Help Wally in Unlimited

[Umbra0118]

Hi all,
First post here so apologies if this is the wrong place to ask this.

My question is about the Wally supporter trainer card in the unlimited format (I understand it’s not allowed outside of that, but my group plays unlimited). It allows you to evolve 1 of your Pokémon into a Pokémon in your deck. It specifically states “you can use this card during your first turn or on a Pokémon that was put into play this turn.” Now at the time this card was released I believe the newer rule about not being able to play supporter cards on your first turn if you take the first turn was not in place. So at the time of release it was not written to get around this rule. However, now that this rule is in effect would you say you can play it on your turn if you take the first turn based on that text? Sorry if that doesn’t make sense.

Basically, based on current rules about not being able to play supporter cards during the games first turn, can I still play Wally?

 

[snoopy369]

If you're playing unlimited, I think you can make your own ruling on that. I suspect this would get an errata if it were still legal in any played format saying it was only allowed to play first turn if you go second; but you're probably right, RAW, it's legal to play turn one.

 

[Otaku]

Basically, based on current rules about not being able to play supporter cards during the games first turn, can I still play Wally?

No.

Now at the time this card was released I believe the newer rule about not being able to play supporter cards on your first turn if you take the first turn was not in place. So at the time of release it was not written to get around this rule.

As you also stated, it was written that way to let players know that you could use this form of Evolution acceleration on a player's first turn, unlike its contemporary Evosoda. Now, if you and your group want to handle it differently, Team Compendium isn't going to bring a SWAT team to your next gathering.

To explain my position, though, remember there are two guidelines when interpreting older card effects in the modern game:

• You need to understand what terms meant what when the card was released
• You need to apply the modern rules

It is a bit like how, if you use Vileplume (HS - Undaunted 24/90), you understand that its Poké-Body only prevents Item cards from being played, even though the card itself reads

Poké-BODY: Allergy Flower
Each player can’t play any Trainer cards from his or her hand.​

at the time Vileplume released, the term "Item" hadn't been coined, but what had happened was that Stadium cards and Supporter cards treated as non-Trainers. The core Pokémon/Trainer/Energy divisions became Pokémon/Trainer/Stadium/Supporter/Energy. Likewise, if you're using a Supporter-Supporter or Stadium-Stadium from this period, you play them as Trainer-Supporters or Trainer-Stadiums, respectively.

 

[snoopy369]

No. As you also stated, it was written that way to let players know that you could use this form of Evolution acceleration on a player's first turn, unlike its contemporary Evosoda. Now, if you and your group want to handle it differently, Team Compendium isn't going to bring a SWAT team to your next gathering. To explain my position, though, remember there are two guidelines when interpreting older card effects in the modern game:

• You need to understand what terms meant what when the card was released
• You need to apply the modern rules

It is a bit like how, if you use Vileplume (HS - Undaunted 24/90), you understand that its Poké-Body only prevents Item cards from being played, even though the card itself reads

Poké-BODY: Allergy Flower
Each player can’t play any Trainer cards from his or her hand.​

at the time Vileplume released, the term "Item" hadn't been coined, but what had happened was that Stadium cards and Supporter cards treated as non-Trainers. The core Pokémon/Trainer/Energy divisions became Pokémon/Trainer/Stadium/Supporter/Energy. Likewise, if you're using a Supporter-Supporter or Stadium-Stadium from this period, you play them as Trainer-Supporters or Trainer-Stadiums, respectively.

You might want to make it a bit more clear what you are answering - I spent the last five minutes composing a reply to you based on you saying the exact opposite of what you're actually saying.

I do think though that this is not as cut and dried as you say - if this were another Vilelplume case, we'd have a rules clarification or even an errata. Unlimited doesn't get that sort of support, of course, and I don't disagree that the ruling *would be* what you say, but I don't think that it's necessarily *actually* that if we were to have a tournament right now with that format.

 

[Mora]

Unlimited format is a completely different format for every tournament director, not that there are many of them these days. One TO specifically banned PoryDonk. It's basically the wild west.

 

[Otaku]

You might want to make it a bit more clear what you are answering - I spent the last five minutes composing a reply to you based on you saying the exact opposite of what you're actually saying.

I say this with all due sincerity but... do you want to be a bit more clear in what caused the problem? When you tell me it was confusing, I believe you, but I'm not 100% certain where. XP

I do think though that this is not as cut and dried as you say - if this were another Vilelplume case, we'd have a rules clarification or even an errata. Unlimited doesn't get that sort of support, of course, and I don't disagree that the ruling *would be* what you say, but I don't think that it's necessarily *actually* that if we were to have a tournament right now with that format.

Again, I'm confused by what you are saying. XD

I gave what I believe to be the correct ruling on the matter. I didn't say there was no chance I was wrong.

We understand Wally's based on what its wording meant when the card was last released. Is it possible they could rule Wally as a Supporter you could use on a player's first turn? Absolutely. I can only go by the English wording of the card, and the general guidelines for rulings as presented in English. It is possible the Japanese text doesn't support any of this, and it is possible someone in a position of authority could decide "Naw, let Wally be broken in Unlimited. Doesn't affect us!". I don't read or speak Japanese (learning it has been on my "To do" list for... 25 years? XP), and while I can sometimes cheat with a translation app, not this time. XP

Oh, and there is one official ruling for the Vileplume in question, at least that I could find in the Compendium BW:

Allergy Flower (Vileplume - Undaunted)

Q. Can I still play Supporters or Stadiums while Vileplume's "Allergy Flower" Poke-BODY is in effect?
A. Yes. They are not Trainers. (HS:Undaunted FAQ; Sep 9, 2010 PUI Rules Team)
​

Note the date. This is from before the Black & White rule changes were announced, let alone before they went into effect. This is from about a month after Vileplume released, when we still had five core card types (Pokémon, Trainer, Stadium, Supporter, and Energy) versus three (Pokémon, Trainer, and Energy). They were just clarifying for folks who were still confused by the rule change from Gen III to Gen IV... which had happened about three years prior. I wasn't citing some special circumstance for Vileplume, but using it as an example of the general principle.

As my last post was confusing, let me be clear: while I'm explaining myself, I'm doing so because I want you to let me know if I have misunderstood something.

 

[snoopy369]

@Otaku I'm not saying I think you're wrong. I'm saying I read your post and initially thought you meant the opposite of what you said. "No" by itself isn't very clear - even with the quoted post above - it would be helpful if you would make it clear that you think the answer is "No, Wally could not be played turn one."

 

[Otaku]

I'm saying I read your post and initially thought you meant the opposite of what you said.

Yeah, I got that. I just wasn't sure what was making it confusing.

"No" by itself isn't very clear - even with the quoted post above - it would be helpful if you would make it clear that you think the answer is "No, Wally could not be played turn one."

How about now? While not the exact change you suggested, the "No" is now isolated, so it is clearly in response to the specific question.