Standard Water-Toolbox (Seagull´s Toolbox)

[mirdo]

I was finally able to get my account confirmed after i think more then 2 Weeks and now I, the one and only mirdo, can post the deck i am currently working on.
So yeah. This bit of a diffrent build of a water-toolbox. I think?
I would like to play this deck at the next regional and i feel like it needs some more work. At least in the Trainer Card department

##Pokémon - 12
* 1 Dragonite-EX EVO 72
* 2 Porygon EVO 71
* 2 Glaceon-EX FAC 20
* 2 Manaphy-EX BKP 116
* 3 Palkia-EX BKP 31
* 2 Regice AOR 24

##Trainer Cards - 32
* 2 Great Ball BKP 100
* 3 Rough Seas PRC 137
* 3 Trainers' Mail ROS 92
* 1 Professor's Letter XY 123
* 3 Lysandre FLF 90
* 1 Brock's Grit EVO 107
* 3 Team Flare Grunt GEN 73
* 2 Ninja Boy STS 103
* 2 Max Elixir BKP 102
* 3 Fighting Fury Belt BKP 99
* 2 Tierno PHF 107
* 1 Professor Birch's Observations PRC 134
* 2 Dive Ball PRC 125
* 2 Professor Sycamore PHF 101
* 2 VS Seeker PHF 109

##Energy - 16
* 13 Water Energy XYEnergy 9
* 3 Double Colorless Energy XY 130
Total Cards - 60

So Pokémon wise i kinda went the "save" route. Take the well known and used Regice, Palkia EX and Glaceon as a core.
The others are kinda intresting. Dragonite i thought wouldn´t hurt. It gives quite the damage. Takes are bit to build up but shouldn´t be that big of an issue with Palkia. Also i can use the effect if needed.
The Oddball of the group is probably the Porygon. I´ll admit that the Meta in Europa atm is kinda scary. So i thought. I´ll surprise some people. Use Porygon to change the Weakness to Water an usually kill most things with Palkia then if they don´t switch. (or Lysandre them back in. Bcs a switch doesn´t end the effect. I think only a Ranger could nullify it?) Worked kinda alright in the TCGO actually
Manaphy i put back in after i put the Porygon in. Because now i need the "Moveability". Need to have it on a FFB so it doesn´t immidiatly die doe.

Trainer Cards i went a litte wild. And thats prob the biggest part i need help with. I´ll explain my logic with some of the weirder ones
- I went with Great Balls instead of Hyperballs bcs i thought it´s prob enough to get a Porygon maybe. Also kinda easy way to shuffle through the deck and also get other Pokemon into my hand.
- Prof. Letter was the case of "1 Couldn´t hurt can it?" Most Energy will come through Palkia. But if i need Energy in Hand im.. the f word
-Brocks Grit is similar to the letter. But with the logic that i need the energy in the deck for Palkia to do work. So i thought. Alright i´ll just put one of those in there.
- Birch Observations and Sycamore. Those are my biggest Problem almost. Because i can´t decide which one and how many. I increased Sycamore due to me playing a mega in this deck before i switched it so i can take advantage of the Mega Turbo

Energy i´ll need quite a lot. So i think 16 is a good number.


Any feedback is appreciated. Please excuse any weird spelling mistakes and maybe random capatilsations because of my german heritage.
I really want to get gud at this. So some more Ideas are nice as i want to try to play this on a high level (aka the Regional in Leipzig in a weeks time)

Note: I do not have a Shaymin or Hoopa in my possesion. Also i don´t really think you need those 2 due to the avability of Dive Balls. At least not in this deck
Note²: Can i plug my Twitch here? Bcs i usually build on this deck there every odd day. Not familiar with the rules :S

 

[jessalakasam]

Remove Porygon for Shaymins and try to remove 2 other cards for 2 more VS Seekers

 

[Creez]

Remove Porygon for Shaymins and try to remove 2 other cards for 2 more VS Seekers

you didnt read everything did you?
he said "Note: I do not have a Shaymin or Hoopa in my possesion. Also i don´t really think you need those 2 due to the avability of Dive Balls. At least not in this deck"

i would remove the great ball and add 4 dive balls instead, or 3 dive balls 1 ultra ball for draconite

 

[mirdo]

Yeah like Creez said i try to run it without Shaymin. But the Porygon is a bit of a risk. I know that.

