The New Dark

blaZofgold

blaZofgold

Romans 8:38-39
Member
Looking at the HeartGold SoulSilver on format, one thing immediately stuck out: The abnormally large number of very good Dark pokemon, especially at Stage 1. I would link to them all, but there's way too many. You can find them all through Pokebeach's databases.

Tyrannitar Prime UD (The KING!)
Houndoom UD (Fighting Counter and discard)
Umbreon UD (Power/Body Lock)
Honchkrow Blindside UD (Out-powered by Mandibuzz, but it can cycle with Whirlwind)
Honchkrow Vengeance UD (Completely overpowered move lategame with T-tar)
Weaville UD (Guaranteed discard and look at opponent's hand, Faint Attack kills baby pokemon)
Houndoom Prime UD (Burn to lock powers, great damaging move)
Absol Prime TR (Lost claw for great damage, Body works well with snipers)
Liepard BW (Fast hitter, locks with Trainer lock)
Zoroark BW (Nasty plot setup, Copies opponents moves)
Mandibuzz BW (Great sniper, rips through Stage 2s)
Bisharp EP (1 for 70 plus Sp. Dark, also low retreat and great support move)
Hydreigon EP (Probably the most overpowered move seen so far. Setup with Pachirisu, DCE, Emboar, etc.)


The question is though, how would they work together?

So far, I can deduce that it's best to start out with a strong central core of Tyrannitar. Hydreigon should be partnered with other pokemon to help it get setup faster. After Tyrannitar uses Darkness Howl, it's left to Pokemon like Mandibuzz or Honchkrow to finish off the bench or Bisharp and Absol to destroy the active Pokemon. Many combinations have a sort of locking capability, which can be reinforced through the addition of a 2-2 Weaville UD to help discard the crucial cards that the opponent needs, while running enough Seekers to keep the bench low and to redrop Weaville when needed. Support cards like Unown Dark also helps Dark decks get their firepower.

So what does everyone think? Have we got ourselves a strong Dark rogue foundation, or does Darkness truly have the potential to penetrate into the metagame?
 
Dark doesn't really have much to put a niche on the metagame outside of Zoroark which is the best Stage 1 Dark Type Pokemon in the metagame because of how powerful Foul Play is just by copying any attack from the defending Pokemon as it's own. It can take out Rayquaza/Deoxys LEGEND in one hit, including Reshiram and Zekrom If you have a Special Dark attached, it even topped at Nationals in the Masters Division.

Absol Prime is pretty good, I consider it a staple in LostCario since it's more themed around the Lost Zone. As for Tyranitar Prime it's WAY too slow as Donphan Prime and Lucario can KO it easily and the Rare Candy errata has hurt it's speed since last format. I know cause I've tested it at Battle Roads (which was MD-On but that's beside the point) and in HGSS-On speed matters, why do you think Yanmega Prime was dominant in the Masters Division at Nats this year?

Mandibuzz isn't bad but with ZPS being played I don't really see it doing that well competitively and being paired with Kingdra Prime might be bad especially in that matchup when ZPS can setup very fast and donk on T1 or T2 If you're left with only 1 Basic Pokemon at the start of the game even If you have more Basics at the start they can sweep early game. Still I think Mandibuzz is solid but only If you have a way to distribute damage counters without having to attack like with Kingdra Prime and Ampharos Prime.

I do think Hydreigon has better potential as a Stage 2 than Tyranitar Prime but I still see it having the same problems setting up and Fighting is popular in HGSS-On. The only reason why Zoroark and Absol Prime don't suffer as much from it is because they are faster as Basics and Stage 1's. I really do think HGSS-On will be dominant with Stage 1's and powerful Basics even the Japanese Spoilers for Red Collection are evidence of this as well.

Stage 2's are still great and I think the best two to play are Magnezone Prime and Vileplume but only as 1 Stage 2 line instead of 2. Post-Catcher I think Magnezone Prime and Emboar (Ability) will see a decline, definitely Magnezone but I think Emboar and Vileplume will emerge well out of it all. Emboar can recover with another benched possibly Magnezone as well, while Plume just sits there and hangs out with Dodrio.
 
Well, the first thing is to either choose between Hydreigon, T-Tar, or Absol/Mandibuzz. Everything else is just support/techs.

T-Tar would be the strongest and probably most consistent. Darkness Howl spread, with Absol starter, and Mandibuzz tech pwns like a boss.

Absol/Mandibuzz would be extremely lacking is late-game power, but if you get an early Evo-lock with Archeops, you pretty much win. Especially if you run Mew Prime, so you don't get stalled by Archeops.

