect me if I flip heads. I do, so I'm protected.

Opponent's turn again: Can she use Agility on me again just to see if she's still evasive?

Based on the excellent reply I got in this thread, I assume that there's nothing stopping Crystal Barrier from working, and nothing stopping Agility from being used for zero damage just for the effect it gives to Zapdos-EX.

Scans (click for big)

[ E ][ C ] Agility 30
Flip a coin. If heads, prevent all effects of attacks, including damage, done to this Pokemon during your opponent's next turn.


[ fairy ] Crystal Barrier
Flip a coin. If heads, prevent all effects of attacks, including damage, done to this Pokemon during your opponent's next turn.

Since Agility and Crystal Barrier are effects done to THEMSELVES instead of the opponent's pokemon, they can be used just fine right? The clause "done to this Pokemon" means Crystal Barrier will stop the damage that agility does to Carbink, but not the coinflip to buff Zapdos.
 
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