In case of VS Seekers i agree. But like i said. I dunno really about the trainer cards. Thats the big problem for me right now. I would prefer to switch something around there.
Maybe go for more VS Seekers, Maybe an Extra Ninjaboy. Something like that

 

[Creez]

Yeah like Creez said i try to run it without Shaymin. But the Porygon is a bit of a risk. I know that.

In case of VS Seekers i agree. But like i said. I dunno really about the trainer cards. Thats the big problem for me right now. I would prefer to switch something around there.
Maybe go for more VS Seekers, Maybe an Extra Ninjaboy. Something like that

-2 great ball
-1-2 lysandre
-2 tierno

add, N, Vs seeker, more sycamore for draw

 

[mirdo]

So you´d say that N > Birch Observation´s? With my experience you help the enemy more with that then you do damage. Except for when he is far in the lead i guess. Might put at least one in.

And with sycamore im kinda split. Because my deck is , in comparision to other´s, kinda heavy on energy. So if i draw my hand full with it i´d rather shuffle back don´t i? I guess when Palkia works like it should. That won´t happen... hmm

Also i had that many Lysandre´s so i have some "Breathing Room"
Because i only play Basic Mons. So f.e. i can kinda counter a Jolteon. But i might rather go with Poke Ranger there i guess

Also if you want to talk about the Porygon only. I set up another Thread HERE

 

[Otaku]

This... is going to get long. I am better at seeing an issue like what to add or what to remove than at doing both at the same time. In fact I will put the large amount of text behind Spoiler tags so you can look for why I made the changes, without being turned off by the sheer bulk of the explanation.

Spoiler

The Oddball of the group is probably the Porygon. I´ll admit that the Meta in Europa atm is kinda scary. So i thought. I´ll surprise some people. Use Porygon to change the Weakness to Water an usually kill most things with Palkia then if they don´t switch. (or Lysandre them back in. Bcs a switch doesn´t end the effect. I think only a Ranger could nullify it?) Worked kinda alright in the TCGO actually

How often is this better than pursuing a typical 2HKO strategy? Some decks are skilled at healing so you must score a OHKO or it will be no KO, but for most this is not an issue. Porygon needs deck space, an Energy, uses up an attack, and is small enough to be a OHKO. If Porygon remains up front and takes the hit, then your attacker does not and that can be useful, but overall the combo seems too slow to be worth the effort. Given you are relying upon some attackers with protective effects, adding another target that will lack such protection could actually hurt your chances of winning. Besides Pokémon Ranger, your opponent can force you to waste "Conversion 3" by delaying your attack the next turn; the chance to Weakness only lasts until the end of your next turn, so if your opponent can strand something up front or take out your only ready attacker, you will have wasted an attack.

- I went with Great Balls instead of Hyperballs bcs i thought it´s prob enough to get a Porygon maybe. Also kinda easy way to shuffle through the deck and also get other Pokemon into my hand.

How is this working out in practice? If the primary purpose of Great Ball is to snag Porygon and Porygon is really worth it, then the chance of it failing seems too great to me. I guess it is also the only card you run which may search out Dragonite-EX as well. I have to question if either of these is truly necessary to your deck. I just wrote out why Porygon is not worth it; why do you need Dragonite-EX? It proves useful for decks that need to get two Basic Pokémon back from the discard pile and to hand right away. If you only need one card there is the Item Buddy-Buddy Rescue, though it also lets your opponent get a Pokémon from his or her discard pile back as well (this usually doesn't matter). If the Pokémon doens't need to hit the hand, then Max Revive instantly returns it to your Bench, but again this is only one Pokémon and not two. Super Rod is basically half of a Brock's Grit as an Item, and of course you already have Brock's Grit; you'll need to get the Pokémon back from your deck but you will likely have other cards to help with that, and this gives you a way to also recycle basic Energy cards.

If you don't drop these two, then you really need to replace Great Ball with Ultra Ball. Yes there is a two card discard cost, but you ought to have enough spare cards like unneeded extra copies or TecH for the current game or stuff you can afford to recycle (like basic Energy) to pay the cost of two Ultra Ball. If you lose these Colorless Pokémon, you don't even have to sweat that and can just run four Dive Ball.

