Discussion TCG Version of Smogon

Serpens

Aspiring Trainer
Member
Basically, a question popped up in my head: Would something akin to Smogon work in the world of tcg? How would it work? What would it even do? How hillarious would it be? Etc, etc...
Any of your opinions?

(Posted here beacause I couldn't find a better place, if any Mod thinks somewhere else is suitable, then they may change it.)
 
I don't play the VGC competitively, but am I right in saying Smogon is where you can post different builds and strategies for Pokemon and rate their competitiveness, as well as informally banning overpowered ones?

I'm not sure how that would work in the TCG. The only thing you can customise in the TCG is your decklist and there's plenty of places to get examples and strategies for those (like the Deck Garage).

I guess U150 (I think it's called) is the TCG version of Smogon's alternative format.
 
I don't play the VGC competitively, but am I right in saying Smogon is where you can post different builds and strategies for Pokemon and rate their competitiveness, as well as informally banning overpowered ones?

I'm not sure how that would work in the TCG. The only thing you can customise in the TCG is your decklist and there's plenty of places to get examples and strategies for those (like the Deck Garage).

I guess U150 (I think it's called) is the TCG version of Smogon's alternative format.

Well, kind of. I do Smogon a little bit (I'd like your user name, Serpens) and it has all of the above, but it is also mainly composed of a battle simulator, where people get to build teams based off of what metagames are. each Pokemon is listed under a certain class (OU, PU, Ubers, etc.), and this can restrict what Pokemon you can use in that metagame. There are all sorts of metagames now, like AAA (Almost Any Ability- you get the picture), Anything Goes, and so on. You have access to all moves legal for each Pokemon, so it's almost a way to play the actual games without having to worry about training, trying to catch Pokemon with Hidden Abilities, and bringing in other Pokemon from the other games.

I honestly think that would be pretty interesting, but how would you show the tier of a Pokemon, and how would evolution work? (Lower evolutions usually are tiered lower than their higher-evolved counterparts.)

Also, U150 is the TCG counterpart of Anything Goes, not all of Smogon.
 
I really don't want to see something like Smogon levels of control in the TCG...
But with this thought, the idea that I've seen others think about something like this - tells me, and many others one thing: The TCG needs a re-balance. It needs something to fix how simplistic and stale it's become. I had an idea to make a fun little group where we only limited ourselves to uncommon as the highest rarity (excluding rare reprints of those uncommons). It became amazing. So many different cards saw play, and it was overall a lot more refreshing than the meta itself.

It really shows the potential certain cards can have, but at the same time there is nothing to absolutely help them. What the card game really needs is for Stage 1 and 2 Pokemon to be a lot more viable. It's asking a lot, but I think the Pokemon Company should look at their current banlist and think "What can we add to this?" for the Expanded format. Expanded needs to do exactly what it's name implies: Expand. Ironically, it hasn't done that at all. We're still seeing the same kind of decks but with little add-ons here and there. It needs to change.
 
I've been wanting to create a meta for the TCG as well that would work along side Standard and Expanded formats. If anyone wants to hear my idea, let me know. I want to make sure people are interested before I type up a wall of text.
 
Basically, a question popped up in my head: Would something akin to Smogon work in the world of tcg? How would it work? What would it even do? How hillarious would it be? Etc, etc...
Any of your opinions?

(Posted here beacause I couldn't find a better place, if any Mod thinks somewhere else is suitable, then they may change it.)
No thank you, I hate Smogon for VGC, I'd hate it for the TCG too.

"Do you have no skills at all? Come at Smogon and copy one of our sets, jelly made for all!"
 
No thank you, I hate Smogon for VGC, I'd hate it for the TCG too.

"Do you have no skills at all? Come at Smogon and copy one of our sets, jelly made for all!"

As I agree to some degree with this. For the majority of it I have to highly disagree about your approach to this.

Smogon's approach to the way it was built is made to give references and give ideas to players on how to build a team around a Pokémon. It's a great source for beginner's much like Pokebeach is for the TCG side in their Deck Garage Forum. While they are a little different, the concept in my opinion remains the same. They're made for not only users needing feedback, but for users and other members to skim through many variety of Pokémon (or deck lists) in order to possibly find a card or build they may have never thought about building their team or deck in that aspect.