Hydreigon would be beast, but extremely slow. After like 3 or 4 turns, you would probably get a kill every turn. And if you run Kingdra Prime (I would not suggest it, but worth trying), just snipe the Basics if they have any, for a free prize. Either way, it has a lot of options. But also extremely slow, and a fast Donphan will murder you hands down.
 
But T-Tar has nothing on DonChamp other than Umbreon with Moonlight Fang and even then it's not that hard to get around cause they can see it coming. Post-Catcher players run more Switch or even Dodrio for Retreat Aid to counter BearPlume as well, what does that tell you about T-Tar If you Moonlight Fang and they Retreat Aid?

Even LostCario granted it gets enough of an early game setup with Relicanth Lost Zoning Pokemon to power-up Lucario and Mew Prime can take out T-Tar in one hit. T-Tar just has difficulty recovering and Catcher is going to make it worse for it.

Absol/Mandibuzz isn't bad at least it's faster than T-Tar, Eye of Disaster and then Blindside with the Buzz. All it does is snipe without having enough damage output to be feasible IMO. It's decent but I see it being a Casual deck at best, it's definitely not going to win very many tournaments.

Archeops will see little play because of the new Fossil mechanic, If you get Vileplume out before Archeops hits play chances are that Plume Fossil won't get played at all making it safe to play your Evolutions out.

Vileplume might not even be required to counter Archeops, they could fail the Search on Plume Fossil to get their Revived Pokemon from the bottom 7 cards of their deck from all the shuffling of playing stuff like PONT, Judge, Copycat, definitely Judge due to the popularity of Yanmega Prime. Budget wise I like to pair Judge with Mr. Mime cause Trick Reveal helps.
 
Another good card is Sharpedo TR. 25% chance of discarding your opponents entire hand. And with fliptini, its a 50% chance.
 
^Actually, it's 43.75% chance with Fliptini. I dunno where people are getting 50%.
25% on the first try. So there's a 75% chance you'll use Victini.
Out of that 75%, there's a 25% chance you'll get it on that try.
So it's 25%+(25% of 75%). In other words, .25+.25(.75), or .4375. Close to 50%, but closer to 40%.
 
Well, everyone is saying 50... that makes sense though. A 43% chance s still really good.
 
Scizorliscious said:
^Actually, it's 43.75% chance with Fliptini. I dunno where people are getting 50%.
25% on the first try. So there's a 75% chance you'll use Victini.
Out of that 75%, there's a 25% chance you'll get it on that try.
So it's 25%+(25% of 75%). In other words, .25+.25(.75), or .4375. Close to 50%, but closer to 40%.
Click to expand...

Ok, I'm pretty fed up with horifying math... A Victini does not make your chances of strip baring 50%! Or 43,75 for that matter!

Let me elaborate...

Probability of double-heads + Probability of no double-heads = 1

Which Implies...

1 - Probability of no double-heads = Probability of double-heads

Hence...

1 - (3/4' * 3/4) = 1 - (9/16) = 5/16 < 1/3

Which Implies... NOT 50% or 43,75% ;)


glaceon said:
Well, everyone is saying 50... that makes sense though. A 43% chance s still really good.
Click to expand...

Everyone is stupid;P
 
ATS said:
Probability of double-heads + Probability of no double-heads = 1

Which Implies...

1 - Probability of no double-heads = Probability of double-heads

Hence...

1 - (3/4' * 3/4) = 1 - (9/16) = 5/16 < 1/3
Click to expand...
No, the second time, it's not a 75% chance of double tails. You're only going to have a second try 75% of the time, so it's not going to be that entire time that you flip double tails. That's illogical.

It's 43.75%, I'll try to explain it better:

You have a 25% chance of getting double heads the first flips. Anything else, and you'll want to re-flip.

So out of that 75% chance that you DON'T get double heads the first time, you'll get double heads 25% of the time. So it's 25% on the first flips plus 25% of 75% on the second flips. 25%+25%x75%=43.75%. Simple as that.

EDIT: I decided to actually test this. So I went through the flips 100 times (as though I were actually playing Sharpedo with Victini), and I got a heads/tails split of... 46/54. Not perfect, but pretty darn close to my estimate of 43.75%.
 
@ATS: Nice try, but your math was flawed. That's not how you use complements in probability.

I love how we totally had a math war just so randomly....
 
We should make a branch model for the probability newbs, but yeah, Scizorliscious got it down, it's 43%.
(And your 46/54 practice is pretty much just as close to 43% as to 50%, so I don't really see how this proves anything =P)

Also, playing flippy cards is usually pretty stupid, but flipping being your sole game plan, that's just person. Go play roulette or something.

So yeah, for all people who don't want to bother the goddess of fate with their tournament results, we can conclude that Sharpedo is terrible, and move on.