- Prof. Letter was the case of "1 Couldn´t hurt can it?" Most Energy will come through Palkia. But if i need Energy in Hand im.. the f word

As you run three copies of Trainers' Mail, it might not be a bad idea. It may also help to cut a Basic Energy to add a second copy of Professor's Letter or an Energy Retreival; either means Trainer's Mail has the potential to get Energy you need into hand. Your deck uses all Basic Pokémon, so instead of either you might wish to add more Max Elixir. The main reason I am not certain about that approach is your deck lacks stuff like Shaymin-EX to increase the amount of cards drawn in a single turn... important for hitting more than one Max Elixir in a single turn.

Still, I went with two Max Elixir instead in my proposed fix, but if those don't work, then try Professor's Letter and/or Energy Retreival if you are really having this much trouble getting basic Energy into hand. I mean it shouldn't happen all that often in a well built deck, and the amount where it does occurr due to bad luck is usually not worth a full card slot to remedy.

-Brocks Grit is similar to the letter. But with the logic that i need the energy in the deck for Palkia to do work. So i thought. Alright i´ll just put one of those in there.

Generally you want one card that can reclaim some Pokémon and basic Energy cards from your discard pile; Brock's Grit makes some sense. It makes more sense if we can increase the amount of VS Seeker in your deck. You really ought not get to attack with Palkia to accelerate Energy too many times in a row; the pacing of the game means you'll need to shift to another attack after just one or two uses of Aqua Turbo. I realize you run three Team Flare Grunt to slow your opponent down, but using them means you're not using a draw Supporter yourself, limiting your own setup. If it somehow all works out, okay, but I'm skeptical.

- Birch Observations and Sycamore. Those are my biggest Problem almost. Because i can´t decide which one and how many. I increased Sycamore due to me playing a mega in this deck before i switched it so i can take advantage of the Mega Turbo

I could see maybe one Professor Birch if you are really worried about both the discard cost of Professor Sycamore and the potential of N helping your opponent. It is very hard to tell how much of a difference N makes for your opponent unless you are playing a friend who will tell or show you his or her hand, and you know his or her deck. Sometimes I've been helped by an opponent when my hand was poor and they used N but sometimes shuffling away my hand has saved my opponent as well. It also doesn't always matter how many cards; sometimes I have drawn into six card hands that were far worse than the smaller hand I had before, and sometimes I'll have a larger hand cluttered with stuff I don't need but my opponent's use of N leaves me with just one card in hand... and it is a Professor Sycamore.

Anyway, so I left one Professor Birch in, but added N and more Professor Syacmore. I am not fond of Tierno; it may be why some things were and were not working for your deck; to avoid shuffling away your hand, discarding your hand, or possibly helping your opponent, you were settling for a very small amount of draw. It isn't just the quantity of cards you may draw that matters, but how large of a chunk of your deck you are getting from the draw.

Energy i´ll need quite a lot. So i think 16 is a good number.

How much will you need in play at a single time, though? The thing about basic Energy cards is that they are quite easy to reclaim from the discard pile. As stated an opponent using a good deck usually won't give you that many turns where you'll be able to use Aqua Turbo without your opponent pulling significantly ahead in Prizes. Having a Bench full of fully prepped attackers doesn't do you any good if your opponent just took his or her sixth Prize. I ended up adding in more VS Seeker because seriously, you needed more than two. Hypothetically an incredibly streamlined deck might get by with just two, but most decks should be running three or four. This doesn't directly tie into Energy, but I needed to mention it... plus two extras is another two chances to use Brock's Grit if you are really concerned about having to discard too much Energy earlier in the game. I still left a lot of Energy in your deck though. Especially if you aren't upping your Max Elixir count, you may be able to cut another one or two safely.

Note: I do not have a Shaymin or Hoopa in my possesion. Also i don´t really think you need those 2 due to the avability of Dive Balls. At least not in this deck

You are only running two Dive Ball in your own list. Shaymin-EX is used because of the added draw power it provides, which in turns greatly speeds up a player's setup via its Ability of the same name. This doesn't just mean snagging extra Pokémon; usually that is easy. It mostly means getting more Items into hand more quickly (because you will usually be able to use them right away), and making it easier to get away with using your Supporter on something that isn't draw power. I think this deck would benefit from Shaymin-EX quite a bit, should you ever get some we can discuss what to cut to make room for them.

Note²: Can i plug my Twitch here? Bcs i usually build on this deck there every odd day. Not familiar with the rules :S

Not sure; I am thinking "no" but you should ask a moderator. It might be a matter of whether your Twitch includes Pokémon or not. To give you an idea, I write Card of the Day reviews for a different Pokémon website, but I cannot link to them even when we are discussing that exact card and I just want to save others and myself from me having to rewrite everyting I said in the review. I could be mistaken, however, especially if your Twitch has little or nothing to do with Pokémon.