With that said, it'd be hard to make a Smogon version for the TGC, why I say this is that the VGC is more a stable than the TCG in this manner because it does have numerous different competitive formats that people play on a daily basis (OU,UU,VGC, etc.) while Pokémon TCG has two, Standard and Expanded. In order for this to play out like you're wanting some aspect of the game would have to change. The most obvious is variety of competitiveness in the TCG formats, Standard and Expanded only offer very limited beck builds and snuff out many smaller decks that could thrive. The TCG itself would need to be more balanced. What I mean by this is that when a set comes out, certain cards are more favored than others because of their synergy with other big tier decks a majority of the time, keeping the same decks shuffling around for most of the season instead of helping weaker decks find a foothold against stronger builds. More feedback among the TCG community. In my opinion this is a two way street. I feel like the VGC is more widely contributed to than the TCG side of Pokémon, while there is a wide variety of players, in the years I've played, a majority of people only participate in League Challenges, Cites, States, Regionals, and obviously Nationals and Worlds. Outside of this, there are less people participating in their local league compared to getting involved in PTCGO. Of course this doesn't mean that TPC isn't to blame either in this matter.

There are a lot of things I feel like would need to be changed before something like that would function for the TCG side of Pokémon.
 
As I agree to some degree with this. For the majority of it I have to highly disagree about your approach to this.

Smogon's approach to the way it was built is made to give references and give ideas to players on how to build a team around a Pokémon. It's a great source for beginner's much like Pokebeach is for the TCG side in their Deck Garage Forum. While they are a little different, the concept in my opinion remains the same. They're made for not only users needing feedback, but for users and other members to skim through many variety of Pokémon (or deck lists) in order to possibly find a card or build they may have never thought about building their team or deck in that aspect.
You see a lot of beginners with Smogon sets and no strategy at all, no ideas about what the hell they are doing... using preconstructed teams with the same standard preconstructed move sets will not make their skills grow at all, but this is only my opinion.
 
You see a lot of beginners with Smogon sets and no strategy at all, no ideas about what the hell they are doing... using preconstructed teams with the same standard preconstructed move sets will not make their skills grow at all, but this is only my opinion.

Of course not, it's like anything else. It's how much you invest yourself in to something you want to do. If you're going to use a pre-constructed team and not learn the strategy behind it, then they're not going to go anywhere in the format. It's the same way in the VGC and the TCG. This is why I support things like Pokebeach and Smogon because they're great places to seek guidance and to improve not only yourself, but the members that are involved in every aspect of the community and is why I have so much respect for places like Pokebeach. I started the learning about the VCG a few months ago and I built a few pre-constructed teams in order to understand the game. I may not be new to Pokémon, but I was new to that aspect of the VGC double battle system. While I may be still new to the VGC side of Pokémon, I learned a lot from those pre-constructed teams and how to build around Pokémon that are a bit harder to grasp and to what my play style is. In my opinion as Smogon is to the VGC, Pokebeach is to the TCG aspect of it all and can be used to make anyone a better player, but it always boils down to their intent and devotion to something to that degree.
 
I guess I'll post this since there seems to be one interested in it. To start this of I would like to say I am a competitive player and my views on such a topic comes from wanting a balanced format; one that all players can enjoy alongside Standard and Expanded. For the record, I dont like Expanded. They should just let the BW series die.

The goal of a alternative or the one I propose is to simply bring balance to the Pokemon TCG. Unlike Smogon, I don't want to create a community where people think they have to use certain cards or decks to do well, but have a more "competitive" environment where skill matters more than luck and overwhelming an opponent. In this format, we will attempt to balance the format by removing cards from the format in attempt to break overpowered combos or cards that give too much advantage.

Rather than just banning a card, I want all cards that will be banned or "suspected" in Smogon terms to have a clear reason as to why they are banned and the reason they are or aren't banned. These questions will be;

1. Is this card deserving of a ban in Standard/Expanded?
If so, then why?
If not, then why?

2. If this card isn't worthy of a ban, can it be restricted to X amount in Standard/Expanded?
If so, then why?
If not, then why?

3. This card isn't worth of a ban in Standard/Expanded.
Why?

I feel these three questions can create a balance format if those for vote do so in good faith. Unlike Smogon, we will consider the votes of those who aren't "top tier" players since these decisions affect all players. If any card does come up for any testing, all players have the option to vote. All I would ask is that the player who votes post their skill level and or rankings on any testing threads for the cards.

