Discussion To N or not to N, that is the question

21times

Aspiring Trainer
Member
Hello fellow Beachbums,

I have spent the last couple of weeks analyzing the effects of what happens when my opponent N's me, and I think I have enough data points to tell the story.

So, here we go. To start with, let me state that I specifically studied what happened when my opponent played N against me: how many cards did I have, have many cards did I increase / decrease after the N, and whether his playing N helped me, hurt me, or had a neutral affect.

That last part involves some judgment - there are sometimes when it's very clear that it either helped or hurt, but the majority of the time it was very much a grey area and not clear cut.

Basically, I weighed three factors: pokemon, draw support, and energy. I measured what I had in my hand before and what was left after. And this is where it gets murky: often times I might have a pokemon I need in my hand that gets whisked away, but I might not have had draw support before but now got a supporter I needed. Or I might have had an essential energy card taken away only to be replaced by a pokemon that I could bring into the game to help me.

Pretty much, if it wasn't very clear, then I would just give it a neutral rating, and the majority of the times I was N'd, this was the case.

So on to the data itself:

Overall, I evaluated a total of 123 times that my opponent played N against me. In 44 of these cases (36%), the N helped me, in 31 cases it hurt me (25%), and in 48 cases it was a net neutral affect - 39% of the time it neither hurt nor helped me. Looking at it from the top down, you can basically say that by playing N, about two thirds of the time, you're not going to help your opponent.

However, I would suggest that you completely ignore those numbers and dig a little deeper to find the true evaluation of this analysis.

In order to do that, I looked at the net card differential after playing the N. What I found was:

If the net card differential was -2 or less (-2, -3, -4, or -5), playing N helped the opponent ZERO times. In the twenty times where this occurred, 13 times (65%) it hurt the opponent, and 7 times (35%) it had a neutral affect.

If the net differential was -1 or less, it only helped 2 in 35 times. Bottom line: if you're leaving your opponent with less cards than he had before, there's only about a 6% chance that you're actually helping your opponent by playing N.

The flip side: if you are giving your opponent 2 additional cards or more, there is about a 75% chance that you are helping him out as well. In 18 out of 24 cases where card differential was +2 or greater, playing N actually aided the opponent.

And in cases where N only gave the opponent 1 additional card: that improved their hand 53% of the time (9 out of 17 occurrences).

Obviously, the counter argument to this is that playing N helps your hand out probably 80 to 90 percent of the time. However, this should give you reason to at least think about whether you should play N if you're giving your opponent even 1 additional card. I'd be interested in knowing how many people that stat surprised - I didn't think it was that significant. That's why I advised earlier to ignore the top level analysis - this is the most important part of my study right here: should I play N if it gives my opponent even 1 additional card?

And for the net zero situations: about half of the time it neither helped nor hurt. In 22 out of 47 cases, playing N had a neutral affect. In 15 out of 47 cases (32%) it helped the opponent, and in 10 out of 47 cases (21%) it hurt the opponent. That scenario reflects the overall numbers: about two thirds of the time, if playing N gives your opponent the same amount of cards, you're not helping him out.

So, to me, the lesson I'm taking out of this is that unless I absolutely have to, I should only play N if I'm leaving my opponent with the same amount of cards or less. I don't think I'm going to substitute any birches or Shaunas for N's at this point, but that might be something to consider. That would be a different study, and I'm not sure exactly how to work that.

Anyway, hope this at least gives you something to think about.
 
Very interesting. 123 instances is a decent sample size. It would be interesting to see a similar study done with Shawna/Birch, but like you mention it might be difficult to do that.
 
Hello fellow Beachbums,

I have spent the last couple of weeks analyzing the effects of what happens when my opponent N's me, and I think I have enough data points to tell the story.

So, here we go. To start with, let me state that I specifically studied what happened when my opponent played N against me: how many cards did I have, have many cards did I increase / decrease after the N, and whether his playing N helped me, hurt me, or had a neutral affect.