##Pokémon - 11
* 3 Glaceon-EX FAC 20
* 2 Manaphy-EX BKP 116
* 3 Palkia-EX BKP 31
* 3 Regice AOR 24

##Trainer Cards - 34
* 3 Rough Seas PRC 137
* 3 Trainers' Mail ROS 92
* 2 Lysandre FLF 90
* 1 Brock's Grit EVO 107
* 1 Team Flare Grunt GEN 73
* 1 Ninja Boy STS 103
* 4 Max Elixir BKP 102
* 3 Fighting Fury Belt BKP 99
* 3 N FCO 105
* 1 Professor Birch's Observations PRC 134
* 4 Dive Ball PRC 125
* 3 Professor Sycamore PHF 101
* 4 VS Seeker PHF 109
* 1 Olympia GEN 66

##Energy - 15
* 12 Water Energy XYEnergy 9
* 3 Double Colorless Energy XY 130

Total Cards - 60

 

[jessalakasam]

you didnt read everything did you?
he said "Note: I do not have a Shaymin or Hoopa in my possesion. Also i don´t really think you need those 2 due to the avability of Dive Balls. At least not in this deck"

i would remove the great ball and add 4 dive balls instead, or 3 dive balls 1 ultra ball for draconite

My bad, didn't have much time :/ but they would help a lot especially Hoopa (who you can get for only $10

 

[mirdo]

Dude. Otaku that´s a lot of text. But i really really appreciate you reading so deeply into it. As i gotta go to the tourney on friday and running a bit despreate. So nice of you.

So:
Yeah Porygon is pretty much to "distract" and just force the enemy to do anything really. Just throw something against the meta and see if it sticks. Because worst case i lose Porygon. Which is one Price Card. But i possbly can take out one of their main damage dealers because none of my Pokémon can 1HKO anything really. And because i have the "free" draw back with Manaphy.

On TCGO it works well. Especially with the Ninja Boys. Because of Regice and Glaceon i can just pretty much switch it what ever i need in that situation. With, the increased VS Seeker and Lysandre gives me a lot of control. Potentially.

And Dragonite logic is: Attach Energy easy with Palkia and/or DCE and Dragonite does quite the damage plus getting rid of Energy. Which could help bcs i need to 2 HKO everything. And i lack DMG dealers. The only one is Palkia else

Problem is TCGO is prob not a good representation if my deck works or not. Because people there are not even close to that level. Especially the decks not.
I didn´t go wih 4 Max Elixir because out of exp. with it on tcgo i thought i won´t have much energy to draw with it.



I´m kinda happy with my deck. It´s fun and super mobile. But i get that it needs improvement if i want to make any wave in Leipzig. And i appreciate all your guys help <3
Will look at it tomorrow and prob work on it on stream again.
Make a copy of it. Give yours a spin as it is right now. Then try to see what works best for me.


Edit: I was suuuper sleepy. I wrote that near midnight. So imma go into Porygon and the main focus of this deck. Because the text i wrote yesterday maybe wasn´t that understandable.


For me i thought about the Porygon as an distraction. As a gimmick if you wanna call it that. If my opponent want to force the switch into my DMG Dealer and kill him. Granted. He would likely do that anyway. But with this i force him to adapt. To change his style and probably waste some precious Supporters and/or to DC Energy so he can retreat. I feel like the fact that he knows that this mon can or will be dead next round can be a psychological advantage. If that makes any sense. Also with all the Ninja Boys and VS Seekers i have. I´ll just have any attacker ready next round. Even if takes out the prepared one. I´ll switch my Porygon (that´s has at least one energy at this point) with f.e. Regice.

So pretty much what i thought about this deck is that it just focuses on mobility. And Substain with the Rough Seas.

Like i said Otaku. I will try your build today.
But of what i see right now i´ll prob at least try to get the Dragonite back in maybe.
+ Ninja Boys
- Max Elixers (1-2)
-1 N + 1 Birch (i dunno. It just happend to me so often that i was helped by a opposite N so im kinda Biased)
Also why did you increase the Glaceon up to 3? Do you figure that that´s going to be a main player?
I have 3 in my possesion so that´s not a problem.