Discussion Thoughts on Choice Band?

[crystal_pidgeot]

This card is something else for sure. I don't think this card should be around. Being able to deal 30 extra damage for no cost is ridiculous. It makes the time to kill way to short and with Professor Kukui around, it allows up to 50 more damage out of nowhere. I could understand if the damage output was lower, something around 90 to 120 damage but damage is higher it seems and 30 more damage just grabs kills out of nowhere.

I feel this card is a bit too aggressive but what I want to know, how do you all feel about the card? Share any stories you have, whether or not you think it deserves to be around and stuff like that.

 

[Hiker Tony]

I tend to agree. What is worse is a field blower/choice band combo, removing a fighting fury belt essentially nets a +70 damage for no cost. More if its garb and they just trashed ANOTHER item.

 

[Kietharr]

CB is pretty critical to Metagross's success story as one of the top GX decks we got out of Guardians. 150 is an otherwise awkward number that leaves a lot of big basics in the 10-30hp remaining zone. Band carries you to OHKO against most basics. The base 190 cards seem a little more uncommon, you can pull up to 200 with Kukui but you can't really rely on that play happening and the way damage numbers work out it's just not that useful. The cards you need Kukui for OHKO on are Espeon, Umbreon, Lapras, Turtornator, Snorlax, and Lycanrock. The only one of those you really see these days that isn't in an unwinnable matchup is Espeon (and that matchup is rough due to Flareon AOR).

I've been running the 1 Skyla tech in more decks these days just because Skyla > Band adds more damage than Kukui against the cards where you need to add damage, and the draw 2 effect on Kukui is pretty whatever, it's nice to be able to add 50 potentially for some decks, but honestly I'm not going to go for an aggressive play like that unless I'm closing the game with it or I have draw support options in hand for the next turn anyways. I wouldn't say it brings KOs out of nowhere because it's a card that most decks run 2-3 of, it's something you always have to think about and adds depth to a lot of matchups that are otherwise mostly autopilot 2HKO slugfests.

CB and blower did kill FFB and that's good. That card was cancer that never should have been printed. There was no reason for them to further encourage running big basics, a tool removal free format with only one damage adding tool that only basics could use was just obnoxious. I think CB is probably a little too good, mostly because it and float stone are the only tools that do something on your turn. Everything else depends on your opponent not removing it since it only does something on their turn.

For the most part, it's big basics that suffer at the hands of choice band and non-EX/GX cards and GX evolutions that benefit from it. At least it brings us away from the BW on style of meta.

 

[My Little Keldeo]

Choice Band does have some issues, but I feel it's a healthy card for the format. The game is kind of an awkward state right now, as many of the strongest decks have focused on Basic Pokemon as the main attackers, with any Stage 1 and 2 decks appearing largely as counters to those. This goes all the way back to the introduction of Pokemon-EX during the Black and White era, and has continued through the years from Darkrai-EX, Plasma, and Virizion-EX / Genesect-EX, through to the XY era with Yveltal-EX and Seismitoad-EX being the dominating force. The only deck that truly used a Stage 2 attacker which become a major player was Greininja. However, with Pokemon-GX, the format is starting to shift to Stage 1 and 2 attackers, with Espeon-GX, Metagross-GX, and the upcoming Gardevoir-GX taking positions at top tables. These Pokemon have even more HP than Basic Pokemon-EX / GX, making the extra 30 damage from Choice Band notable.

That said, we are in a sort of awkward position where Basic Pokemon decks are still prevalent, and with 180 HP Pokemon still being common, the extra 30 damage seems like a lot. The math with both Metagross-GX's and Drampa-GX's attacks is perfect to hit the "magic" 180, and Choice Band is crucial to their success. The issue right now is more how common 180 HP Pokemon are in the metagame, which isn't going to be permanent with the direction the game appears to be going. That said, Choice Band is going to remain an essential card until it rotates, but it is nonetheless mitigated by Field Blower, which practically every deck runs, and the fact that it doesn't make the math perfect with everything.

 

[TheDude133]

Choice Band is Pokemon's way of saying "we're done with the Big Basic format"

Anything you can't OHKO with a band on gets 2HKO'd without a band. So things like Metagross GX, Drampa GX, Ninetales GX, Lapras GX, Espeon GX, Volcanion EX and Turtonator GX can't be overbearing on the format. All of those cards can hit for 150 with little to no resources, so adding a band to them gives them that 180 damage that was so relevant all the way back from Next Destines.