That last part involves some judgment - there are sometimes when it's very clear that it either helped or hurt, but the majority of the time it was very much a grey area and not clear cut.

Basically, I weighed three factors: pokemon, draw support, and energy. I measured what I had in my hand before and what was left after. And this is where it gets murky: often times I might have a pokemon I need in my hand that gets whisked away, but I might not have had draw support before but now got a supporter I needed. Or I might have had an essential energy card taken away only to be replaced by a pokemon that I could bring into the game to help me.

Pretty much, if it wasn't very clear, then I would just give it a neutral rating, and the majority of the times I was N'd, this was the case.

So on to the data itself:

Overall, I evaluated a total of 123 times that my opponent played N against me. In 44 of these cases (36%), the N helped me, in 31 cases it hurt me (25%), and in 48 cases it was a net neutral affect - 39% of the time it neither hurt nor helped me. Looking at it from the top down, you can basically say that by playing N, about two thirds of the time, you're not going to help your opponent.

However, I would suggest that you completely ignore those numbers and dig a little deeper to find the true evaluation of this analysis.

In order to do that, I looked at the net card differential after playing the N. What I found was:

If the net card differential was -2 or less (-2, -3, -4, or -5), playing N helped the opponent ZERO times. In the twenty times where this occurred, 13 times (65%) it hurt the opponent, and 7 times (35%) it had a neutral affect.

If the net differential was -1 or less, it only helped 2 in 35 times. Bottom line: if you're leaving your opponent with less cards than he had before, there's only about a 6% chance that you're actually helping your opponent by playing N.

The flip side: if you are giving your opponent 2 additional cards or more, there is about a 75% chance that you are helping him out as well. In 18 out of 24 cases where card differential was +2 or greater, playing N actually aided the opponent.

And in cases where N only gave the opponent 1 additional card: that improved their hand 53% of the time (9 out of 17 occurrences).

Obviously, the counter argument to this is that playing N helps your hand out probably 80 to 90 percent of the time. However, this should give you reason to at least think about whether you should play N if you're giving your opponent even 1 additional card. I'd be interested in knowing how many people that stat surprised - I didn't think it was that significant. That's why I advised earlier to ignore the top level analysis - this is the most important part of my study right here: should I play N if it gives my opponent even 1 additional card?

And for the net zero situations: about half of the time it neither helped nor hurt. In 22 out of 47 cases, playing N had a neutral affect. In 15 out of 47 cases (32%) it helped the opponent, and in 10 out of 47 cases (21%) it hurt the opponent. That scenario reflects the overall numbers: about two thirds of the time, if playing N gives your opponent the same amount of cards, you're not helping him out.

So, to me, the lesson I'm taking out of this is that unless I absolutely have to, I should only play N if I'm leaving my opponent with the same amount of cards or less. I don't think I'm going to substitute any birches or Shaunas for N's at this point, but that might be something to consider. That would be a different study, and I'm not sure exactly how to work that.

Anyway, hope this at least gives you something to think about.
Thanks for the data :). However, I think you are missing an important point, the deck(s) that are being played, and the timing of when N is played. IMO, N is one of the best disruption cards, and one of the best cards overall. N has a risk/reward system where you have to think about every action, and you have to be flexible to the situation presented to you. I can go on and on about N, so I'll get back to my original point. It depends on the decks being played. Even if the odds are not in my favor, but N will disrupt my opponent, I will play it. No hate but, *puts on glasses* I don't think N is a "Black and White" card (I have no regrets).
 
Xerneos, Guardian thanks for the kind words and support.

Swampert, you are 100% correct, N is a gamble. I guess I'm just saying that I don't think we always objectively consider the extent to which playing N helps our opponent. And I'm not saying that we need to pull every N out of all of our decks. What I'm saying is this: before I play N, I'm looking across the board at my opponent' s hand and asking myself, "What's the card differential? Can I afford to give him 2 or 3 more cards knowing that will almost certainly help him out and maybe give him the jump start he needs to win the game?"