Doing the votes this way lets all players speak for cards rather than those who are top level players.

For example, I don't like decks you can't practice for or have no options against. An example of this is Night March. No matter how good you are, you simply have no options to deal with this deck. The ban on Trump Card took that option away from us so the only way left to deal with the deck is to hope you're opponent doesn't draw well and you can take an early lead. This simply isn't the best way to have a balance format for in this format, Trump Card won't be banned but we will hit the cards the deck uses.

I feel the best way to do this is to take the Yu-gi-oh approach to this. Cards in Pokemon are too powerful and the draw cards allow for such combo so perhaps we hits things like Juniper and the new Shaymin EX. When deciding bans, we should ask is a card too good at a limit or is a ban appropriate. I'll use Toad EX as an example.

User one
Is Seismitoad EX ban worthy? Yes it is because it can lock an opponent out of the game as early as turn 1, making the game boring for the player under the lock since most of their options are taken away without any way to defend.

User two
Is Seismitoad EX ban worth? No its not worthy of a ban. While I do feel the card is too good at 4 per deck, I think the card is more or less balance at 1 or 2 copies per deck. The damage output if 30 or 50 is not threatening enough and can give the opponent chance of counter play. In Standard, I believe 2 per deck is balance enough in the Standard format but could be put at 1 per deck in Expanded because of HTL, though I won't be opposed to a ban

User three
Is Seismitoad EX ban worthy? This card isn't worthy of a ban because I believe its a needed card to help decks against the powerful item cards players use. Players should just look for ways of dealing with Seismitoad EX since there are options to beat it. The player can break the lock if they use the right cards.

These are just some example arguments as to why the card is banned.

When deciding if a card is banable or not, we should consider other card interactions. Perhaps Night March isn't broken with only 1 Battle Compressor allowed in the deck. An example of cards I would have on a list would be;

Standard Format

Banned

Crushing Hammer

1 Per Deck

Battle Compressor
Seismitoad EX
Shaymin EX
Professor Juniper

2 Per Deck

Lysandre Trump Card
Vs Seeker
Vileplume AO

3 Per Deck

???

Expanded Format

Banned

Crushing Hammer
Seismitoad EX

1 Per Deck

Lysandre Trump Card
Vs Seeker
Battle Compressor
Shaymin EX
Professor Juniper

2 Per Deck

Vileplume AO

3 Per Deck

???

Of course this is a test list but are some cards I would consider for it. When I think of cards that should be considered for the list, I ask myself;

1. Does this card punish normal game mechanics too hard? Things like Item Lock and Crushing Hammer
2. Is a decks strategy too dominant? Low risk High Reward decks likes Night March or others that go from "0 to 100" instantly
3. Does this card offer too much advantage? Cards like Battle Compressor, Shaymin EX RS, Professor Juniper, ect

I feel those questions are good enough ask when deciding whether or not a card should be tested and if a card(s) meets any of these, post a thread and let the community decide. The thing to remember here is this is an unofficial format to be played along side standard for those looking for more. This list will be completely community driven and decided on my the player of all skill levels. If a card does meet the required percentage to be banned or restricted, it will be placed on the list and taken into effect immediately.

The voting process should be be something like;

ban voting (If users vote X percent for vote, its banned right then and there, no further voting needed)
Restriction voting (If users vote percent is lower than the threshold for a ban, it goes into a restriction vote)

If players decide that the card should not be banned or restricted, its left as is.

When voting, players should post and evidence to support their case for whether or not they are for a card. Something like "I've played X amount of games with this card or without this card and here are my findings" or "I feel like this card isn't as strong at 1 or is too weak at 1".

Another thing this format would allow is a side deck of 15 cards to allow the player more options against different matchups, further adding more skill to the game. The side deck has all the standard rules that a normal side deck would have. Just with Expanded or if Ace Specs ever come to Standard again, the side deck will be allowed to have 1 Ace Spec as well. If needed, we can decide a new time limit for rounds to allow time for siding in and out cards.

Of course 1 man can't make a format so, like Smogon, if this is to be considered, we really need help of the community to make such a thing happen. This will require a lot of testing but I believe that together, we can create a balance metagame for the TCG and perhaps TPC will take note and do something with it or its card designs.
 