Now that magic number is 200, some would argue 210. But the amount of cards that can hit the 200+ mark with a Band for little to no cost is very small. Solgaleo GX, Garbodor, Volcanian GX and Zoroark BREAK (Foul Play) are the only meta ones that will survive the format that can hit those kinds of numbers. Thus the reason they see more play. And why decks that have trouble breaking the 180 mold will more than likely not build the deck as a glass cannon, because it can't OHKO consistently, but now can easily get OHKO'd in return, therefore seeing a drop in win rate in those decks. (Unless the deck can out-prize trade i.e Greninja BREAK, or can survive being punched for 210 every turn, i.e Metagross GX)

 

[crystal_pidgeot]

Choice Band does have some issues, but I feel it's a healthy card for the format. The game is kind of an awkward state right now, as many of the strongest decks have focused on Basic Pokemon as the main attackers, with any Stage 1 and 2 decks appearing largely as counters to those. This goes all the way back to the introduction of Pokemon-EX during the Black and White era, and has continued through the years from Darkrai-EX, Plasma, and Virizion-EX / Genesect-EX, through to the XY era with Yveltal-EX and Seismitoad-EX being the dominating force. The only deck that truly used a Stage 2 attacker which become a major player was Greininja. However, with Pokemon-GX, the format is starting to shift to Stage 1 and 2 attackers, with Espeon-GX, Metagross-GX, and the upcoming Gardevoir-GX taking positions at top tables. These Pokemon have even more HP than Basic Pokemon-EX / GX, making the extra 30 damage from Choice Band notable.

That said, we are in a sort of awkward position where Basic Pokemon decks are still prevalent, and with 180 HP Pokemon still being common, the extra 30 damage seems like a lot. The math with both Metagross-GX's and Drampa-GX's attacks is perfect to hit the "magic" 180, and Choice Band is crucial to their success. The issue right now is more how common 180 HP Pokemon are in the metagame, which isn't going to be permanent with the direction the game appears to be going. That said, Choice Band is going to remain an essential card until it rotates, but it is nonetheless mitigated by Field Blower, which practically every deck runs, and the fact that it doesn't make the math perfect with everything.

That's how I feel about it too. I feel it deserves to exist but I think the issue I'm having is the reference to Pokemon-EX, who naturally have lower HP than Pokemon-GX and that both EX and GX Pokemon can use it. You're right about that HP thing though but I do say its nice to see that others feel the same way about the card.

 

[Latte1504]

That's how I feel about it too. I feel it deserves to exist but I think the issue I'm having is the reference to Pokemon-EX, who naturally have lower HP than Pokemon-GX and that both EX and GX Pokemon can use it. You're right about that HP thing though but I do say its nice to see that others feel the same way about the card.

Basic EX is similar to basic GX. Stage 1 GX<Nega. Stage 2 GX is slightly>big Megas.

 

[crystal_pidgeot]

Basic EX is similar to basic GX. Stage 1 GX<Nega. Stage 2 GX is slightly>big Megas.

Even the Basic GX Pokemon have about 10 or 20 more HP on average but the HP scores seem to be becoming more EX like but its more likely to see a GX Pokemon with at least 180 HP on a Basic. Being able to deal +30 would be nice if it were on the stage 2 Pokemon but on things around 180 health, Choice Band hurts. You pretty much have to go first and evolve into a Mega or your stage two to avoid getting knocked out.

 

[DarkMatterGaming]

I'm fine with it. Its basically just Silver Bangle but for Standard.

If there are any problems with it, I don't think its to do with the card itself but the cards around it.

 

[HouchinsDJ]

I think it's a necessary card for the format. It's allowed non-EX/GX cards like Greninja and Zoroark to come back into play. It also makes running Stage 1 and 2 Pokemon more enticing seeing as how they can usually take a Choice Banded hit. Field Blower also keeps it in check.

 

[TheDude133]

It also makes running Stage 1 and 2 Pokemon more enticing seeing as how they can usually take a Choice Banded hit.

Like i said, the card was made to kill Basic EX/GX pokemon. Notice how in Burning Shadows, a lot of cards hate basic pokemon. Because Pokemon wants evolution back in the format, but that can't happen with Big Basic decks running everything. so they made cards like Garbodor who is insanely cheap cost for the damage he does without being a 2 prize card. Then enter choice band to make all the 150-160 hits OHKO Big Basics, making them less enticing to play.

This thread reads into the situation way too far. It's literally as simple as TPCi wants evolution to be competitve again. That's why Marshadow is bad,, that's why Ho-oh is bad, that's why Necrozma NEEDS to play Metagross for it to be relevant. Because TPCI wants S1 and S2 in the meta. They still make good Big Basic pokemon, but Drampa GX can't kill any of the S1 one turn without Kukui, and even then some survive, not to mention the lack of OHKO range on S2. Lele GX is a support card. Bulu GX needs Vikabolt or Lurantis GX to work, and Darkrai GX isn't even the main card in Turbo Dark. Once Darkrai and Volcanion are gone, unless TPCI brings out another jacked Big Basic GX, you will see a decline in Choice Band play because you won't OHKO anything with it, so its not worth playing AS MUCH. You Choice Band to OHKO, that's it. Anything that doesn't get OHKO'd by a Banded attack can get 2HKO with two non-Banded attacks, so it's not worth using when you could play something else that works.

Now as far as the counter-argument to this, Po Town is going to ravage people. That extra two counters along with Band and Kukui puts most attacks in the 220-230 range. Which COULD influence people to play Muscle Dumbbells, but that's something we will have to see in the future.