I don't think, though, that it matters what deck my opponent is playing. I will say that if they've started Talonflame, I'm always hoping for an N so I can put those 2 cards back into the deck. But maybe I am missing something, some factor that would lead you to play N more against certain decks than others.

I guess there might be some decks, like Greninja, that like to hold cards in their hand and as such might be more vulnerable to N.
 
One thing I noticed is it lacked data on what prize counts were with the N since this does matter when playing N. Do you happen to have any data on Prize counts with numbers of one through six?

Also, whenever I play N, I always give my opponent Lysandre to win with.
 
Crystal, I'm guessing you're making a joke there (at least it made me laugh), but honestly I think that's your veteran experience coming through. I think most of us say, "Well, I'm going to N him. I'm giving him 3 additional cards, hopefully that won't help him too much." But your thinking is correct - what we should be saying is, "I really don't want to N him because that's going to give him 3 more cards than what he has now, and that's probably going to give him the Lysandre or VS seeker he needs to bring up my Shaymin. Do I have any other options than playing N?"

As for prize counts, I don't think that tells the real story, but here's the data:

1 prize card remaining: 1 time, 1 help, 0 neutral, 0 hurt.
2 prize cards remaining: 9 times, 0 help, 3 neutral, 6 hurt.
3 prize cards remaining: 5 times, 0 help, 3 neutral, 2 hurt
4 prize cards remaining: 14 times, 4 help, 4 neutral, 6 hurt
5 prize cards remaining: 17 times, 5 help, 9 neutral, 3 hurt
6 prize cards remaining: 77 times, 34 help, 29 neutral, 14 hurt

When I went into this study, I was initially looking at prize card counts, but it quickly became apparent to me that that would not be the best way to evaluate the data, so I pivoted to looking at card differentials because there simply isn't much data outside of 6 prize cards.
 
That was pretty insightful to see. I don't normal go after the math of these things but I wanted to see the numbers on lower prize counts. I guess what cards they have remaining matters as well and we could go deeper like how many VS Seekers they have remaining and such but that's for another day. Also, I wasn't trying to make a joke, it really happens. When I N someone to like a hand of one or two, they normally get a game winning card, normally Lycandre or VS Seeker and when I'm N to a low hand size, I tend to get Lysandre or VS Seeker. This also happened at League in two different games. I know its anecdotal at best but its gotten to the point to where I can expect it to happen, lol.
 
Oh sorry my apologies then for laughing at your misfortune. Lysandre is a very powerful card. I'm actually doing an extended high level test where I'm running 4 Lysandre in every deck I play this month. I don't think it's significantly increasing my win percentage on paper, but in my mind, I think running 4 Lysandre should help me win more games.

And that really gets to the heart of what I'm trying to do here. I'm a big baseball fan - baseball has TONS of stats - too many really, they've gone too far into statistics and using probability to predict the future. However, I see none of that here. There are NO studies, no analyses, no stats anywhere about trends and tendencies in this game. Look through every post here in Pokebeach, and all you find is "I think" and "I feel" with nothing behind it for support.

For example, above, you're probably laughing at me for running 4 Lysandre in every deck, but my response is, "Where is your data supporting that 4 Lysandre won't increase my overall win percentage?" There's no data on anything here, everything seems to be by people's "gut feelings" or instinctive thoughts. There is a huge opportunity here to improve play through statistical analysis, but there's no data anywhere to analyze. That's what I'm trying to do, to whatever extent I can.
 
I actually agree that it could increase you're win percentage. Running four of them means you have more options to disrupt but the Supporter game has always been something hard to figure out. I'm testing with one Lysandre and one Pokemon Catcher since to me in my games I've played in, I've only ever needed one to win the game with the rare chance of needed to play two physical copies. I'll be looking forward to what you have planned for that since the most Lysandre I've ever ran was three in a deck and that was for a very specific build.
 