I think we can narrow the list down to
T-tar: already a deck, failing to all decks in the format right now. Just too slow and weakness to Donkphan = fail.
Houndoom UD: it's alright, it might see play if we get a little more disruption archetype support going on. Right now we only have Slowking to slow 'em down, not the greatest if they're gonna play Judge every turn anyway.
Weavile UD: is too slow, don't even mention him.
Umbreon UD: okay as a tech, nothing more.
Mandibuzz: I don't really see this working without a spreader, which kinda forces you to play T-tar. Playing T-tar is not a good idea.
Absol Prime: is decent, there's not much lost zone support but we may be getting it sooner or later.
Hydreigon EP: Hydreigon OP, imo. Kinda ridiculous with this format, because we have much energy acceleration in Lightning and Fire, so that means you can play this bloody huge beast AND/OR Reshiram AND/OR Zekrom as backup techs. Just...crazy.
 
mandibuzz is good with kingdra. Weavile is good as techs, and Sharpedo/Slowking with Weavile, Mandibuzz, and Cinccino made it into top 128 masters. The guy wrote an article about it on 6Prizes look it up. Fliptini makes it even better.
 
I one shouted a samurott that had no damage counters on it with the vengence honchkrow. I think honckrow discard deck will have more potential when pokemon catcher comes out and when vinciti comes out it will really help scrafty and sharpedo witch you can have thouse in a honchkrow discard deck.
 
I really don't think hyd is op. Is its attack, HP, ability, synergy with abiliboat great? Heck yeah! Will catcher greatly decrease it's ability to get up and running? Yerp. Without catcher its op but with iyt its ballanced
 
If you're talking about a deck with only dark Pokemon, I'd run a stage one deck. Probably along the lines of:
Weavile UD/ Mandibuzz BW/ Umbreon UD

Attack with Weavile, retreat with free retreat to Mandibuzz to use it's first attack, and stall with Umbreon. It actually sounds like it could be an annoying deck.
 
I'd be even better if you add in Absol. Then, more of your opponents Pokemon will have damage on them, making Mandibuzz better because it can attack more Pokemon.
 
ATS Wrote:
Probability of double-heads + Probability of no double-heads = 1

Which Implies...

1 - Probability of no double-heads = Probability of double-heads

Hence...

1 - (3/4' * 3/4) = 1 - (9/16) = 5/16 < 1/3
No, the second time, it's not a 75% chance of double tails. You're only going to have a second try 75% of the time, so it's not going to be that entire time that you flip double tails. That's illogical.

It's 43.75%, I'll try to explain it better:

You have a 25% chance of getting double heads the first flips. Anything else, and you'll want to re-flip.

So out of that 75% chance that you DON'T get double heads the first time, you'll get double heads 25% of the time. So it's 25% on the first flips plus 25% of 75% on the second flips. 25%+25%x75%=43.75%. Simple as that.

EDIT: I decided to actually test this. So I went through the flips 100 times (as though I were actually playing Sharpedo with Victini), and I got a heads/tails split of... 46/54. Not perfect, but pretty darn close to my estimate of 43.75%.
Click to expand...

There is no math in luck. The probability of dual head's cannot be calculated considering it's based upon luck only, and your calculating 75% or 25% from 50%, why the duce are you pulling out lower or higher number's then the 50% that is the side of a coin, a coin does not land on an additional side that makes up that 75% - 25%, it only has two side's to it which makes it at 50% only. If you want to calculate something, choose 5 people 5 coins flip them 50 times and see the result. I'm just being realistic.


Anyways enough of ethic's, back to the actual topic at hand.

I do like the sudden increase in dark pokemon, however they seem to be more front liner's and tech's of multi type deck's then something you can come up with in combination, it just seems that way, however they seem to be increasingly effective.
 
varit said:
There is no math in luck. The probability of dual head's cannot be calculated considering it's based upon luck only, and your calculating 75% or 25% from 50%, why the duce are you pulling out lower or higher number's then the 50% that is the side of a coin, a coin does not land on an additional side that makes up that 75% - 25%, it only has two side's to it which makes it at 50% only. If you want to calculate something, choose 5 people 5 coins flip them 50 times and see the result. I'm just being realistic.
Click to expand...

probability is pure math, luck is what keeps reality from lining up perfectly with what probability says should happen. and there may be be only 2 sides to the coin, but there are 2 coins, meaning 4 sides total. so that's a 25% of each result (if you count heads then tails, and tails then heads as separate results). yes a coin has a 50% chance of being heads, but the second coin with have the same 50% chance if being tails, meaning the chance that both of them are heads is 50% x 50% which equals 25%. you get 5 people to flip 2 coins 100 times, you will find that they will both be heads about 25% of the time.

anyway, sharpedo looks like it will be a lot of fun, it wont be a meta deck at all. but it will be a fun league deck. im gonna build it.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top