 

[Kietharr]

1. Marshadow isn't bad, it's just a card designed for Japanese standard, which still has night march. 2 of the top 8 decks at the most recent JP event used Marshadow.

2. Ho-oh's not that bad, 190 base HP actually puts it out of base 150+choice band range and it was obviously designed with wish baton and kiawe in particular in mind. Remember how everyone thought Metagross and Drampa would both just be 'pretty good' rather than being really good and format dominating respectively because people didn't consider how important the unboosted 150 mark was with choice band around.

3. Necrozma isn't really an independent card and doesn't seem like it was designed to be, it feels like a final FU to Mega-Rayquaza and to a lesser extent a way for Metagross to sort of deal with Volcanion.

I think Po Town is their way of recognizing that they don't want to do the same thing they were doing when they were pumping up basics, they want to leave space for basic decks to exist while encouraging people to consider evolution.

 

[TheDude133]

1. Marshadow isn't bad, it's just a card designed for Japanese standard, which still has night march. 2 of the top 8 decks at the most recent JP event used Marshadow.

It's bad for our standard format. Japan's format doesn't matter when we talk about our format. The card is insane for expanded because of it's bulk and typing, but for standard, its not good.

And my narrative is that TPCi is phasing out Big Basics, meaning cards that come out in the future. Bringing up a deck that is in the past and won't be around much longer doesn't have any points for/against that narrative. It just doesn't make sense to bring it up.

2. Ho-oh's not that bad, 190 base HP actually puts it out of base 150+choice band range and it was obviously designed with wish baton and kiawe in particular in mind. Remember how everyone thought Metagross and Drampa would both just be 'pretty good' rather than being really good and format dominating respectively because people didn't consider how important the unboosted 150 mark was with choice band around.

Drampa GX and Metagross GX were always good in my eyes. Easy 180 damage with no draw backs. The only people who though they wouldnt do anything, were the people who don't understand how this game works. Ho-oh is a bad card. Even with Kiawe being a thing, it's not good. You need to get Kiawe out Turn one, or you start losing Ho-Oh's. If played in Volcanion, you're putting too many eggs in a basket that you don't need. Turtonator with a band only need two steam ups to hit 250. Ho-oh is too expensive for cards that are just simply, better.

3. Necrozma isn't really an independent card and doesn't seem like it was designed to be, it feels like a final FU to Mega-Rayquaza and to a lesser extent a way for Metagross to sort of deal with Volcanion.

Metagross doesn't need a way to deal with Volcanion. The match-up isn't as bad as the M-Scizor one was for one reason. Metagross can OHKO the backline, M-Scizor couldn't. Metagross is better without Necrozma, but Necrozma is dead without Metagross. And if you are playing a Necrozma deck with a Metagross engine, it's a completely different match-up win a different win condition for both decks.

I think Po Town is their way of recognizing that they don't want to do the same thing they were doing when they were pumping up basics, they want to leave space for basic decks to exist while encouraging people to consider evolution.

Like I said before: Now as far as the counter-argument to this, Po Town is going to ravage people. That extra two counters along with Band and Kukui puts most attacks in the 220-230 range. Which COULD influence people to play Muscle Dumbbells, but that's something we will have to see in the future

 

[Fayld]

Personally, I don't see much difference between Muscle Band and Choice Band as far as impact is concerned. In fact, I prefer Muscle Band in Expanded over Choice Band where it is warranted because the damage is consistently applied to everything.

So, I am guessing this question is meant to mainly focus on the Standard meta. Along those lines, I actually think Choice Band is necessary for the meta. There are too many 200 / 210 HP stage 1's that would be absolutely overpowering without the ability to potentially get an attack up to 1 shot range. I am specifically talking about Ninetales GX and Espeon GX, but this applies elsewhere. Now that some of the decks that would have countered this type of deck are no longer viable due to Garbodor's reign of terror, these decks would be virtually unopposed without some form of damage acceleration tool that could be played on non-basic pokemon.

I think what frustrates me about this approach is the fact that the new evolution pokemon are typically as strong or stronger than most of the mega evolution pokemon. However, these pokemon don't require the spirit links to level up and I think that puts the mega evolutions in a state where they are almost completely non-competitive now and that is frustrating. These new evolution pokemon can take advantage of things like Choice Band where megas can't without performing some field blower acrobatics to free up the tool slot or ending your turn if you don't want to use the tool slot. I realize that pokemon is moving out of that era altogether and so rules changes to how megas work flat out won't ever happen. It is pretty frustrating that many (most) mega decks never had a shot at being competitive due to the turn end rules surrounding them and now even the ones that were competitive are at such a huge damage disadvantage that they are all but unplayable. And yeah, I am aware that Mega Ray and to a far lesser extent Mega Gardevoir both showed up day 2 at NAIC, but they are the extreme outliers and neither was considered likely to proceed to top 8 and neither are expected to have a large presence at Worlds. You tack on the ability to evolve without ending a turn though and both would be exceptional choices.

Anyway, sorry for the rant. The main point I am making is that while choice band hurts big basics, it essentially eliminates mega evolution decks altogether.