I really don't want to see something like Smogon levels of control in the TCG...
But with this thought, the idea that I've seen others think about something like this - tells me, and many others one thing: The TCG needs a re-balance. It needs something to fix how simplistic and stale it's become. I had an idea to make a fun little group where we only limited ourselves to uncommon as the highest rarity (excluding rare reprints of those uncommons). It became amazing. So many different cards saw play, and it was overall a lot more refreshing than the meta itself.

It really shows the potential certain cards can have, but at the same time there is nothing to absolutely help them. What the card game really needs is for Stage 1 and 2 Pokemon to be a lot more viable. It's asking a lot, but I think the Pokemon Company should look at their current banlist and think "What can we add to this?" for the Expanded format. Expanded needs to do exactly what it's name implies: Expand. Ironically, it hasn't done that at all. We're still seeing the same kind of decks but with little add-ons here and there. It needs to change.

Absolutely. There are just so many old cards that would really redefine the metagame. For example, I have a Machamp from Rising Rivals that has a move called Take Out. It allows you to KO the defending Pokemon if it is Basic- for just one Fighting type energy! Imagine if cards with this potential were allowed in Expanded. This would drastically change the metagame, forcing players to adapt their deck to these sorts of cards. Not to mention that it would become a staple in a large number of decks thanks to Maxie's Hidden Ball Trick and Rainbow Energy. The cards are already there. They just need to be reprinted and recirculated. But we all focus on the EX's. Don't deny it. It's obvious that the metagame has become super EX heavy with the addition of Megas. But the cards do exist that will reinstate the balance. They just can't see play because they are so old.
 
If the official format for the TCG was Unlimited, I could see how a Smogon-esque tiering system could help keep track of all the decks and potentially overpowered card combinations (of which there's many).

But in Standard (and even Expanded), cards are not only often hard-countered by later prints, but also rotated annually. This is obviously unlike the VGC which sees only minor changes to its Pokemon and attacks between games (with years between them). The TCG changes drastically with nearly every booster set in some way, and by the time we voted for tiers and bans, we'd have to start over again with the new cards.

Plus I feel Smogon really took away the creativity of the VGC. I'd rather we spent more time trying to figure out how to beat powerful decks, and less time going for the easy route in trying to get it banned from our preferred tier.
 
If the official format for the TCG was Unlimited, I could see how a Smogon-esque tiering system could help keep track of all the decks and potentially overpowered card combinations (of which there's many).

But in Standard (and even Expanded), cards are not only often hard-countered by later prints, but also rotated annually. This is obviously unlike the VGC which sees only minor changes to its Pokemon and attacks between games (with years between them). The TCG changes drastically with nearly every booster set in some way, and by the time we voted for tiers and bans, we'd have to start over again with the new cards.

Plus I feel Smogon really took away the creativity of the VGC. I'd rather we spent more time trying to figure out how to beat powerful decks, and less time going for the easy route in trying to get it banned from our preferred tier.

That is true but you do remember how long any of the BW cards stayed around before the rotation happened and even after the rotation, a large amount of those cards were reprinted. The ban list works better for expanded since we know how those older sets impacted the game but this would require a lot of active changes though. Assuming the next time we see a rotation is 2 years from now, we can still make a halfway decent list.
 
That is true but you do remember how long any of the BW cards stayed around before the rotation happened and even after the rotation, a large amount of those cards were reprinted. The ban list works better for expanded since we know how those older sets impacted the game but this would require a lot of active changes though. Assuming the next time we see a rotation is 2 years from now, we can still make a halfway decent list.
Why assume the next rotation would be in two years? They've been occurring after Worlds every year for a while now. I think it's safe to assume we'll be seeing it again next Sept.

Also most of the non-staple BW reprints occurred in Legendary Treasures, and that sort of reprint set doesn't come around very often. I wouldn't use it as a gauge for the future look of Standard.
 
Why assume the next rotation would be in two years? They've been occurring after Worlds every year for a while now. I think it's safe to assume we'll be seeing it again next Sept.

Also most of the non-staple BW reprints occurred in Legendary Treasures, and that sort of reprint set doesn't come around very often. I wouldn't use it as a gauge for the future look of Standard.

I mean early in the BW sets, we've seen many reprints of cards like Reshiram and such and these cards were reprinted so much that a rotation didn't matter much. Pretty much all it did was remove Klingkang and Eels.

As for making a list, this is clearly something that would require a lot of resources and time to get done, something Im sure most dont want to do.
 
Last edited:
Back
Top