It's very squishy as it's a very high level analysis, and there are other factors that might be affecting it as well (for example, I finally got a second Shaymin at the beginning of this month). I'm trying to keep track of when Lysandre is significant in games, especially when it's crucial in victories. Unfortunately, I don't think it's as simple as just looking at wins and losses for particular decks. I'll probably publish something around the beginning of December, but I don't think it's going to be as hard and fast as the stats out of my N study here.

I have tried pokemon catcher but never really did an analysis on it. I would say that it seemed to flip tails more times than not, but that's ridiculous. I will say that I frequently ended up throwing it out early in the game because of ultra ball or sycamore. It might be worth revisiting, though. That's part of my justification in running 4 Lysandre is that even if it klunks up my hand early, I can always play a Lysandre stall and pull up a Hoopa or Volcanion or something that just doesn't have any energy on it. I will definitely say that I've been using the early Lysandre stall A LOT more this month. However, the flip side of that is that that Lysandre could have been a draw support card that probably would have helped me more than the Lysandre stall did.
 
Hello Beachbums - just want to give you an update an a little bit of a one off I've been working on related to this.

So I've started counting the number of cards that I actually got when I played N, and it averaged out to 5.58 cards per play, which is just slightly more than you would get from Birch. I was just wondering if I actually drew more cards with N than with Birch, I thought it would be a lower number than that, that N would produce less cards than Birch, but the data is what the data is.

The bigger issue I'd like to point out, however, is the surprising amount of times that I'm giving my opponent more cards than he previously had. Over the course of playing N 162 times, 58% of the time I gave my opponent more cards than he previously had in his hand. 11% of the time I gave him the same amount, and 31% of the time I was able to use N as a weapon and reduce the number of cards in his hand. This is something you may want to seriously consider: almost twice as often (95 to 50), I actually gave my opponent more cards than he previously had before I played N. Connected to my previous analysis above, this means that I significantly helped my opponent A LOT.

Now, obviously there are plenty of arguments to be made for defending N: the late game N to reduce your opponent to 1 or 2 cards, the late game N to put more cards back into your deck to prevent running out of cards, the fact that you can draw 6 cards early in the game without having to discard any cards, and the fact is that it probably helps your hand 80 to 90 percent of the time you play it.

All I want to say is that this is the data, the data clearly points to the fact that by playing N, there are significantly more times that it is helping your opponent than hurting him. I'm not telling you to go pull all of your N's out of your decks and replace them with Birch, but, in my opinion, it's definitely something that's worth considering.

Hope this doesn't blow things up, and, like I said, there are plenty of reasons to play N... it's just that there might be more reasons not to.
 
All I want to say is that this is the data, the data clearly points to the fact that by playing N, there are significantly more times that it is helping your opponent than hurting him. I'm not telling you to go pull all of your N's out of your decks and replace them with Birch, but, in my opinion, it's definitely something that's worth considering.

Just reminding anyone jumping in that as always, the data requires context for proper interpretation. I've been grinding a lot on the PTCGO the last few weeks, and the short version is it isn't always about how many cards you give your opponent, but what cards you give your opponent. I've had massive hands dropped down to one or two cards by N and that helped me, usually because I had a hand full of cards I didn't need but also didn't want to discard with Professor Sycamore, but suddenly bam I was down to like a VS Seeker or Professor Juniper/Professor Sycamore.

Another thing to consider is how often do you show more discretion when it comes to N and its variable-but-predictable result of X cards in hand for you, Y cards in hand for your opponent versus Professor Birch's Observations which will always yield four or seven cards. I find myself electing not to use N unless I think it pretty important or I'm still at the higher end of things for this reason, but with Professor Birch's Observations I can be a bit more reckless since at worst I get a four card hand (or seven if I was trying to replenish my deck from my hand), without having to worry about how it affects my opponent.
 
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